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Clanpot Shake posted:I just noticed something in the DH2 rules that bugs the hell out of me. Armor now limits your maximum agility bonus. Feudal plate is the worst offender, capping it at a low 2. I guess nobody at FFG saw that youtube of those guys doing backflips and cartwheels in plate armor? Even if that is a pretty common thing in Fantasy RPGs or any system that involves medieval armor. 
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Jul 29, 2013 21:46
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Clanpot Shake posted:I just noticed something in the DH2 rules that bugs the hell out of me. Armor now limits your maximum agility bonus. Feudal plate is the worst offender, capping it at a low 2. I guess nobody at FFG saw that youtube of those guys doing backflips and cartwheels in plate armor? Sounds like they hired someone from the D&D team.
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Jul 29, 2013 22:13
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I have a mild interest in trying to GM an Only War game, but even though I've been in a campaign as a player I'm still not entirely rock-solid on all the rules. If someone was to start up a game, though, I'd be on that in a heartbeat. (Depending on the day/time, obviously.)
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Jul 29, 2013 22:28
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But those guys in the youtube videos ARE hindered by the armor. They don't have as full of a range of motion and their bodies cary a lot more momentum. I mean not to the point that they flail like turtles on their back but a 2 AB can considered average for a regular person. Instead of being flat 2 it should have been -1. With an AG of 4 you're dancing like Micheal Jackson and it shouldn't be that way in full plate.
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Jul 30, 2013 00:18
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Does it limit your agility score, or just the bonus? I can't remember it being used for much other than Initiative (unless you're using Perception or Intelligence) anyway. Or have they decided to make it critically important now?
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Jul 30, 2013 00:52
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goatface posted:Does it limit your agility score, or just the bonus? I can't remember it being used for much other than Initiative (unless you're using Perception or Intelligence) anyway. Your move speed was dictated by your agility bonus in OW.
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Jul 30, 2013 00:54
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Ah, of course. Yeah, having that limited at 2 would be an arse.
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Jul 30, 2013 00:57
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Jack B Nimble posted:But those guys in the youtube videos ARE hindered by the armor. They don't have as full of a range of motion and their bodies cary a lot more momentum. I mean not to the point that they flail like turtles on their back but a 2 AB can considered average for a regular person. Instead of being flat 2 it should have been -1. With an AG of 4 you're dancing like Micheal Jackson and it shouldn't be that way in full plate. Why shouldn't it be that way? Are you speaking from personal or academic experience or is that just how you imagine plate armor functions? I'm not trying to make this personal, I just think this is a dumb design choice. Everything I've read about how plate armor actually worked runs counter to the idea that it hindered movement significantly. In game terms, it weighs a ton and there's already a penalty for carrying more than you're able (You need a Strength bonus of 5 to even wear the stuff without being encumbered).
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Jul 30, 2013 01:56
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It's 40k. You know what their Plate Mail probably is? Someone sees a picture in a really old book of Feudal-Era knights wearing Plate Mail, and without any inkling of where and how to distribute the weight, what metals to use, and how to make proper articulated joints, they got a body-glove and then tied a whole heap of scrap metal onto it and stamped it with a fancy logo.
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Jul 30, 2013 11:52
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I suppose it has more to do with game balance issues than future-historical accuracy. Without (an artificial) drawback, would wearing armor be the Right Choice in every situation? And Yoshimo is probably right, if it's anything like everything in the 40th millennium; You'll be wearing an overly-ornate cathedral suit (with no helmet) designed to look impressive in your tomb rather than to keep you out of it. I'll be picking this up Friday, but has someone already compiled a list of biggest differences?
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Jul 30, 2013 12:21
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The point is moot; nobody ever uses that poo poo anyway.
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Jul 30, 2013 13:07
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That's almost a challenge I feel like taking...
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Jul 30, 2013 20:10
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Feudal world arbitrators get to start with plate shirts, don't they? I'd rock that 
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Jul 31, 2013 00:33
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Well, their Q&A says the first thing they're focusing on is working kinks out of the Wounds and Armory systems, so these things might see adjustment soon.
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Aug 1, 2013 04:36
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Night10194 posted:Well, their Q&A says the first thing they're focusing on is working kinks out of the Wounds and Armory systems, so these things might see adjustment soon. To be fair the combat numbers are one of the most minor issues that can easily be fixed by just hammering it out.
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Aug 1, 2013 04:47
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They really need it, though. Especially the AP costs on many of the weapons, the wound severity levels, and how to handle powerful single shot weapons vs. rapid fire. It's all eminently fixable, but it really needs attention first and foremost. And hopefully they'll decouple Agility Bonus from melee Rate of Fire. Agility does enough in 40kRP already. It doesn't need to make your power sword attack faster than an automatic weapon, too.
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Aug 1, 2013 04:52
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Night10194 posted:They really need it, though. Especially the AP costs on many of the weapons, the wound severity levels, and how to handle powerful single shot weapons vs. rapid fire. It's all eminently fixable, but it really needs attention first and foremost. And hopefully they'll decouple Agility Bonus from melee Rate of Fire. Agility does enough in 40kRP already. It doesn't need to make your power sword attack faster than an automatic weapon, too. It's honestly some of the less important problems with the game is what I'm getting at. I mean the whole 'introduction of big mechanics without clear applications when we have a long track record of not supporting of even completing new mechanics in the past' seems like a much bigger problem to me. EDIT: Actually the thing i'll be most interested in is if they ever get around to putting a scenario in the book. kingcom fucked around with this message at 05:02 on Aug 1, 2013 |
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Aug 1, 2013 04:57
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Nobody might use plate mail, but I recall chainmail being surprisingly useful in the original book. I think with the rounding up of primitive armor it ended up giving you 2 amour points. Anyway personally I wouldn't put an AB penalty on armor I was mostly just trying to interpret their choice and suggest how it might be toned down. What I'm more curious about is what other armors get an AB cap. Like someone said who wear full plate anyway, but if the AB on say Guard Flak is capped to 3 or 4 that will affect a lot more people. I can see where maybe they're trying to make two different ways to defend yourself, either being good at dodging or having a lot of armor, but if they don't offer any other rule changes aside from this cap then it's hard to see as it anything other than a nerf to defense in a game that's already taking away wounds. Still, I'm just thinking at loud since I haven't seen the rules yet. I'm definitely looking forward to playing in another Dark Heresy game. Oh, here's a topic that makes me salivate-how's the weapons list? Did they cut it back down from Rouge Trader/Black Crusade, or is there still a nice selection? Anything missing? Anything new? The Dark Heresy vanilla list is quite scant but I figure that's mostly just because it was the first game, but maybe they'll try to get the weapon list slimmed down for this new release to recapture the low-power spirit of the game.
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Aug 1, 2013 13:54
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The next lowest AgB restriction is Carapace armor, which caps Ag at 4. There's a couple 5s (notably flak armor), a 6, and some weak armor that has no cap. The weapon list is almost item-for-item the DH1 core list, but with weapon customization rolled in. Basically customization affects the availability of an item, so you go out looking for a Common Quality Boltgun (-30) with a Targeter (-20), which comes out to -50 before any other modifiers. There's also a lot in the way of custom ammunition. Basically, there's a small number of weapons but with ammo and customization they can be very different.
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Aug 1, 2013 14:11
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Weights and carrying capacity seem all out of whack. If we build a basic Arbite, they start with a Shotgun (5kg), Enforcer Armour (15kg) and some Manacles (1kg). They have some other stuff, but it's weightless, so 21kg before they make any of their starting acquisitions. Let's just give him a sword (4kg) for close combat and an autogun (5kg) for things at longer range. Final gear weight at creation is 30kg. A strength bonus 3 character has a carrying limit of 20kg before they count as encumbered. At 4 it's 30kg, and at 5 it's 60kg. At character creation you aren't meant to end up with more than 45 in any characteristic. Our guy is at his maximum weight limit already. If you're a guardsman, your strength bonus counts as 2 higher when calculating carrying capacity, so at character creation you could have SB6, a carrying weight of 120kg. You can probably carry more than the entire rest of your group combined. If you get your Strength to 50 (not that hard if you're a 'Warrior' or 'Assassin'), you can carry 250kg without issue. There is a distinct possibility that if you play with encumbrance rules, your group will require a guardsman just so they can act as a pack-mule.
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Aug 1, 2013 14:48
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Clanpot Shake posted:The weapon list is almost item-for-item the DH1 core list, but with weapon customization rolled in. Basically customization affects the availability of an item, so you go out looking for a Common Quality Boltgun (-30) with a Targeter (-20), which comes out to -50 before any other modifiers. There's also a lot in the way of custom ammunition. Basically, there's a small number of weapons but with ammo and customization they can be very different. Its got a few more weapons, equipment, modifications and custom ammunition than the dark heresy base book but the customization stuff has been in all versions of the game. My new favourite part of this edition is that the influence section is such a mess. It implies that being impolite/poor behaviour in a high society gathering is 1/5th as bad as wrongfully declaring an exterminatus on a planet. Alternatively it implies that defeating a greater demon is worth 5 influence while the 'adventure' at the back of the book tells you to give your players 5 influence for removing heresy from this backwater planet nobody cares about. I mean yeah this stuff is all numbers randomly thrown in at this point but its just a giant mess and I'm honestly not sure how you use it without it falling into the Rogue Trade 'I don't know how much do I want the players to grow now. X amount? I'll give them X amount of influence.' Or better yet, give them X amount of money so you dont randomly screw players who fail the rolls!
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Aug 1, 2013 15:09
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goatface posted:Weights and carrying capacity seem all out of whack. Speaking of which, are the "container" items (combat vest and backpack) supposed to add to your carrying capacity? If they are that would go some way towards making it possible to walk around with your starting gear. Also when you get a gun, does it come with ammo? Is ammo handled like it was in Rogue Trader, where you have "probably enough" or do you need to count every round? I note none of the starting equipment includes ammo.
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Aug 1, 2013 15:21
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From DH2:quote:When a character attempts to requisition custom ammo, he specifies which weapon it is for, and each successful requisition test obtains up to 2 full clips of the desired ammunition. Why the words "up to" are present is a mystery to me.
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Aug 1, 2013 15:26
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It says that standard ammunition for a weapon is as rare as the weapon itself, but I can't find anything about ammunition weight or whatever. I'd probably just assume they always have two reloads unless they're deliberately impeded from supply.
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Aug 1, 2013 15:34
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Another interesting note about requisitioning items is that if it has a negative availability modifier, the group loses Subtlety equal to the tens digit of the availability. There are only six items in the ranged weapons table that do not have a negative modifier: laspistol, lasgun, autopistol, autogun, bolas, and crossbow. For melee, there are five: chainblade, chainsword, knife, sword, and staff. Anything else you're losing subtlety, and most customizations will knock these items into the negatives. Armor is even worse - anything past hiver leathers (2 head/3 rest) will lose you subtlety. Now, going around buying heavy weaponry would obviously draw some attention, but this rule applies to anything you requisition. Buying drugs from a shady slinger? 1 to 3 Subtlety gone (humorously, the injector/inhaler you need to do those drugs does not cost you Subtlety). Photo-visor or chamelioline cloak (and other items which would help you act with subtlety)? 2 and 3 Subtlety respectively. Want a combi-tool? -2. Microbeads for the squad? -1 a pop. The forgery kit has the dubious honor of inflicting -3 Subtlety while not actually being described in the rules. I understand what they were going for with these rules, but this is kind of a mess.
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Aug 1, 2013 15:59
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It's a very complicated system for something that shouldn't be much more than a quick scribble of "very inconspicuous" on the GM's notes.
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Aug 1, 2013 16:06
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goatface posted:It says that standard ammunition for a weapon is as rare as the weapon itself, but I can't find anything about ammunition weight or whatever. I'd probably just assume they always have two reloads unless they're deliberately impeded from supply. Being able to obtain a few rounds of rare ammo is a thing on more than a few 40k novels, it should exist in the game too.
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Aug 1, 2013 16:20
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Special ammunition, yes. I'm talking about the regular stuff. You might want to restrict things like bolter ammo, plasma flasks, melta canisters etc, unless your team have access to an Imperium facility that knows who they are, but I don't see the point in tracking the purchase of every las-pack and box of shotgun shells.
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Aug 1, 2013 16:25
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How does that "up to 2 reloads" thing work for guns with very low ammo capacity? A pair of lasgun packs, 120 shots in total would last you several sessions of the meatgrinderiest combat but gently caress walking out of the hunting goods store with exactly 2 crossbow bolts.
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Aug 1, 2013 21:20
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An acceptable amount to both parties? It's not some set in stone thing, it's a general suggestion to give people an idea of how much ammo they have. It's a vague tool to stop people dropping into a pre-feudal society and then insisting they should have an infinite supply of bolter shells or plasma flasks because "the rules say so".
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Aug 1, 2013 21:34
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I suppose I just didn't notice the kinks in Influence or Subtlety because I'm so used to ignoring Endeavors and other, similar stuff and was just planning to eyeball it all anyhow, as I'm used to doing in FFG's games. Yeah, it's a bit of a mess, but from past experience I doubt it'll be fixed and so I've mostly focused my attention on the stuff that has a chance to change and be properly supported, like combat mechanics.
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Aug 1, 2013 22:12
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Night10194 posted:I suppose I just didn't notice the kinks in Influence or Subtlety because I'm so used to ignoring Endeavors and other, similar stuff and was just planning to eyeball it all anyhow, as I'm used to doing in FFG's games. Yeah, it's a bit of a mess, but from past experience I doubt it'll be fixed and so I've mostly focused my attention on the stuff that has a chance to change and be properly supported, like combat mechanics. Right thats my similiar thoughts, except thats going to mean I don't bother transferring over to this game because one of the core gameplay mechanics is a mess. I mean if I'm already eyeballing it, why learn to eyeball something new and not something I already know how to eyeball? goatface posted:An acceptable amount to both parties? And how much is that? What if the GM wants to run the 'your low on ammo' scenario and the player being informed of the scenario and mission says "well obviously I'm going to buy up 2000 shotgun shells just in case, cant buy more locally after all." What does the game want to be about? Having stuff be expensive and based on thrones in Dark Heresy made the system about being pretty low on resources and having the players scrounging around for money and supplies. In Rogue Trader they made standard ammo essentially irrelevant as the game isn't about scrounging and more flaunting wealth. The game mechanics foster different types of behaviour so what does Dark Heresy 2 want you to do? kingcom fucked around with this message at 12:02 on Aug 2, 2013 |
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Aug 2, 2013 00:05
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Night10194 posted:I really love Only War because you actually have to fight much more like a soldier. Like, you're always looking for cover, never advance on a heavy weapon without suppressing, grenading, or smoking it, you have to rely on combined arms, and most importantly, everyone in your party has a certain baseline of skills and shared competencies, plus gear. Like, if you're a Guerilla regiment, you all have Stealth, and so you should be using it, even if some of you aren't quite as good at it. Honestly, whenever possible, you should be trying to ambush people in OW as much as possible, because you really need to fight on your terms instead of theirs if you can. This sounds awesome, and I am really interested in the warhammer40k rpgs in general (I'm a 40k player) but I've never had the chance to play. I don't think there are many groups for this sort of thing in the UK as opposed to America.
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Aug 2, 2013 20:02
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Considering that the UK is the birthplace of games workshop, I'd assume there is a lot of players? I know of at least a couple of groups here in Denmark, so why not the UK?
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Aug 2, 2013 20:14
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I let my players make their own OW regiment, they went with high quality swords, shields, and light carapace armor. 
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Aug 2, 2013 20:36
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I ended up with a bunch of drug-injecting convicts. Wonder what that says about our friends?
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Aug 2, 2013 21:01
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Jack B Nimble posted:
Bolters get to have better penetration than a melta gun, though they're probably better off going with the felling ammo given in DH2 it halves toughness bonus. It's also got an (X) so it might be meant to reduce toughness bonus by X but the text says half - so one of them is wrong. Bionics seemed shorter as a list than DH core and everything's been toned down (get bonus for x rounds rather than constant).
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Aug 2, 2013 23:20
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Tardcore posted:I let my players make their own OW regiment, they went with high quality swords, shields, and light carapace armor. Your players are good people. Making OW regiments is so much goddamn fun. I do it sometimes when I have nothing else to do, just for fun and future NPCs for other warzones.
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Aug 3, 2013 05:22
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goatface posted:It's a very complicated system for something that shouldn't be much more than a quick scribble of "very inconspicuous" on the GM's notes. Yes, looking at the description I felt my eyes glaze over and my inner GM went "wing it, that's just useless book-keeping."
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Aug 6, 2013 12:19
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The first update for the DH2 beta has been released: http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_news.asp?eidn=4288
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Aug 8, 2013 15:20
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