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after lots of thinking and experience, I've decided poultry is just plain better with a hotter smoke/grill. low temperatures (180-230) end up with flabby skin and a ho-hum product. I think 280-350 is much much better - just comes out much juicer and with crispy bits. dunno about turkey though, haven't done it enough times to form any opinions. smoke restraint is definitely universally needed though. first 15-30 minutes only, at most.
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Jul 24, 2013 06:43
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I like to use low smoke and temps while cooking, then throw the bird under the broiler before serving for crispness. I think pieces also work better than a whole bird.
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Jul 24, 2013 08:34
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As far as turkey, I usually stick to the wings + thighs. Legs just have too much connective tissue/gristle IMO. Smoke until almost cooked, then finish on the grill.
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Jul 24, 2013 15:25
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Thinking about doing a brisket on my WSM this coming Sunday, anyone have any favorite recipes/tips?
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Jul 25, 2013 14:53
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What did I do wrong? So I smoked some Baby Back Ribs yesterday, and they didn't come out the way I wanted. This was my first real attempt at a smoke, here's the story: I started with two racks. I attempted to pull the membrane from the back, but (due to my novice status) couldn't find it and assumed it had already been pulled. In retrospect, I think I am just an idiot and missed it. This may be the key to all my problems, but I don't know. So I used a homemade rub that I created from an online recipe, aping off of a classic KC style rub. I rubbed them Tuesday night and put them back in the fridge overnight (wrapped in plastic wrap and a layer of tinfoil).  Wednesday morning I pulled them about 2 hours before the smoke. I got my fire going using a mixture of lump charcoal, 100% hardwood briquettes, and hickory and cherry (both soaked and unsoaked). I spent the first hour practicing keeping the fire consistent, and was able to maintain a 200-250deg grilltop heat for an hour. (I used a digital wireless and two grilltop thermometers to check). The grilltops were always 10-15 degrees higher than the digital, I noticed, but I was only able to check them briefly twice, as I didn't want to open the grill.  That's my cheapo hybrid. It was a gift, and I like it a lot. I made some minor modifications I guess I should talk about real quick. Out of the box, it had a lot of leaks. I used some JB weld on those, and put a silicone gasket (good up to 750) on the smoke side of the grill. For the Firebox and Firebox Door, I used a Green Egg gasket that's supposed to be good up to 1000 degrees. Both seals held pretty well, and most of the smoke was going out of the chimney or the firebox intake vent (windy day). (Also, ignore the bag of matchlight on the bottom of my grill, it came as a part of the gift, but I've never used it and I don't use lighter fluid either).  Ok, back to the grill story: I threw the ribs on, bone down. I had fire control problems throughout the first 2 hours. I fluctuated between 150 and 250. My inexperience, coupled with some wind, made it an enormous hassle. This is my second area of concern. I think my fluctuating heat may have been a contributor to my problems. I promised myself I wouldn't "peek" except for on the hour marks, and only opened the side of the firebox to stoke and add wood/charcoal. Despite the fluctuations according to my digital, the grilltop thermometers were both at ~225 when I checked them (I had one on either side of the grill surface, as my smoker isn't reverse flow, and I feared the side nearer to the firebox would get hotter than the other, though this didn't seem to be the case, I still rotated the ribs when I went to foil). I spritzed with a mixture of apple cider vinegar and cooking oil in the beginning, at the 1 hour mark and the 2 hour mark. So I extended my planned 2 hour initial smoke to 2.75 hours, because of the fluctuating temperatures. The last hour or so was straight at 225-240 according to the digital thermometer, so I felt good about that. I pulled them and foiled them in a mixture of brown sugar, butter and some more rub. They went back on, meat down, for another 2 hours. This two hours, the heat was consistent between 200 and 250. It still fluxed a little, but I was able to control it pretty well, I felt. Much better than the first two hours. I went pure charcoal for this round, as I knew I didn't need smoke, but just indirect heat. When I pulled them out of the foil they were looking choice. I noticed the meat hadn't creeped up the bone yet, as I'd read it should, but I pressed on. I removed the foil and rotated them again, and went bone down on the grill. I sauced them twice, once in the beginning and once at the 30 minute mark. I used a lot of soaked wood and a few chips to get a really good smoke going. The temperature was fairly consistent and I felt really good about that last hour. (I've read a lot of people don't sauce, and that's cool, but I did). After an hour in the smoke and sauce, and checks that put the internal temps at 170+ on both, I pulled them, for a grand total of 5:45 on the smoker. I let them rest for about 15 minutes, and then started cutting. I was so disappointed. I honestly don't know if I undercooked them or overcooked them. They were tight on the bone and tough. Everyone said they were great, so maybe I'm just overly criticizing myself, but I wanted better. The bark seemed good, but the smoke ring looked kind of narrow to me. Again, this was my first attempt at ribs, so I'm not even 100% sure I know what I'm looking for. The taste was great, but the texture was terrible, by my estimation.    I wanted the meat to be falling off the bone, and I fell very short of that. What did I do wrong? Any tips on fire-control? Be gentle, this is my first time... Tuxedo Jack fucked around with this message at 15:41 on Jul 25, 2013 |
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Jul 25, 2013 15:29
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Tuxedo Jack posted:What did I do wrong? Those look good to me. Falling off the bone is overdone.
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Jul 25, 2013 16:14
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If they were tight and tough then they probably weren't cooked long enough and didn't get to the right internal temperature to break down the connective tissue. 170 is pretty low. I was thinking more along the lines of 190. But at the same time since rib meat is so thin is hard to get a good gauge on when to pull. It becomes more of a feeling. Falling off the bone is overcooked but that doesn't mean you want ribs that are tough and tight. They should still pull off the bone when you want them to. Baby backs are a tough rib to cook and I personally wouldn't recommend them for a first smoke. They don't have as much fat as spareribs, so they are really unforgiving. One thing though and completely personal preference but that's a lot of rub for small pieces of meat. Was it not overpowering your porky flavor? ObesePriest fucked around with this message at 16:32 on Jul 25, 2013 |
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Jul 25, 2013 16:28
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ObesePriest posted:If they were tight and tough then they probably weren't cooked long enough and didn't get to the right internal temperature to break down the connective tissue. 170 is pretty low. I was thinking more along the lines of 190. Ok, good notes. I had read 168 internal temp for pork, somewhere. So I probably should've given them another hour on the smoke, maybe? When I say falling off the bone, I guess I don't mean literally. I just wanted them a little looser. The meat was so tight, you could barely pull it off the bone at all, at the near parts. I went heavy with the rub, and I wondered if I had gone too far, but the pork flavor was definitely still there. Honestly, the rub and bark are the two things I was happiest with on these ribs. The flavor and taste was all there, it was just the texture and tightness that I was really unhappy with. Next time, I plan to do Spare Ribs. I had wanted to start with them originally, but my local butcher didn't have them.
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Jul 25, 2013 16:32
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It shouldn't take any 5.75 hours on the cooker to smoke 2 racks of baby backs though, it should be more like 4 hours. It sounds like the temperature fluctuations really screwed up the process. Do you have any better place to put the cooker where it would be behind some sort of windshield? It looks like it's completely out in the open in your pics. I don't even bother with temps on ribs anymore, I just use the bend test. http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/a/the-bend-test-for-ribs When they bend at that angle and the meat starts to slightly crack, they're likely done.
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Jul 25, 2013 16:39
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coronaball posted:It shouldn't take any 5.75 hours on the cooker to smoke 2 racks of baby backs though, it should be more like 4 hours. It sounds like the temperature fluctuations really screwed up the process. Do you have any better place to put the cooker where it would be behind some sort of windshield? It looks like it's completely out in the open in your pics. My house is pretty square, aside from the inset from my garage there on the front, which is the best (and only) way to block the wind, and only if it's coming from the South. Sadly, out here in Kansas, wind is pretty tough to avoid. My next option would be to smoke inside my garage, with my chimney poking out the door, but that sounds incredibly dangerous... I had heard of this bend test, but didn't know what it constituted, I will definitely use this for the next time.
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Jul 25, 2013 16:42
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For ribs I've always heard that you're supposed to use the pull test. Basically, slightly tug on two bones, the meat shouldn't fall off but should have some give.
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Jul 25, 2013 21:28
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HolyDukeNukem posted:For ribs I've always heard that you're supposed to use the pull test. Basically, slightly tug on two bones, the meat shouldn't fall off but should have some give. Pretty much this. After I do the pull test I do a quick temp check just because I can, to make sure they are 190-ish, but I rely mostly on the pull test. And like someone else said, 5.5 hours is WAY too long to be cooking baby back ribs. Between 250 and 275 on my WSM I can do 3 racks in about 3-3.5 hours. I will also agree with the person that said you over-rubbed them. And personally I think you probably over-smoked them too. It doesn't take much to get a good smoky flavor into baby backs, and after the first hour or two of cooking, you are just overdoing it.
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Jul 25, 2013 21:48
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DJCobol posted:5.5 hours is WAY too long to be cooking baby back ribs. Between 250 and 275 on my WSM I can do 3 racks in about 3-3.5 hours. Came to thread tonight looking for this exact information. Good to know I'm not the only person who way overcooked some ribs.
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Jul 26, 2013 01:59
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PhotoKirk posted:Those look good to me. Falling off the bone is overdone. Personal taste, I dislike ribs that aren't coming off the bone easily. My fiance thinks differently I found out when we where out eating and she had ribs and I had steak. She said to try these ribs they are wonderful, but I found them so woefully underdone I couldn't finish the one. I use the pull/bend test to figure out when they're done as well, usually its about 4 hours as well. His Divine Shadow fucked around with this message at 15:55 on Jul 27, 2013 |
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Jul 27, 2013 15:53
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So the overwhelming opinion is that I should've been cooking the Baby Backs at a higher temp, around 275, and for only 4 hours? How would that break down, 90 minutes in the smoke, 90 minutes in foil and another hour in the smoke at the end? And that last hour is contingent on the "bend test" or "pull test" - am I correct?
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Jul 27, 2013 15:57
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Tuxedo Jack posted:So the overwhelming opinion is that I should've been cooking the Baby Backs at a higher temp, around 275, and for only 4 hours? How would that break down, 90 minutes in the smoke, 90 minutes in foil and another hour in the smoke at the end? And that last hour is contingent on the "bend test" or "pull test" - am I correct? Nooooo not necessarily, you're kind kf extracting the wrong reason from the given comments. People are saying that you smoked them too long doesn't necessarily mean that you need to cook them at a higher temp. It means more like your temperature control needs to be much more consistent which will cut down on your cooking time. You can leave it in your smoker as long as you want but don't keep adding wood passed like the first 2 hours if that. There's no sure fire timing for smoking meat. You can't go based off of hard times saying that 4 pounds of ribs will always take 4 hours. Given bad temp control or numerous other factors it can take longer. Some people like to cook them faster at 250 to 275. I feel thay 250 is the optimal temperature for ribs but 225 works just as well. 275 is a bit on the high end for me but still acceptable. The main thing is coming at 225-250 constant should have made you finish before the 5.5 hour mark. With all smokes, you pull when either the internal temp is high enough or you perform some sort of "doneness" test. I've smoked meat longer than it should have and pulled out off because it was time to eat but my lovely temp control at the time left me with this tough rear end piece of brisket. Some people foil their ribs some dont. I'm on the side of not doing it because I'm lazy bastard. It will help speed up your cooking time but with meats as small as ribs I find the cooking time cut down is minimal. There's other reasons to foil but again I'm lazy. Edit: also the internal temp for pork at 168 is probably the "safe" temp to eat pork at but I believe that has been lower 20 degrees or so. Thats for lean pieces of pork but big cheap tough meats like pork shoulder and brisket need high internal temps. Ribs as well. ObesePriest fucked around with this message at 16:36 on Jul 27, 2013 |
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Jul 27, 2013 16:30
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Tuxedo Jack posted:So the overwhelming opinion is that I should've been cooking the Baby Backs at a higher temp, around 275, and for only 4 hours? How would that break down, 90 minutes in the smoke, 90 minutes in foil and another hour in the smoke at the end? And that last hour is contingent on the "bend test" or "pull test" - am I correct? My suggestion would be to not overcomplicate things until you've got a better grasp on the basics. It isn't an exact science, and every hunk of meat is different. There are a lot of different ways to end up with awesome ribs, and very few ways to screw them up to where they are actually inedible. I would skip the foil until you get temperature control and knowing when to pull them off the smoker down. Try to keep it around 250, put the ribs on, have a few beers, and then check on them in three or four hours. You can bend them, or pull them, or just take a toothpick or thermometer probe and poke them to see if they seem tender enough for you. If they don't seem tender enough for you, check on them again in an hour. Once you feel confident with that (which probably will only take a couple of more smokes), then start fiddling with things.
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Jul 27, 2013 20:23
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Seconding cornface's sentiment. When you start using a crutch like foil you really want to be doing it because you know what it is that you are trying to change. Get to know your smoker, play around with meats and temps (I just recently came to the realization that I much prefer doing my brisket closer to 275), learn how to tell when meat is done, and then start looking in to other techniques. Also, keep track of what you are doing each time. The amount of fuel you use, the amount of time you spend, and any other variables you can think to track. There are a few sites online for doing this, but none of them really tickle my fancy or give me enough details to track. I am working on my own site for this now, but it is going to take some time. In the meantime, I use a spiral notebook and it working just fine.
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Jul 27, 2013 23:59
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With temperature fluctuations that severe I would spend an afternoon just practicing controlling temp for chunks of time and not even worry about cooking a piece of meat. Learn your grill, fuel, airbox, fire, etc. Once you get temp control down it is knowing how to use your most important tool. Foil, smoke, mops and sauces are all secondary IMO.
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Jul 28, 2013 01:03
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sellouts posted:With temperature fluctuations that severe I would spend an afternoon just practicing controlling temp for chunks of time and not even worry about cooking a piece of meat. Learn your grill, fuel, airbox, fire, etc. Pork butt is pretty forgiving, so he could also try that.
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Jul 28, 2013 03:24
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Speaking of pork butt. Do smaller ones take heat differently or something? When I do a larger butt the bone pulls out completely clean, and meat shreds apart with just my hands. I've noticed that when I do sub 10lb shoulders, I need forks to pull, they never seem to get as tender, and the bone doesn't come out clean. Using literally the same method, same temps, same everything. Brine, rest, smoke to 150, foil till 190, foil off till 195-210 depending on how impatient the crowd is.
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Jul 28, 2013 04:56
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Start your shoulder earlier and skip the foil while cooking. If you are timing it for guests, I prefer to wrap with foil and then an old towel after they hit 200° and then throw them into a cooler for 2-3 hours before shredding them.
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Jul 29, 2013 20:18
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His Divine Shadow posted:Personal taste, I dislike ribs that aren't coming off the bone easily. My fiance thinks differently I found out when we where out eating and she had ribs and I had steak. She said to try these ribs they are wonderful, but I found them so woefully underdone I couldn't finish the one. Yeah, I feel the same way. I did height heat dry rub ribs the week before last after work with some friends and we got them just shy of fall off the bone and I thought they were too tough and were more like beef ribs. I put the leftovers, foiled, in the oven for like 90m and they were much better. In general I wasn't pleased with the dry rub result but ribs in 90m is really appealing so I am going to keep messing with them. Before:  After 90m high heat:  Close up: 
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Jul 30, 2013 13:24
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I used to cheat by starting my ribs wrapped in foil in a 200 degree F oven for a couple hours, then smoking for two or three hours. It really doesn't take much to get smoke flavor, and even a smoke ring on them this way, and they would come out tender every time. They even had a decent bark. Has anyone else done this kind of "reverse crutch"? (I think I'm using the term "crutch" correctly). Also, I love chasing Jose Cuervo Especial with Modelo.
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Jul 30, 2013 14:55
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GEEKABALL posted:I used to cheat by starting my ribs wrapped in foil in a 200 degree F oven for a couple hours, then smoking for two or three hours. It really doesn't take much to get smoke flavor, and even a smoke ring on them this way, and they would come out tender every time. They even had a decent bark. Because I don't have a true smoker yet, this is the way I do mine. Foiled in the oven at 225. Inside the foil the temp gets to 210* I leave them in for 4 hours while I do other poo poo, then "smoke" them for 45 mins @ 300 on the grill, indirect heat. I get smoke flavor and use mesquite chips. I don't get much if any smoke ring though. I can't believe how much oil and water come out of 4 racks. About 1 liter!
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Jul 30, 2013 17:58
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Guys I hear a lot of 15+ hour smoke times for pork butt so I want to let you know what I did and how well it worked. I had a 8.5lb bone-in butt. I cooked it on my weber 22" grill with hardwood briquets and mesquite chunks used sparingly around the outside perimeter, drip pan in the middle. I monitored with a probe thermometer and kept it between 200 and 235 the entire time, averaging 225. I cooked it this way for 7 hours. Then I loaded up the fuel and opened up the vents and let things get up into the 350-400 range and finished it off that way for the last hour and a half to get it up to 190. I know this sounds crazy and goes against everything you dudes believe, but it was the best pulled pork I have ever had, and I usually think the things I cook taste worse than they actually do, not better. Anyway, I don't know the chemistry but I think after 6 hours of slow cooking you can crank it up and still get excellent results. Maybe even better bark.
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Jul 31, 2013 20:12
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I did my first beef brisket yesterday. I use an Oklahoma Joes smoker (charcoal only) with mesquite wood. Using an external probe I am able to monitor the temperature pretty accurately--it was 220-230 for the duration except when I opened the smoker to mist the meat with apple juice or added a bit of charcoal/wood to the fire box. I only opened the smoker 3 times and it quickly got back up to temperature. I include an oven thermometer (as you can see in the pictures) as well as the built in thermometer on the lid, mainly because I'm paranoid about the temp being incorrect. Most of the information I have found recommends about 1 hour 15 minutes per pound at 220-230 and an internal temperature of 170. My 4.33 pound brisket took closer to 7 hours when all told, while I figured it should be around 5.5 hours. Unless opening the smoker seriously extended the temperature, I'm not sure why the cooking time was so long. I triple wrapped the brisket with foil for the last 1.5 hours to keep the meat moist. The internal temp at that point was around 140. Is there something I'm missing?  Finished product: 
Meclin fucked around with this message at 15:58 on Aug 1, 2013 |
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Aug 1, 2013 15:52
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Meclin posted:I did my first beef brisket yesterday. I use an Oklahoma Joes smoker (charcoal only) with mesquite wood. Using an external probe I am able to monitor the temperature pretty accurately--it was 220-230 for the duration except when I opened the smoker to mist the meat with apple juice or added a bit of charcoal/wood to the fire box. I only opened the smoker 3 times and it quickly got back up to temperature. I include an oven thermometer (as you can see in the pictures) as well as the built in thermometer on the lid, mainly because I'm paranoid about the temp being incorrect. Internal temperature at 170? Was your brisket not mega tough? Foiling also generally starts at 150ish when the temperature starts to stall. Smoking isn't an exact science. There can be a lot of variables affecting your cooking time. 7 hours does not sound too ridiculous. You can bump up the temperature to 250 if you'd like. I dont see any pictures in your post though. Edit: oh pics are up. Your brisket does not look done but if you like it then who am I to say. What external probe are you using? Is it calibrated? ObesePriest fucked around with this message at 16:04 on Aug 1, 2013 |
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Aug 1, 2013 16:00
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What internal temperature do you shoot for? It wasn't tough, but I imagine it could have been more tender.
Meclin fucked around with this message at 16:12 on Aug 1, 2013 |
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Aug 1, 2013 16:03
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Meclin posted:What internal temperature do you shoot for? It wasn't tough, but I imagine it could have been more tender. As for the pictures, I'm trying to figure out how to do thumbnails from imgur. I used the timg tags and a link when I edited--are they showing up now? If not, can you let me know how to post a pic without them being huge, please? Judging by your pics, I would say that your temperature didn't get hot enough. Your thermometers might be off or something. Theres no bark on your brisket which makes me wonder about the temperature. Similar to pork shoulders. I aim for at least 190 ObesePriest fucked around with this message at 16:09 on Aug 1, 2013 |
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Aug 1, 2013 16:06
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Kicking the internal temperature up would make sense. Like I said, it certainly is edible, but not near as tender as I would like. I will try another one with a bit higher smoker temperature as well as a new thermometer.
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Aug 1, 2013 16:12
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Meclin posted:What internal temperature do you shoot for? It wasn't tough, but I imagine it could have been more tender. Don't go for a specific internal temp, use it as a guideline, but it can get tender anywhere from 190-210 depending on the cow. The trick I have started using that has given tender brisket the last few times I made it is that once it hits 190 I will periodically stick a bamboo skewer (or some other pointy thing) in it until it feels like I am sticking it into butter. I have also seen people cook brisket at a temp of anywhere from 225 to 325. My smoker sucks and is hard to keep a steady temp, but I do well shooting for 250 and it tends to bounce from 225 to 275. ObesePriest posted:Judging by your pics, I would say that your temperature didn't get hot enough. Your thermometers might be off or something. Theres no bark on your brisket which makes me wonder about the temperature. I have noticed the good bark really doesn't seem to form until it hits 180 or so, the lack of back could just be another indicator that it needed more time.
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Aug 1, 2013 16:27
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Well, in light of this advice I think my three thermometers are working just fine. I didn't get the internal temperature near hot enough. That makes sense. I used a dry rub on the brisket itself--is there something else I should do to encourage bark? I also misted it several times with apple juice--mainly because that is what I do to my ribs but I don't know if it is a good idea for beef brisket.
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Aug 1, 2013 16:40
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Meclin posted:Well, in light of this advice I think my three thermometers are working just fine. I didn't get the internal temperature near hot enough. That makes sense. I used a dry rub on the brisket itself--is there something else I should do to encourage bark? I also misted it several times with apple juice--mainly because that is what I do to my ribs but I don't know if it is a good idea for beef brisket. I don't mist brisket, I'm not sure, but it seems that would also slow the bark from forming. I usually just dry rub and smoke.
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Aug 1, 2013 17:01
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I've found misting things is a waste of time, as is putting stuff like apple juice in your water pan. Totally useless.
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Aug 2, 2013 02:17
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I find misting for babybacks is a good idea, but i dont bother doing misting for mopping for pork shoulders
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Aug 2, 2013 17:24
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I only mist ribs since they can get a little dried out, especially if the temp gets too high. Speaking of which I'm about to throw 2 racks of STL on right now!
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Aug 2, 2013 19:55
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Welp, smoking my first packer brisket right now. 14 lb's of glorious meat.
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Aug 3, 2013 03:15
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McSpankWich posted:Speaking of pork butt. Do smaller ones take heat differently or something? When I do a larger butt the bone pulls out completely clean, and meat shreds apart with just my hands. I've noticed that when I do sub 10lb shoulders, I need forks to pull, they never seem to get as tender, and the bone doesn't come out clean. Using literally the same method, same temps, same everything. Brine, rest, smoke to 150, foil till 190, foil off till 195-210 depending on how impatient the crowd is. I smoke smaller butts fairly often -- mostly in the 8lb range -- to make my work lunches. In general, I've found that a few specifics work best. First, I smoke at a low temp, which is usually around 210 or 220, for as long as it takes to get to 185 or so. I never foil. I like a good bark and foiling has always ruined it. I also us a dry rub with a decent amount of brown sugar with gives a good crunch to the bark. Never mop. I do let it sit, though, after taking it off the smoker, for about an hour. It's always been tender enough to shred with a strong breeze. It has a lot to do with your butt selection though.
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Aug 3, 2013 05:04
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Thanks a lot for the advice guys! I had to try a beef brisket again today, just to see how the higher temps would work and couldn't be more happy with the results. I did a pork shoulder at the same time, so it drew out the cooking time a bit, but I smoked most the day around 240-245 and foiled around 150 internal temperature. When I pulled the beef off it was right around 190 internal. I remember someone in the thread mentioned putting in the thermometer should feel like you are sticking it into butter--it was! Here are the results: tender with a great smoke ring. Bark is much more pronounced as well. Pork shoulder smoking:  Cutting up the beef brisket:   I even have burnt ends! Thanks again! Meclin fucked around with this message at 03:36 on Aug 4, 2013 |
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Aug 4, 2013 03:32
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