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Reverend Dr
Feb 9, 2005

Thanks Reverend

Len posted:

I'm pretty sure it is. I think he says the name somewhere in the gibberish subtitles.

If you don't rush to the time tomb, then his model will spawn and start examining around it. You can target him. He's named. It is absolutely him. The only people that could argue otherwise post on the TSW forums.

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LITERALLY MY FETISH
Nov 11, 2010


Raise Chris Coons' taxes so that we can have Medicare for All.

Booblord Zagats posted:

Ok, so I picked up the game on sale from Steam and really like it so far. I've put together a build which seems to be doing pretty well for soloing and ending fights with enough HP to last another few rounds if I pull adds, etc, but in the interest of expanding my ability and understanding I was hoping I could throw it out to you guys and see if it will still work later down the line. (build here http://thesecretsandbox.com/Deck?abilities=,561,582,542,139,137,109,105,132,136,138,551,553,110,112)

The main idea is to start each fight building up a flame strike, then using the buff from High Strung to pop the anima charge and score a cheap heavy and free crit with Hammer, then just keep chaining to flame strikes until the target drops with plenty of critical strikes along the way and a decent barrier/heal if poo poo turns south. The AoE builder is just there to mow down groups faster and still drop flame strike after getting 3 resources. And a nice stun in Cardiac to handle any major hits that I can stop

I was curious if there's going to need to be major/minor changes once I get to Transylvania or anything I could do that would help out more. This isn't the build I take in dungeons, just to clear that up

Well, for starters half of the things in trans are immune to impairs, so don't count on being able to use them. I was using a sword/blood impair build when I first got to transylvania, a tweaked version of the preacher deck, but when I got there everything kicked my teeth in.

Secondly you're basically only using one weapon, which is a hugely inefficient. There's a reason every build suggested is builder, finisher 1, finisher 2, then utility stuff. Your build has to be a lot leaner than what you've got. There are better survivability abilities in blood that don't require resources to use, and failing that turn the tables is probably the most useful survival ability in the game.

You're using strike attacks, but you don't have any strike passives to make use of them. When you read an ability and it has an underlined word, like strike, burst, or focus, that's the type of ability it is, and other abilities will affect it. You can search the wheel for those keywords and bring up all of the abilities that either are that type of attack, or buff those types in some way. Unfortunately, blood has no strike attacks, so you might want to consider swapping blood out for either hammers or shotguns.

If you really like blood/elementalism, you can make a build involving afflictions and using chain attacks. Something like Boiling Blood to build with, Blood Spike and Blaze for finishers, then your choice of utility from either tree, but probably things like turn the tables from survivalism, there will be blood from possession, and anima charge so you can abuse mind over matter. Choose passives that work with afflictions, which is another key word, and crit for mind over matter, like circulation so you can heal yourself through damage, etc.

Basically, try to stick to 1 builder, 2 finishers, some utility, and passives that all work with your builder/finishers. Don't try to add in other stuff that you might need, because you can swap things out as you actually need them. That's the entire point of having all of those utility slots, you can put in what you need at the time. There's a reason you get a big achievement for not changing builds during a dungeon run.

OneEightHundred
Feb 28, 2008

Soon, we will be unstoppable!

Bauxite posted:

If you really like blood/elementalism, you can make a build involving afflictions and using chain attacks.
Don't do this, afflictions don't scale with pen/crit which makes them really pretty lovely aside from taking one easy-to-apply one to trigger bonus effects (i.e. Clearing the Path, Blaze).

Blood/Ele is actually a really good spec, but what makes it good is that you can take Finish the Movement and Bloodline to spam out Bloodshot non-stop, and use low-resource consumers in ele (Blaze, Flame Strike, Mag Wipe) to both boost your average attack damage and keep Highly Strung up.

Also if you really need a defensive ability on that, get Expulsion.

Blood/Ele is also mainly for ST, if you want an AoE spec for soloing then take Blade because Clearing the Path is just way too good.

guppy
Sep 21, 2004

sting like a byob
Chains are also garbage for anything but AOE, so you mostly won't be interested in them.

LITERALLY MY FETISH
Nov 11, 2010


Raise Chris Coons' taxes so that we can have Medicare for All.

OneEightHundred posted:

Don't do this, afflictions don't scale with pen/crit which makes them really pretty lovely aside from taking one easy-to-apply one to trigger bonus effects (i.e. Clearing the Path, Blaze).

Blood/Ele is actually a really good spec, but what makes it good is that you can take Finish the Movement and Bloodline to spam out Bloodshot non-stop, and use low-resource consumers in ele (Blaze, Flame Strike, Mag Wipe) to both boost your average attack damage and keep Highly Strung up.

Also if you really need a defensive ability on that, get Expulsion.

Blood/Ele is also mainly for ST, if you want an AoE spec for soloing then take Blade because Clearing the Path is just way too good.

I should have put in the caveat of "I'm terrible at this game" because I am, and I've never used the chain abilities so v:shobon:v but I agree that Expulsion is amazing.

My point was more that he should pick up on those key words and abuse them in some fashion, because you kind of have to just to get through the game.

Variable Haircut
Jan 25, 2012

HughGRect posted:

Looks like our August monthly item is a Venetian mask, and something about a werewolf pup pet.

New cash shop items on live as well, the ladies get a couple dresses and the fella's get bare chests. One step closer to the mankini.

Called it last month, new subscriber item is out.

Plague Dynasty
Aug 20, 2006

find revelations in life
find satisfaction in death
So I'm about halfway through Solomon Island I'd assume, finished the Amusement Park and just about to finish the school and have the mission to go to Blue Mountain for the main story. Right now my build is looking like this and I'd appreciate any feedback. It seems to be working out half decently but I've wasted a ton of points (at least until I recuperate the AP/SP)

Actives: Suppressing Fire, Fire at Will, Both Barrels, Lock and Load, Breaching Shot, Turn the Tables, Slow the Advance
Passives: Eagle Eye, Immortal Spirit, Gnosis, Extra Clip, Sharp Shooter, Hit & Run, Probability

Its a real mishmash of AR/Shotgun/Blade and Chaos trees. I have the Chaos and Blade basic trees maxed out with the AR/Shotgun trees maxed out with some into the subsections, I was hoping to get Twist the Knife soon but I feel like I'm dumping points randomly. My Blades and Chaos are both at 6 and my AR/Shotgun is at 8 with my Talismans at 3 each because I don't really have a great one to wear besides a QL10 one called The Snake that is really good health/pen/crit with a free slot that I got by a group randomly letting me do the Elite Transylvania dungeon after I accidently queued for it.

I feel like my actual stats are pretty bad at the moment.

609 AR
73 Hit
89 Pen
Some crit and crit severity

Should I just grind out and go hard into the AR builds posted before or switch this up. I love the ability to kind of spec whatever but picking and choosing at what feels right to me doesn't seem to be working.

Plague Dynasty fucked around with this message at 14:40 on Aug 1, 2013

Mystic Stylez
Dec 19, 2009

From what I've been reading here, I wish that almost every build ever basically didn't suck, but this is every MMORPG I guess?

Killsion
Feb 16, 2011

Templars Rock.

VisAbsoluta posted:

From what I've been reading here, I wish that almost every build ever basically didn't suck, but this is every MMORPG I guess?

Most are fine for story progression purposes etc, but once you get to endgame you are pretty much forced into something cookie-cutter.

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010


Ignore my posts!
I'm aggressively wrong about everything!

Killsion posted:

Most are fine for story progression purposes etc, but once you get to endgame you are pretty much forced into something cookie-cutter.

It's very hard to distinguish how much of that is the game's fault and how much is the playerbase's, though.

Like, take my favorite overpowered whipping boy, Clean Up. Best cleanse in the game, and most likely the best purge too, and there's no debate on that front. It's demanded by pubbies for at least eight different boss fights that I know of, spread across at least three dungeons. And they will very rarely accept substitutes, believe me, I've tried.

But how many of those boss fights actually require Clean Up, and how many are just stupid pubbies refusing to step outside of what they know will work?
Already we can strike out two bosses and a whole dungeon from that lineup; the forth and sixth from Polaris aren't very demanding in their purges or cleanses, an Ele purge and Win-Win will handle it just fine, and you can usually twist a team's arm into trying.
Similarly, the first and third bosses in Hell Eternal are easily low-yield enough to opt for Win-Win instead of Clean Up, the team just has to stay on the ball and stick together (or in the case of the first boss, just use Contortionist like a reasonable person).
So that brings us to Hell Raised, with four out of six bosses 'requiring' Clean Up. But while those four do all inflict Lifeburn, I'd only say the first and last bosses really demand Clean Up (the fifth will run the healer a bit ragged keeping up, but it's perfectly doable if they've got something like Fired Up). With the first one only one will do, but Machine Tyrant is so infamously overpowered that he requires at least two. Most teams demand three, just to be safe.

So yeah. By my estimation, while Clean Up is overpowered and a ubiquitous ability for all the wrong reasons, the playerbase blows it way out of proportion by being utterly unwilling to use anything else that might not do the job quite as totally and unarguably. I think that's the same with a lot of 'cookie cutter' build requirements in the endgame. They aren't the only thing that will work, by any means, but they're the only ones that the playerbase will accept as working.

Some might fall a bit short speaking strictly on a practical level, like Blood healing, but it's nowhere near as much of a dealbreaker as people make it out to be.

guppy
Sep 21, 2004

sting like a byob

Plague Dynasty posted:

So I'm about halfway through Solomon Island I'd assume, finished the Amusement Park and just about to finish the school and have the mission to go to Blue Mountain for the main story. Right now my build is looking like this and I'd appreciate any feedback. It seems to be working out half decently but I've wasted a ton of points (at least until I recuperate the AP/SP)

Actives: Suppressing Fire, Fire at Will, Both Barrels, Lock and Load, Breaching Shot, Turn the Tables, Slow the Advance
Passives: Eagle Eye, Immortal Spirit, Gnosis, Extra Clip, Sharp Shooter, Hit & Run, Probability

Its a real mishmash of AR/Shotgun/Blade and Chaos trees. I have the Chaos and Blade basic trees maxed out with the AR/Shotgun trees maxed out with some into the subsections, I was hoping to get Twist the Knife soon but I feel like I'm dumping points randomly. My Blades and Chaos are both at 6 and my AR/Shotgun is at 8 with my Talismans at 3 each because I don't really have a great one to wear besides a QL10 one called The Snake that is really good health/pen/crit with a free slot that I got by a group randomly letting me do the Elite Transylvania dungeon after I accidently queued for it.

I feel like my actual stats are pretty bad at the moment.

609 AR
73 Hit
89 Pen
Some crit and crit severity

Should I just grind out and go hard into the AR builds posted before or switch this up. I love the ability to kind of spec whatever but picking and choosing at what feels right to me doesn't seem to be working.

All of your stuff right now is AOE, which makes a certain amount of sense in the very beginning but should be falling off hard by now since you're going to be more concerned about single, bigger enemies than lots of trash zombies. So I'd suggest changing over to single target stuff, though for soloing it is handy to keep something like Suppressing Fire around for when you do hit packs or you over pull. Safety Off is still the go-to single-target AR builder, Three Round Burst still the go-to single target AR consumer. Out For A Kill is usually considered the best option for Shotgun single-target.

Twist the Knife is great and features in most DPS builds, so you're on the right track there. In general you aren't going to have the "optimal" passives unlocked for the most part, what you've got seems decent enough to start. You can toss out Immortal Spirit if you've got something better, the passive healing stuff falls off fast once you're out of Kingsmouth. If you're ditching Lock and Load then Extra Clip obviously becomes extraneous as well,

Plague Dynasty
Aug 20, 2006

find revelations in life
find satisfaction in death

Much appreciated, definitely makes sense to switch to a single target focused build at this point. I'll give it a shot and go ahead and grab Twist the Knife asap.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014

Cleretic posted:

It's very hard to distinguish how much of that is the game's fault and how much is the playerbase's, though.

The problem with your example is that you're constantly saying "we don't need Clean Up if the tank takes this skill or the healer takes this skill". But to take that skill means them replacing another skill that is closer to optimal for their build.

A party of five has 35 active skills. How is it better for several people to have to change to a skill that they might have to grind just to put on their bar, than for one person to suck it up and use a powerful ability that a serious player has probably already got?

orcane
Jun 13, 2012

Fun Shoe

Cleretic posted:

It's very hard to distinguish how much of that is the game's fault and how much is the playerbase's, though. [...]
Even if you do the smart thing and avoid pubbies, the cookie cutter crap remains. It's definitely the game's fault and Funcom isn't even remotely fast enough about fixing this. Also there's a reason pubbies want cleanup, and it's the same why everyone prefers people in 10.4 gear for running 18/18. The way nightmares are designed means you want to minimize how many things can go wrong in how many ways in a PUG. Again, that's entirely the game's fault for having the dungeons designed as they are and for having outlier abilities like Cleanup being around for entirely too long.

orcane fucked around with this message at 16:50 on Aug 1, 2013

elhondo
Sep 20, 2012
Grimey Drawer
To be fair, most pugs are asking that you have CU at all, rather than always in your build.

Marx
Oct 24, 2003

This was the greatest day of my life. Finally I could stand on my soapbox and tell you American scum that you got exactly what you deserved.
P.S. Sorry Osama that Americans were not compassionate enough to take you in peacefully. You deserved better.
I like the Venetian masks. Only problem is that, dependent on the viewing angle, most of it can vanish making it look like my dude has feathers sprouting from his forehead.

Reverend Dr
Feb 9, 2005

Thanks Reverend

VisAbsoluta posted:

From what I've been reading here, I wish that almost every build ever basically didn't suck, but this is every MMORPG I guess?

Passives are the things that makes the biggest difference. Even with the same gear, rotation, and actives, it is a world of difference between a good set of passives and a bad set.

The biggest difference actives make is between single target and AoE. That's almost the only difference you are going to see among builders and consumers. There are a few exceptions and there certainly are some actives that are considered better, but for the most part in zone content, you won't really notice much of any difference between specific builders and specific consumers other than single vs aoe.

Things do change a bit at the endgame in nightmare dungeons. There is far more focus on optimization (also every skill that sets or exploits 'hinder' or 'impair' are almost completely useless) and effective build choices become more limited.

Len
Jan 21, 2008

Pouches, bandages, shoulderpad, cyber-eye...

Bitchin'!


I don't know if he's said anything on the live forums because I don't bother reading them since I can't post there. But this is what Joel said to me about the scenario pricing.

Joel posted:

I really don't know yet. That's more a sales and marketing discussion that hasn't been had yet.

However, I know the "bundle" won't cost more than the other Issues have.

Marx
Oct 24, 2003

This was the greatest day of my life. Finally I could stand on my soapbox and tell you American scum that you got exactly what you deserved.
P.S. Sorry Osama that Americans were not compassionate enough to take you in peacefully. You deserved better.
So yeah, about those golems: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJnSNP2gibk

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014


So the objective of the game was to get nine mini-pets to do a Mexican wave. Nice, the world is saved already.

Len
Jan 21, 2008

Pouches, bandages, shoulderpad, cyber-eye...

Bitchin'!


Cleretic posted:

But how many of those boss fights actually require Clean Up, and how many are just stupid pubbies refusing to step outside of what they know will work?
Already we can strike out two bosses and a whole dungeon from that lineup; the forth and sixth from Polaris aren't very demanding in their purges or cleanses, an Ele purge and Win-Win will handle it just fine, and you can usually twist a team's arm into trying.
Similarly, the first and third bosses in Hell Eternal are easily low-yield enough to opt for Win-Win instead of Clean Up, the team just has to stay on the ball and stick together (or in the case of the first boss, just use Contortionist like a reasonable person).
So that brings us to Hell Raised, with four out of six bosses 'requiring' Clean Up. But while those four do all inflict Lifeburn, I'd only say the first and last bosses really demand Clean Up (the fifth will run the healer a bit ragged keeping up, but it's perfectly doable if they've got something like Fired Up). With the first one only one will do, but Machine Tyrant is so infamously overpowered that he requires at least two. Most teams demand three, just to be safe.

Polaris: I've never had anyone demand CU. For fight four even the pub groups I've run with haven't cared about what purge gets used. As long as the evade buff goes away noone gives any shits. Fight six I don't think anyone bothers with CU anymore because rocket jump/epipen/rolling solve the problem.

HE: Yes. Just slot Contortionist and see how far that gets you. Spoiler alert: the answer will be the anima well. It won't be off cooldown by the time the second rot iron comes up. You can epipen and contortionist but you can't rely on everyone to have epipens. I guess win-win would work on the fourth boss but then you're expecting the group to be pretty bunched and from my experience that never happens.

Hell Raised: gently caress you just take cleanup like a normal goddamn person. Antimony Ministrix: The purple poo poo causes lifeburn. Corroder: I don't think he causes lifeburn so you're safe here. Hardwired Fleshtank: There's a lot of fire and some of that fire causes lifeburn. Traumadriver: Lifeburn from molten steel. Recursia: Lifeburn between phases. Machine Tyrant: Lifeburn always. Expecting win-win to be enough to save you is putting far too much faith on everyone being close enough to the caster to not die.

I know and understand you like having snowflake builds but you can use those in Elites. Assuming you still pub your way through them don't waste peoples time by loving around trying to be different. Use what works and save the snowflake builds for a group you know.

Edit: I would be willing to run HR NM with you and zero clean ups. You have to be in mumble though and the healer.

Len fucked around with this message at 00:47 on Aug 2, 2013

Killsion
Feb 16, 2011

Templars Rock.
As expected, certain vocal pubbies are raging hilariously about the grave injustice that is the monthly item is not super serious enough for them.

Len
Jan 21, 2008

Pouches, bandages, shoulderpad, cyber-eye...

Bitchin'!


Killsion posted:

As expected, certain vocal pubbies are raging hilariously about the grave injustice that is the monthly item is not super serious enough for them.

If they do another vote to appease the pubbies I will buy a copy of the game just to get a vote. I want this dinosaur mask.

Or a hairy bare chest.

Reverend Dr
Feb 9, 2005

Thanks Reverend

Killsion posted:

As expected, certain vocal pubbies are raging hilariously about the grave injustice that is the monthly item is not super serious enough for them.

I kind of like the new monthly item. Though I can't wear it with my horse head so ultimately I don't care. (would sub this moment, if I could put that mask on my horse head)


Also apparently if enough people get together to summon all of the golem pets, they do a dance and summon the gatekeeper.

guppy
Sep 21, 2004

sting like a byob

Killsion posted:

As expected, certain vocal pubbies are raging hilariously about the grave injustice that is the monthly item is not super serious enough for them.

I hope next month is another horse mask. Not even a different color or anything, just the same one.

Zephonith
Jun 25, 2008

Maybe if I actually played Mafia, I'd get a better gift from my Mafia Secret Santa. :(

Len posted:

If they do another vote to appease the pubbies I will buy a copy of the game just to get a vote. I want this dinosaur mask.
I kinda want this one:

Len
Jan 21, 2008

Pouches, bandages, shoulderpad, cyber-eye...

Bitchin'!


Or better yet. Give me a new uniform.



Edit: Zepho took this of my character. The antlers wouldn't go away no matter how many hats I changed.

Len fucked around with this message at 02:36 on Aug 2, 2013

Cheston
Jul 17, 2012

(he's got a good thing going)
Did they remove /reset, or is it just not letting me for some reason?


**Huh, well, there it goes. Never mind.

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010


Ignore my posts!
I'm aggressively wrong about everything!

Len posted:

Polaris: I've never had anyone demand CU. For fight four even the pub groups I've run with haven't cared about what purge gets used. As long as the evade buff goes away noone gives any shits. Fight six I don't think anyone bothers with CU anymore because rocket jump/epipen/rolling solve the problem.

HE: Yes. Just slot Contortionist and see how far that gets you. Spoiler alert: the answer will be the anima well. It won't be off cooldown by the time the second rot iron comes up. You can epipen and contortionist but you can't rely on everyone to have epipens. I guess win-win would work on the fourth boss but then you're expecting the group to be pretty bunched and from my experience that never happens.

Hell Raised: gently caress you just take cleanup like a normal goddamn person. Antimony Ministrix: The purple poo poo causes lifeburn. Corroder: I don't think he causes lifeburn so you're safe here. Hardwired Fleshtank: There's a lot of fire and some of that fire causes lifeburn. Traumadriver: Lifeburn from molten steel. Recursia: Lifeburn between phases. Machine Tyrant: Lifeburn always. Expecting win-win to be enough to save you is putting far too much faith on everyone being close enough to the caster to not die.

I know and understand you like having snowflake builds but you can use those in Elites. Assuming you still pub your way through them don't waste peoples time by loving around trying to be different. Use what works and save the snowflake builds for a group you know.

Edit: I would be willing to run HR NM with you and zero clean ups. You have to be in mumble though and the healer.

With Polaris it's less 'okay time to fight the Haugbui Mother, who has CU', and more that since it's the most ubiquitous cleanse and purge in the whole game, it'll be the one that gets wheeled out unless you specifically make a point to divert it.

I have used Contortionist for the first boss of Hell Eternal, and it's worked rather well. It can be a bit dicey, because the second Rot Iron will come up dangerously close to the coolown point, but I have had it work. The Prime Maker... yeah, I'll grant that the range on Win-Win wouldn't be enough. Even in the best-case scenario you're gonna miss the tank.

Hell Raised I'll give you, but to me that's more at the point of 'you already brought at least two CUs, might as well use it' than 'Clean Up is literally the most important thing here'. Machine Tyrant the exception, but he's the outlier.

I will admit a big part of my hatred of CU and 'cookie-cutter builds' is because I just loving hate Shotgun. None of the abilities interest me, and despite being objectively speaking quite strong, I just can't use it in a way that feels like I'm doing anything. Shotgun is the single least appealing weapon in the entire game to me, yet as someone who primarily plays DPS I'm 'forced' to use it a lot. So you'll forgive me if I go 'gently caress that' and try to avoid doing so as much as possible.

OneEightHundred
Feb 28, 2008

Soon, we will be unstoppable!

Cheston posted:

Did they remove /reset, or is it just not letting me for some reason?
You can't use it in combat. Which is of course the best news in the world when Facility 6 bugs out.

Killsion posted:

Most are fine for story progression purposes etc, but once you get to endgame you are pretty much forced into something cookie-cutter.
Even "fine" is only true to the extent that pretty much anything works, but some specs are drastically easier and let you be much sloppier about aggroing random poo poo and running bad gear, and then if you want to solo nightmare mobs the viable set gets pared down even further.

The problem is that the vast majority of mechanics suck for pretty glaring reasons. Afflictions and extra-hit skills suck (beyond using affliction as a trigger for bonus effects) because they don't pen/crit. Crit is underwhelming because penetration is absurdly better. Evade sucks because it takes way too much evade rating to get any, and it's spiky as hell on everything that isn't Machine Tyrant. "Paladin" soloing builds suck because it takes too much heal rating to beat just wearing one max health. Melee DPS sucks because it doesn't bring buffs, doesn't do much more than ranged, and gets poo poo on by the absolute deluge of bosses that either dump AoEs at their feet or force you to hide. Everything that triggers on impairs/hinders sucks because they're not good enough for something that's only usable once every 30 seconds. Most elite damage abilities suck because they either run into something else mentioned here, put CC immunity stacks on bosses, or have some other dumb limitation (i.e. rail turret doesn't pen/crit even though shotgun turret does).

Pilchenstein
May 17, 2012

So your plan is for half of us to die?

Hot Rope Guy

OneEightHundred posted:

You can't use it in combat.
Why on earth not? What is any mob going to do to you that's worse than dying and taking durability damage?

Variable Haircut
Jan 25, 2012

Pilchenstein posted:

Why on earth not? What is any mob going to do to you that's worse than dying and taking durability damage?

Your asking too much of the game engine, it gets confused when it is asked to do one or more things at once.

Len
Jan 21, 2008

Pouches, bandages, shoulderpad, cyber-eye...

Bitchin'!


Cleretic posted:

With Polaris it's less 'okay time to fight the Haugbui Mother, who has CU', and more that since it's the most ubiquitous cleanse and purge in the whole game, it'll be the one that gets wheeled out unless you specifically make a point to divert it.

I have used Contortionist for the first boss of Hell Eternal, and it's worked rather well. It can be a bit dicey, because the second Rot Iron will come up dangerously close to the coolown point, but I have had it work. The Prime Maker... yeah, I'll grant that the range on Win-Win wouldn't be enough. Even in the best-case scenario you're gonna miss the tank.

Hell Raised I'll give you, but to me that's more at the point of 'you already brought at least two CUs, might as well use it' than 'Clean Up is literally the most important thing here'. Machine Tyrant the exception, but he's the outlier.

I will admit a big part of my hatred of CU and 'cookie-cutter builds' is because I just loving hate Shotgun. None of the abilities interest me, and despite being objectively speaking quite strong, I just can't use it in a way that feels like I'm doing anything. Shotgun is the single least appealing weapon in the entire game to me, yet as someone who primarily plays DPS I'm 'forced' to use it a lot. So you'll forgive me if I go 'gently caress that' and try to avoid doing so as much as possible.

Of course they're going to ask about cleanup first for Polaris. The reason is it's the single best cleanse or purge in the whole game. Sure it's not the only but everything else is trash compared to it.

I wonder if Rot Iron is on an HP threshold. When we run it there's not a chance in hell that contortionist will work, and I know you tend to run in lower DPS groups. But what you're saying to do is "Just run contortionist and hope you don't end up dead" and gently caress that.

Cleanup literally is the most important part of Hell Raised thinking differently is just once again showing how wrong you are about game mechanics.

Pilchenstein
May 17, 2012

So your plan is for half of us to die?

Hot Rope Guy

HughGRect posted:

Your asking too much of the game engine, it gets confused when it is asked to do one or more things at once.

I'm pretty sure it gets confused when it's not asked to do any things at all too.

orcane
Jun 13, 2012

Fun Shoe
Cleanup isn't as overpowered for purging as it is for cleansing so you can do Polaris 4/5 with EM manifestation or lightning manifestation and its purge-on-hit passive. Depending on what non-elite abilities you replace it may even be more beneficial that way. For Ur-draug with pubbies you still want it though because good luck counting on everyone using epipens etc. and then you may as well run it for the previous two bosses anyway.

Hell raised definitely seems to be made with cleanup in mind (or the other way around, probably) so trying to work around all the other cleanses' shortcomings is a massive headache and seems very unproductive while cleanup does the same job more easily, more reliably. And I'll agree with Plat, everytime I ran HE (never with pubbies) Rot Iron went off way before contortionist or sleight of hand went off cooldown. You can do it with epipens but I wouldn't trust pubbies with those over a fire and forget cleanse.

Reverend Dr
Feb 9, 2005

Thanks Reverend

There are many skills that *can* cleanse and purge, but not many that are effective in doing so. Many of them are %based, or single target, or have an ICD, or require finagling of multiple actives/passives. When cleanses and purges are needed, they are needed on demand (and in the case of cleanses almost always needed in numbers larger than 1 and across the whole party). CU is one of the few ways to do it on demand and is most certainly the easiest way to do it effectively.

Other than Win-Win for cleanses and Ele mani for purges, there just aren't any substitutes for CU that don't involve reaching around your elbow to get to your rear end.

If you really hate CU, sorry, that's the way the game is. There are a lot of us that think its silly that CU is so much better than other options (as in other options are poo poo and just not worth using, not CU is overpowered), but are certainly not going to go through the amount of effort required to accommodate for a non CU option. Blame game design that gives mostly non-on-demand cleanses purges yet creates situations with cleanses purges needed in an on-demand basis (also on-demand will always outclass random or spread out, always, so blame part of that on FC not making a simple realization).

orcane
Jun 13, 2012

Fun Shoe
It's still technically overpowered as gently caress. The other cleanses (purges aren't nearly as bad) are clearly designed around a completely different paradigm which doesn't match the design of their nightmares but that's why no one really wants to see cleanup nerfed - competent designers would nerf cleanup hard and review the mechanics which make their outlier cleanse "mandatory", but we all know Funcom would just gently caress cleanup some more and leave the mechanics unchanged.

We (well all of you who still bother with Funcom) should all use the "cleanse/purge if you apply hinder/impair" skills :haw:

OneEightHundred
Feb 28, 2008

Soon, we will be unstoppable!
The only alternative to Cleanup that's even remotely usable on Machine Tyrant is to have absolutely everyone take Collaboration.

Purges are a complete non-issue because ele can purge one target every 3 resources or purge an AoE every 10 seconds so who cares.

orcane
Jun 13, 2012

Fun Shoe
15 seconds, and you have to place a manifestation. Cleanup is still the easy mode for that, but the alternatives are okay because no content has insane purge demands on a level with cleanses.

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Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010


Ignore my posts!
I'm aggressively wrong about everything!
Machine Tyrant and Prime Maker are the only bosses where I'll say that yes, Clean Up is actually needed, you'll receive no argument from me there. I'm not happy about the fact, because I hate CU and I hate Shotgun, but that's how it is. My issue is that CU's only actually needed for those two bosses (and Prime Maker's a borderline case, a clever person could probably work around it), but every time a cleanse or purge is needed, on any level, at any time, CU gets demanded.

Part of what I hate about its dominance is that I'm primarily Pistols/Ele. If it weren't for Clean Up being so ridiculous, I would be the undisputed master of cleansing and purging. But since CU is so insanely good, it takes that away from me. I'm not entirely sure what Shotgun is 'meant' to have in equivalence, but cleansing and purging are definitely not meant to be its field.

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