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etalian posted:It's more pro to subsidize home rental such as in the Vienna model. Definitely a more eloquent description than mine. Ty sir
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Jul 15, 2013 04:59
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It's not really home ownership more like home debtorship.
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Jul 15, 2013 05:15
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This doesn't sound like a very ringing endorsement of his own policy, since generally both Swiss and Americans want to own houses, and yet, many more Americans than Swiss are actually able to realize their dream of house ownership. The goal of any public policy should be to maximize the standard of living of the average citizen, so how is this policy that leaves the majority of Swiss in a state of relative misery a good thing? In general I'm in favour of any policy that gives the average citizen the ability to take on more leverage, since that evens the playing field between them and the big financial institutions.
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Jul 15, 2013 06:35
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^ That people want houses and are willing to gorge themselves on credit in order to get it is not a sufficiently good reason that we (and all the other Anglo countries) should set up all this infrastructure to ease the ability of everyone to own homes. I realize it buys votes, however.
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Jul 15, 2013 12:28
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Throatwarbler posted:This doesn't sound like a very ringing endorsement of his own policy, since generally both Swiss and Americans want to own houses, and yet, many more Americans than Swiss are actually able to realize their dream of house ownership. The goal of any public policy should be to maximize the standard of living of the average citizen, so how is this policy that leaves the majority of Swiss in a state of relative misery a good thing? Because looking at a home as some sort of wise investment like stocks or a handy piggy bank creates a bad mentality for people as shown by the 2009 recession. It's also not leverage for additional investment in the financial sense most people in the US used the home equity to pay for things such as vacations, college bills or even more home upgrades. Basically subsidizing home ownership through things such as the US mortgage interest deduction encourages bad long-term financial behavior which cancels out any benefit from "improving the standard of living". A better goal for a country would be something similar to the Vienna model or at the very least not encouraging a devastating boom-bust cycle in real estate. At least in the US it's another case of deja vu: http://www.jsonline.com/business/home-equity-lines-of-credit-are-starting-to-make-a-comeback-av98oq7-199691851.html
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Jul 15, 2013 13:20
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Throatwarbler posted:... since generally both Swiss and Americans want to own houses, and yet, many more Americans than Swiss are actually able to realize their dream of house ownership. Citation required as that doesn't bear any semblance to the Swiss folk I know. (On either wanting or being unable to purchase.) e: VVV Ahh there is it, thank you. ocrumsprug fucked around with this message at 17:18 on Jul 15, 2013 |
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Jul 15, 2013 17:10
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orcrum, it's in the article. Survey saying 80% of swiss folk want to buy.
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Jul 15, 2013 17:11
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This 80% thing is a red herring, IMO. It doesn't refer to people who necessarily wistfully desire to own a house, and cannot. It's described in an "all else being equal" sense - I don't see how it's any different from me being of the opinion that, all else being equal, I'd like to have my own swimming pool, or all else being equal, I'd like to own a pony. In practice, there are significant hassles, and disincentives, and expenses in the way - but I'm not losing much sleep. I could make it happen if I really, really wanted to.
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Jul 15, 2013 18:07
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Ok without splitting too much hairs, what you're saying is that the survey is invalid because you might as well ask, 'well who wants to be warren buffett'.
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Jul 15, 2013 21:21
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Cultural Imperial posted:Ok without splitting too much hairs, what you're saying is that the survey is invalid because you might as well ask, 'well who wants to be warren buffett'. Yeah, I guess so. Basically, any conclusion from it which has the phrase "the majority of Swiss in a state of relative misery" is likely a vast overstatement.
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Jul 15, 2013 21:40
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I want my own personal airship to get around in, I demand the entire country build its self up around this concept and massively subsidize it. This may lead to a balloon bubble.
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Jul 15, 2013 22:56
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Baronjutter posted:I want my own personal airship to get around in, I demand the entire country build its self up around this concept and massively subsidize it. This may lead to a balloon bubble. Well, yes, by definition, it will lead to a balloon bubble. How else are you going to lift your airship?
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Jul 22, 2013 02:32
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http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2013/07/29/political_economy_of_homeownership_a_disaster_area.htmlquote:Adam Posen had a smart piece over the weekend about the economically damaging cult of home ownership in the U.S. and U.K. focused mainly on the problems with home ownership promotion as financial policy. I'd like to extend the argument by noting how disastrous this policy dynamic is for housing policy. The goal of housing policy ought to be to bolster real living standards by making housing abundant and affordable without unduly siphoning resources off from other segments of the economy. If houses get cheaper, bigger, or better-located, that means real wages are rising—exactly what we want. 
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Jul 30, 2013 15:50
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Baronjutter posted:My wife on the other hand does not. She wants big windows and sun and a little more space. She wants to not be so close to her in-laws even though they don't really interact with us, it's more just the principle. She also works in insurance (how the gently caress doesn't this guy know about condo insurance eh?) and every day she's writing policies for people beaming about their brand new house or condo. She also works with people who recently bought, or have ties to real-estate so all she hears is that we're not in a bubble, that the bubble will never burst because *best place on earth*, and that as a young couple we NEED to buy a "starter home" to start building equity (this is the hugest bullshit). All I have to counter is "well see some people on something awful said... no honey we can't they'll pee on me... no your co-workers realtor husband is wrong and these goons are right because they just are, they like know math and all these financial terms I don't understand, trust me!" You should sever, clearly your wife is cheating on you with real estate developers. Have you considered therapy? My mother recently bought a house. She went through a divorce and they split the proceeds from the old one. I tried desperately to get her to rent but she insisted that "renting is for fools, I'm at a point in my life where I can own!" I can see where this mind set came from. The family house she sold literally tripled in price since they bought it; yet she refuses to believe that there could be a real estate bubble "because the nice realtor says there isn't" 
Rutibex fucked around with this message at 03:03 on Jul 31, 2013 |
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Jul 31, 2013 02:56
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Cultural Imperial posted:http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2013/07/29/political_economy_of_homeownership_a_disaster_area.html Yeah something like the Vienna model makes more sense to focus on affordable housing for everyone instead of constant cycle of boom and bust speculation. Plus probably a good idea to getting rid of the incentives such as interest deduction for all the dangerous credit entanglements that result from people being able to take HELOC out on their bubble houses.
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Jul 31, 2013 17:11
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So we have a new financial planner guy and he told us to absolutely wait at least 2 years before buying anything because you'd be stupid to buy now. Interest rates are almost certainly going to start t creep up and he also agrees something has to give in regard to unsustainable housing prices in the region not even being close to the typical wages a city would need to support them. I think finally hearing it from an "expert" helped convince her. He also said our current situation is a huge huge blessing and if we can bare it, $300 a month rent is something you grab onto with a death grip and never let go of. We decided to throw 1/3 of our downpayment fund (which was sitting uselessly in a savings account) into a car, but then realized with .99% financing it actually made more sense not to pay cash and instead invest the money. We are basically getting paid to finance the car. So now ALL the money is in various conservative and moderate investments and our guy estimates we'll be pulling in 2-4k extra a year from it, which is an awesome amount of money for us! That's like 1-2 extra months of income. So condo money is now tied up in investments that we'd be stupid to touch for at least the next 2-3 years, plus we now have a 2 year car loan, and finally both parties seem to have accepted to not even think about buying or look at condos till then. All is well!
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Jul 31, 2013 17:21
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Good man. Pay it forward the next time you hear a Gen Y person you know about to commit financial suicide.
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Jul 31, 2013 17:29
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Fine-able Offense posted:Good man. Pay it forward the next time you hear a Gen Y person you know about to commit financial suicide. I tried with my friend in Vancouver but she's buying a condo now. She got pretty upset saying that renting is throwing away money, that it's always been her dream to own, prices keep going up so she's a fool not to buy now because if she waits she'll be priced out, and also it's not about the money it's about the piece of mind knowing you own. It's also in a lovely neighbourhood far away from jobs and friends. When people are just thinking about it you can talk them out of it, but when they've been bitten and have decided to do it any attempt to change their mind generally just gets them really emotional.
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Jul 31, 2013 17:35
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Are there any sources that can ballpark what different housing markets are about to do, as well as interest rates? My wife and I moved to Winnipeg, both landed decent jobs and really want a house. We need/want the sort of work space you can't get in a condo (a place to dry soggy tents and gear after a camping trip, storage for outdoor gear, a workshop etc). Houses here are affordable, even if rates go up 2%, but if I'll get a better deal by waiting a year or so, I'd rather do that.
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Jul 31, 2013 17:47
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Holy gently caress prices are cheap there. 150k will buy you a really nice looking 3br house in an ok looking neighbourhood. That doesn't seem very bubbly to me. If prices were any lower I'd worry about the city going Detroit.
Baronjutter fucked around with this message at 18:09 on Jul 31, 2013 |
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Jul 31, 2013 18:07
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EvilJoven posted:Are there any sources that can ballpark what different housing markets are about to do, as well as interest rates? For people relocating I would recommend at least renting a full-year to make sure the job pans out Ok, city quality life is good and it also gives you more time to scope out the neighborhood. Baronjutter posted:I tried with my friend in Vancouver but she's buying a condo now. She got pretty upset saying that renting is throwing away money, that it's always been her dream to own, prices keep going up so she's a fool not to buy now because if she waits she'll be priced out, and also it's not about the money it's about the piece of mind knowing you own. It's also in a lovely neighbourhood far away from jobs and friends. Most people don't realize from math perspective the first few years of home ownership is throwing away money since the principal amounts are really low for the first years of 30 year fixed loan. Plus the whole stupidity of moving into the not so nice neighborhood away from things such the job location or good local amenities just to experience the home ownership hype. etalian fucked around with this message at 18:19 on Jul 31, 2013 |
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Jul 31, 2013 18:15
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Baronjutter posted:Holy gently caress prices are cheap there. 150k will buy you a really nice looking 3br house in an ok looking neighbourhood. That doesn't seem very bubbly to me. If prices were any lower I'd worry about the city going Detroit. One of the reasons why we moved here. The economy is doing OK without any of the boom and bust poo poo and you can afford a really nice place on a reasonable middle class household income. Coming from Toronto it's still quite a shock. We lucked out. Our first choice was Saskatoon because my wife liked it better and she's in construction. She saw the housing boom in Saskatoon as a ticket to a decent job but landed one in Winnipeg instead. Now Saskatchewan is hosed because Potash prices are going through the floor. etalian posted:For people relocating I would recommend at least renting a full-year to make sure the job pans out Ok, city quality life is good and it also gives you more time to scope out the neighborhood. I'm trying to convince her of the same thing.
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Jul 31, 2013 18:15
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Winnipeg... ...is not immune.
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Jul 31, 2013 18:22
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Dear Penthouse, Should I buy a house in the middle of a obvious bubble?
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Jul 31, 2013 18:37
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Counterpoint: Winnipeg is literally the worst place in Canada, even worse than Vancouver. Why would anyone willingly live there? Q.E.D. no bubble is possible. Anyway you guys sure are angry about other people buying things they like because it raises prices and reduces supply for yourself.
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Jul 31, 2013 19:19
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Throatwarbler posted:Anyway you guys sure are angry about other people buying things they like because it raises prices and reduces supply for yourself.
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Jul 31, 2013 19:40
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I have a couple of friends that want to buy a house too. I've tried convincing her, and I think she would actually be fine not buying, but he's really of the opinion that the definition of success in life is buying your own home, so it's basically a lost cause. I'm just kind of hoping they don't have enough money for a down payment until the market crashes.
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Jul 31, 2013 20:05
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Throatwarbler posted:Anyway you guys sure are angry about other people buying things they like because it raises prices and reduces supply for yourself. Umm, I don't give a gently caress about people buying anything they like. I do give a gently caress about the economy tanking when the house of cards collapsing, and the government approaching the taxpayer, cap in hand, for money to bail out the CMHC or banks or both.
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Jul 31, 2013 20:57
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Throatwarbler posted:Counterpoint: Winnipeg is literally the worst place in Canada, even worse than Vancouver. Why would anyone willingly live there? Q.E.D. no bubble is possible. The Canadian Housing Market since January 2013: 1) Housing supply is high as hell. It's at a loving all time high in every major city except Calgary. 2) Prices are going down. About -3% in Vancouver. Q.E. D.
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Aug 1, 2013 06:49
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Interesting article in thestar.com today about the glut of new $1m+ condos on the market in Toronto. Estimates 2yrs to work through the oversupply. Itshappening.gif
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Aug 2, 2013 18:01
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Well if it doesn't, that's OK. We can all live in shipping containers.  http://bc.ctvnews.ca/wee-wonders-container-condos-could-solve-housing-woes-1.1394516 As a comment below the article says, "$850/month to live in a recycled 300 square foot shipping container. Only in Vancouver."
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Aug 2, 2013 21:37
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PK loving SUBBAN posted:Interesting article in thestar.com today about the glut of new $1m+ condos on the market in Toronto. Estimates 2yrs to work through the oversupply. Prices can only get higher.
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Aug 3, 2013 01:49
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etalian posted:Prices can only get higher. I don't think that's how supply and demand works.
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Aug 3, 2013 01:59
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PK loving SUBBAN posted:I don't think that's how supply and demand works. Tortonto is the best place on earth, therefore, demand will increase indefinitely, and with it price. You just got econ-served, 
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Aug 3, 2013 02:01
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Wait a minute, wait a minute, Vancouver is already the best place on earth! They can't both be the best place on earth!
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Aug 3, 2013 02:02
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Best place west of the Rockies?
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Aug 3, 2013 02:10
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Just you wait, when the Toronto Maple Leafs win the Stanley Cup and the parade goes past all the condos, people will scoop them up like there's no tomorrow!
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Aug 3, 2013 04:26
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r/vancouver is doing a victory lap right now over the july housing recovery. Wrap it up real estate market bearailures.
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Aug 3, 2013 05:38
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Cultural Imperial posted:r/vancouver is doing a victory lap right now over the july housing recovery. Cultural Imperial posted:r/vancouver is doing a victory lap right now over the july housing recovery. Was there actually a recovery or was it just not disastrous? I really haven't paid attention the whole summer. Surely people aren't still trading $3M houses like poker chips?
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Aug 3, 2013 06:38
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Its below the ten year average but above recent months on a seasonally adjusted basis. Likely a combination bear trap and the last few idiots with preapproved mortgages at the old lower rates desperate to "lock in the savings" before they expire.
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Aug 3, 2013 06:44
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