|
Super Rad posted:What? How dare they try and keep their tournaments legitimate? And don't say sponsors, gently caress sponsors - people should just be running tourneys out of their own pocket forever, anyone who says otherwise has issues with entitlement. I was pretty dang specific in my points, I don't think any of it was anti sponsorship as much as anti esports infrastructure, sponsors can and will sponsor things entirely based on the short and long term ability to gain brand exposure, league of legends is quite famous for its various terrible people, opinions and actions yet sponsorship revenue continues to grow massively. I also think it's incredibly silly to say that tournaments should be relying on sponsorship when they charge venue fees to cover costs, if they're not covering costs then they can always charge a higher venue fee, which while may lead to losing some entrants but the tournament will be entirely independent. It's only really been EVO and possibly CEO that have ever gained anything significant from event sponsorship anyway, usually companies just provide pot bonuses to attract players.
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2013 20:28
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 9, 2024 02:04 |
|
|
brian posted:As self defeating and moronic as it is for the top players who want more money in the scene to act like they do, i'm incredibly tired of the people in this thread condoning the rule and the actions of spooky last night. It's not up to the players to ensure that spooky remains in business by keeping people watching streams entertained, just because he essentially promotes them as celebrity players does not mean that they are complicit in that arrangement, nor does it mean that they agree that it's adequate compensation for doing what he wants. If you want to change the culture at the top end of the american scene then become part of the top end of the american scene, otherwise what right does anyone to tell them what to do in the finals of tournaments they've earned their way to? TOs should stop focussing on enforcing arbitrary rules (honestly any rule that relies that heavily on TO discretion and is being forced on every tournament is dumb as gently caress) and start focussing on making their events have enough prestige that people won't want to piss about, either through it being a major event, through personal relationships with the players or through innovative bonuses (like the Civil War swords and the UFGT trophies). Fighters are literally entitled to nothing. Nothing. Zero. TOs are not obligated to cater to the participants in anyway. Fighters show up at events by choice. Period. There is no debating this. There is no philosophical discussion to be had. If fighters do not like certain TOs or certain rules, then they simply should not participate. The end. Why is that so hard to understand? Oh because people are stupid. Literally really loving dumb. They want all kinds of money and attention, but then cry like babies when they are asked to not act like a bunch of idiots. And then when people bring up that they could try running their own events, by fighters, for fighters, no one has poo poo to say because they don't want to actually put that kind of work in and are actually all about making some easy money off of other people's work.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2013 20:30
|
|
|
brian posted:I was pretty dang specific in my points, I don't think any of it was anti sponsorship as much as anti esports infrastructure, sponsors can and will sponsor things entirely based on the short and long term ability to gain brand exposure, league of legends is quite famous for its various terrible people, opinions and actions yet sponsorship revenue continues to grow massively. I also think it's incredibly silly to say that tournaments should be relying on sponsorship when they charge venue fees to cover costs, if they're not covering costs then they can always charge a higher venue fee, which while may lead to losing some entrants but the tournament will be entirely independent. It's only really been EVO and possibly CEO that have ever gained anything significant from event sponsorship anyway, usually companies just provide pot bonuses to attract players. So TOs should charge everyone more money (and not to increase pots mind you, just to make up for lack of sponsorship), just so that players can collude in safety? Again, it's obvious who has the entitlement issues here, and as has been suggested already - try running your own tourney sometime. They're a ton of work and when you put that much work into something it doesn't necessarily feel good to have the whole thing turned into a joke, a joke that gets sponsors upset at you directly.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2013 20:34
|
|
|
ToastyPotato posted:Fighters are literally entitled to nothing. Nothing. Zero. TOs are not obligated to cater to the participants in anyway. Fighters show up at events by choice. Period. There is no debating this. There is no philosophical discussion to be had. If fighters do not like certain TOs or certain rules, then they simply should not participate. The end. Why is that so hard to understand? Oh because people are stupid. Literally really loving dumb. They want all kinds of money and attention, but then cry like babies when they are asked to not act like a bunch of idiots. And then when people bring up that they could try running their own events, by fighters, for fighters, no one has poo poo to say because they don't want to actually put that kind of work in and are actually all about making some easy money off of other people's work. I don't think I said that TOs are obligated to cater to them, I also didn't say that individual TOs aren't entitled to come up with whatever rules they want, what I took issue with was that it is now the first de-facto tournament rule everywhere if you ever want to be covered by the only two significant fighting game news sources, which are responsible for bringing in a large amount of players. I took issue with what spooky did because he was there as the streamer, not as the tournament organiser, if he does both then I take it back but every NYC event i've ever seen him do from Guard Crush through Big Two to NLBC has been ran by Min/Akuma/MikeG/etc, whether they agree with it in hindsight of his actions it doesn't make it not a unilateral decision by him. If he didn't want to stream it then that's entirely his perogative too. Also they get their money from winning (or placing in the later stages of) tournaments through their hard work, yes streaming has helped increase numbers and again is obviously and irrefutably in the best interests of said players, but you're being absurdly dismissive of the amount of work a lot of these players have had to put in to reach the level they have and the money they earn from tournament winnings is almost always entirely from other participants in that tournament who either directly or indirectly they have had to overcome.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2013 20:41
|
|
|
So what does that have to do with ChrisG being a childish shithead and getting called on it?
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2013 20:42
|
|
|
Spooky didn't make a tournament decision. He simply told them to go play offstream or split the pot without wasting his time.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2013 20:43
|
|
|
http://pattheflip.tumblr.com/post/57031574759/on-collusion-fgc-journalism-and-professionalism This is a decent article on this whole she-bang and it touches a little bit on the "SRK-Illuminati" issue too.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2013 20:48
|
|
|
Super Rad posted:So TOs should charge everyone more money (and not to increase pots mind you, just to make up for lack of sponsorship), just so that players can collude in safety? Again, it's obvious who has the entitlement issues here, and as has been suggested already - try running your own tourney sometime. They're a ton of work and when you put that much work into something it doesn't necessarily feel good to have the whole thing turned into a joke, a joke that gets sponsors upset at you directly. Actually, this point works massively against you because TOs are gigantic loving pussies who are afraid of offending the players, which is why Season's Beatings is the only event with a more than $10 buy-in, why UFGT had to drag everybody into doing progressive payouts only recently, and why CEO went from being on time to several hours behind when players casually showed up late this year. That, and Spooky said they were fine to have their stupid bullshit match off stream, but the stream is for fighting. This isn't about collusion. It's about players acting like gigantic loving twats onstage. Almost nobody would give a poo poo if they weren't trying this poo poo on stream (Keits would, but that's because Keits actually cares about running his tournament on schedule).
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2013 20:48
|
|
|
Super Rad posted:So TOs should charge everyone more money (and not to increase pots mind you, just to make up for lack of sponsorship), just so that players can collude in safety? Again, it's obvious who has the entitlement issues here, and as has been suggested already - try running your own tourney sometime. They're a ton of work and when you put that much work into something it doesn't necessarily feel good to have the whole thing turned into a joke, a joke that gets sponsors upset at you directly. Again I have no issue with TOs doing whatever they like with their tournament, my issue is with a number of posters in this thread feeling entitled to their idea of a good viewing experience because they think they're contributing by attracting sponsors merely by watching, even if it comes at the cost of having a series of finals where players have to pretend to be give a poo poo because if they don't they'll get penalised for it. And yes i've contributed directly to running relatively big regional tournaments, I know how much work they are.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2013 20:49
|
|
|
brian posted:I don't think I said that TOs are obligated to cater to them, I also didn't say that individual TOs aren't entitled to come up with whatever rules they want, what I took issue with was that it is now the first de-facto tournament rule everywhere if you ever want to be covered by the only two significant fighting game news sources, which are responsible for bringing in a large amount of players. I took issue with what spooky did because he was there as the streamer, not as the tournament organiser, if he does both then I take it back but every NYC event i've ever seen him do from Guard Crush through Big Two to NLBC has been ran by Min/Akuma/MikeG/etc, whether they agree with it in hindsight of his actions it doesn't make it not a unilateral decision by him. If he didn't want to stream it then that's entirely his perogative too. The money they get from winning is only there because the events exist for them to compete at in the first place. You cannot separate the money from the event itself. When a fighter wins 100$ or 1000, he wins it because of the event at which said tournament was hosted. They literally get their money from the tournament, not just because they have proven themselves in some way. No tournament means no money, no matter how skilled they are at their game. Sp00ky did what he did because he could. If what he did was wrong, no one would have let it fly. Matches have been interrupted before by various things and they continue on after some consultation. The fact that it played out like it did means that all of the "concern" some people are showing over the fighters being stepped on is unfounded. It is not based on reality. There is no real controversy to be had over Sp00ky pulling the plug at NLBC because if there was, the match would have been played or Sp00ky would have been called out for over stepping his bounds by the TO's who were literally in the room with him when it happened.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2013 20:50
|
|
|
jackofarcades posted:Spooky didn't make a tournament decision. He simply told them to go play offstream or split the pot without wasting his time. Well then I take that back and apologise to Spooky.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2013 20:51
|
|
|
brian posted:TOs should stop focussing on enforcing arbitrary rules (honestly any rule that relies that heavily on TO discretion and is being forced on every tournament is dumb as gently caress) and start focussing on making their events have enough prestige that people won't want to piss about, either through it being a major event, through personal relationships with the players or through innovative bonuses (like the Civil War swords and the UFGT trophies). How much of a personal relationship does Chris G have with spooky or any of the guys running NLBC? He didn't seem to care too much about that as a deterrent at all.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2013 20:55
|
|
|
ToastyPotato posted:The money they get from winning is only there because the events exist for them to compete at in the first place. You cannot separate the money from the event itself. When a fighter wins 100$ or 1000, he wins it because of the event at which said tournament was hosted. They literally get their money from the tournament, not just because they have proven themselves in some way. No tournament means no money, no matter how skilled they are at their game. I honestly have no idea what point you're trying to make here, are you going to explain to me that TOs run tournaments by arranging venues and managing brackets next?
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2013 20:55
|
|
|
ToastyPotato posted:Fighters are literally entitled to nothing. Nothing. Zero. TOs are not obligated to cater to the participants in anyway. Fighters show up at events by choice. Period. There is no debating this. There is no philosophical discussion to be had. If fighters do not like certain TOs or certain rules, then they simply should not participate. The end. Why is that so hard to understand? Oh because people are stupid. Literally really loving dumb. They want all kinds of money and attention, but then cry like babies when they are asked to not act like a bunch of idiots. And then when people bring up that they could try running their own events, by fighters, for fighters, no one has poo poo to say because they don't want to actually put that kind of work in and are actually all about making some easy money off of other people's work. Fighters
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2013 21:02
|
|
|
MrWizard posted:You think sponsors want to be part of an event where the integrity is compromised? It makes everyone across the board look bad.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2013 21:04
|
|
|
brian posted:I honestly have no idea what point you're trying to make here, are you going to explain to me that TOs run tournaments by arranging venues and managing brackets next? I'm going to explain this in idiot-proof terms. A tournament is made up of players. Thanks to wide usage of low buy-ins and outdated payout structures, 99% of the players competing won't get paid, even after pot splits. The remaining 1% of players owe it to those 99% to uphold the spirit of the tournament through to the end. If pot monsters just see that it's pointless and the money will only always go to the same dozen players who then just jerk off during finals, they will stop contributing to the pot. Chris G doesn't want to win Chris G's money, he wants to win everybody else's money (along with sponsor money that only happens if there are enough pot monsters). Just the same way, the consoles and stream are provided by somebody else. If Chris G wants to win pot monsters' money, he has to do so on the TO's systems. He has to do so on Spooky's stream. The TO and Spooky can't do their poo poo without sponsors, etc. This is a goddamn social contract. It's why most people don't outright murder their neighbors and rob their houses, even if the police weren't guaranteed to find out. The community is necessary for there to be any tournament at all, and thus you have an obligation to the community if you wish to participate.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2013 21:05
|
|
|
Well thanks for explaining that thing that I directly referenced in the first line of my original post, this is an eye opening experience.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2013 21:06
|
|
|
brian posted:If you want to change the culture at the top end of the american scene then become part of the top end of the american scene, otherwise what right does anyone to tell them what to do in the finals of tournaments they've earned their way to? TOs should stop focussing on enforcing arbitrary rules
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2013 21:12
|
|
|
Lessail posted:How much of a personal relationship does Chris G have with spooky or any of the guys running NLBC? He didn't seem to care too much about that as a deterrent at all. NLBC is a weekly, held in an arcade, people don't show up there to think about sponsors and such. If you can't goof off in a weekly anymore then this scene is truly doomed.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2013 21:12
|
|
|
Doggboat posted:If you are telling everyone they can't tell top players what to do, unless they are top players, why are you telling TOs what to do? I'm assuming you didn't realise there was another page because I addressed this in replies already.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2013 21:15
|
|
|
Double Bill posted:NLBC is a weekly, held in an arcade, people don't show up there to think about sponsors and such. If you can't goof off in a weekly anymore then this scene is truly doomed. I think the context of this weekly matters since it obviously came off the heels of the rule announcement and everyone, player and stream monster alike, was waiting to see who'd go far enough in either enforcing it or deliberating trying to bend it. The whole time during both NLBC and WNF you had dumb jokes about collusion, but art seemed to change his tune after what spooky did. Lessail fucked around with this message at 21:20 on Aug 1, 2013 |
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2013 21:16
|
|
|
Double Bill posted:NLBC is a weekly, held in an arcade, people don't show up there to think about sponsors and such. If you can't goof off in a weekly anymore then this scene is truly doomed. NLBC is one of the 2 big weeklies in the states that is streamed to thousands of viewers. Its a big deal and its not even just goofing off. Again people can goof off, but when everyone is playing serious right up until the end? gently caress that noise.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2013 21:22
|
|
|
Double Bill posted:NLBC is a weekly, held in an arcade, people don't show up there to think about sponsors and such. If you can't goof off in a weekly anymore then this scene is truly doomed. Yeah it's a shame there weren't other setups in there that they could play and goof around on.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2013 21:24
|
|
|
brian posted:I'm assuming you didn't realise there was another page because I addressed this in replies already.  v
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2013 21:24
|
|
|
Double Bill posted:NLBC is a weekly, held in an arcade, people don't show up there to think about sponsors and such. If you can't goof off in a weekly anymore then this scene is truly doomed. Who goofs off in grand finals? On stream? Off stream or in pools when someone plays a different character its fine. thats the match. when the match is on stream and its grand finals. the entire tournament is about THAT match. to poo poo on that match is to poo poo on the entire tournament and everyone involved in it. I dont see how people are upset at this other than people trying to wave a "dont tell me what to do" flag.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2013 21:28
|
|
|
Tsk, chris is antagonizing spooky on twitter. I guess him getting banned from the east coast might be for the best.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2013 21:31
|
|
|
AkumaHokoru posted:Who goofs off in grand finals? On stream? I haven't watched the actual match, but were they playing deliberately sloppy as well, or was it just the character choices? At least if the GF is Sanford vs Dieminion again I'd welcome a bit of off-charactering occasionally, provided they're still trying to win.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2013 21:34
|
|
|
Doggboat posted:It was more of a rhetorical question, because what you have been saying is pretty dumb. v You realise you're calling what i'm saying pretty dumb while completely misinterpreting what I said and refusing to acknowledge the rebuttal or bring forward any reasoning right? Are you going to reply to this with another fantastic tidbit of hurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr or do you actually want to make a point instead of contributing nothing?
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2013 21:34
|
|
|
brian posted:I honestly have no idea what point you're trying to make here, are you going to explain to me that TOs run tournaments by arranging venues and managing brackets next? I'm not really sure what YOUR point is. That fighters should be allowed to do whatever they want? That the rule is dumb and unenforceable? If its unenforceable why are some fighters crying about it? If it is truly destructive, why aren't fighters going off and holding their own events with their own preferred rulesets? It's not even a new rule. EVO has used it for a while and EVO is the biggest event every year. Also your point about TOs making their events "more prestigious" to thwart people sandbagging is just complete nonsense. As is TOs having to put in the effort to be chums with everyone in the community. Like I said, the TOs aren't obligated to do anything that they do not feel is worth doing, just as the players are not obligated to show up to these events. Double Bill posted:NLBC is a weekly, held in an arcade, people don't show up there to think about sponsors and such. If you can't goof off in a weekly anymore then this scene is truly doomed. It's a streamed weekly that takes people's time and money to run. If you want to goof off, do it off stream. Go to NL and hold a FT-x match and ask for it to be streamed, I dunno. You have options outside of "waste other people's time and money." It really isn't a big deal and I suspect most of the players whining about this are people guilty of doing exactly what the rule is trying to stop themselves. Or people are just needlessly choosing to side with shady players because "gently caress esports, gently caress authority!" Who knows?
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2013 21:38
|
|
|
Boobs is Fun! posted:Tsk, chris is antagonizing spooky on twitter. I guess him getting banned from the east coast might be for the best.  Incredible.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2013 21:42
|
|
|
Double Bill posted:NLBC is a weekly, held in an arcade, people don't show up there to think about sponsors and such. If you can't goof off in a weekly anymore then this scene is truly doomed. Clearly the people running NLBC want the streamed portion of the tournament to be legitimate. Respect the people running it. Arcades run on thin margins, so you won't have a scene if you do things that can diminish their income such as chasing away sponsors and disrespecting other players so they don't come back. The arcade scene is on life support as is.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2013 21:45
|
|
|
Double Bill posted:I haven't watched the actual match, but were they playing deliberately sloppy as well, or was it just the character choices? At least if the GF is Sanford vs Dieminion again I'd welcome a bit of off-charactering occasionally, provided they're still trying to win. Judge for yourself!
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2013 21:46
|
|
|
I like all these player twitter accounts espousing how precious and irreplaceable they are. It's partly true that players make the scene, but not specifically these players. If you can't function with a reasonable level of responsibility* to TO's, other players or the Streamer, you can gently caress off and someone else will take your place. Just because we know your name doesn't make you above everyone else. I understand that some players hate this rule and think they should be able to pick whoever, whenever. It's fine if that is what you want to do, but no one is obliged to put up with you when it looks like you are just dicking around. The rule may seem nebulous and unfair, but players acting like poo poo and being babies is the reason they had to try to do something about it.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2013 21:48
|
|
|
ToastyPotato posted:I'm not really sure what YOUR point is. That fighters should be allowed to do whatever they want? That the rule is dumb and unenforceable? If its unenforceable why are some fighters crying about it? If it is truly destructive, why aren't fighters going off and holding their own events with their own preferred rulesets? It's not even a new rule. EVO has used it for a while and EVO is the biggest event every year. Please stop calling players "fighters", it's not common terminology, it's incredibly silly sounding and apart from Noel they don't do any fighting. I've made my points pretty clear, I think the SRK/EH/EVO staff unilateral decision to not cover tournaments that don't adhere to their rule (and in future I think it will inevitably be rules plural) is ridiculous and I think people like you (quite specifically you) have posted condoning the esportsification, or whatever buzzword you want to stick to my forehead so you can make fun of me, of the scene by promoting the idea that players should pretend to do poo poo for the sake of your viewing experience. I don't know where the confusion is since I not only made it pretty clear in the first post but in subsequent, clarifying replies, I also retracted a statement based on being incorrect about the situation, while you're refusing to acknowledge anything i've said.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2013 21:48
|
|
|
PonchAxis posted:
There is no ironicat big enough.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2013 21:48
|
|
|
PonchAxis posted:
I dunno, that seems extremely tongue-in-cheek to me. Lets be honest, if ChrisG were really serious he would have called Spooky a human being.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2013 21:49
|
|
|
It should be worth mentioning for anyone who skips around or hasn't seen the whole thing (or if the video is not totally complete) that Arturo noted both before and after that both players were acting strangely before the match started. And Sp00ky also pointed out that no one was pissed that the match was interrupted, which is something that would happen if your GF match just got plug pulled illegitimately.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2013 21:51
|
|
|
brian posted:TOs should stop focussing on enforcing arbitrary rules (honestly any rule that relies that heavily on TO discretion and is being forced on every tournament is dumb as gently caress) and start focussing on making their events have enough prestige that people won't want to piss about, either through it being a major event, through personal relationships with the players or through innovative bonuses (like the Civil War swords and the UFGT trophies). Wasn't Civil War the tournament where Justin and Chris got chewed out for picking gimmick teams? In the Grand Finals? I might be misremembering, but I'm pretty sure I'm not!! And which one was the one where the same thing happened so Ultradavid stopped casting to eat pizza because the whole thing was a pile of dogshit and he knew it? The whole point of it is that these guys streaming are putting in a lot of work to organize these tournaments to be both watched and played in. The players are just as able to organize their own tournaments if they want to make their own rules, and they're definitely able to just do money matches and small pools. But no, they want all the esports money and fame (mostly fame to attract more people willing to give them money) so rather than just playing their video game they're going to these events (and they are that to many, Events, not just people playing a video game) and openly announcing through their actions that they don't actually take it seriously, and what the other players and the TOs are doing doesn't actually matter to them. That it really doesn't matter who's better. That they don't take it seriously. That they're just there to take money from people that they know they're better than. Of course Spooky's pissed off by this, it's a waste of his time and it's a waste of time to the tens/hundreds/thousands of people playing depending on the tournament, and to that many and more watching the games.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2013 21:53
|
|
|
PonchAxis posted:
 Why is Chris G so dumb. Even if he's making a "joke"...he's still loving dumb.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2013 21:59
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 9, 2024 02:04 |
|
|
PonchAxis posted:Incredible. In his own weird way this is Chris' version of an olive branch.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2013 21:59
|
|