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Can anyone tell me why air con wasn't introduced as standard on the tube as the trains were replaced? I'm talking about the jubilee and Victoria lines here mainly...
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Jul 23, 2013 09:15
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Heat displacement mostly, you can vent it out of the train, but it then gets stuck the the tunnels/stations. The Tube suffers from ancient infrastructure, so the sort of sealed heat extraction systems you'd have elsewhere simply can't be installed without massive overhauls of the infrastructure.
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Jul 23, 2013 09:20
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Manchester Piccadilly got lit the gently caress up this morning. https://twitter.com/WireFM/status/359562365240475648/photo/1 Signal system is knocked out.
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Jul 23, 2013 09:38
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Bozza posted:Heat displacement mostly, you can vent it out of the train, but it then gets stuck the the tunnels/stations. They're working on it with boreholes! http://www.tunneltalk.com/London-Underground-Feb12-Borehole-cooling-for-Green-Park-Station.php
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Jul 23, 2013 09:55
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tentish klown posted:Can anyone tell me why air con wasn't introduced as standard on the tube as the trains were replaced? I'm talking about the jubilee and Victoria lines here mainly... They newest stock does: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S_stock
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Jul 23, 2013 11:44
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Jonnty posted:They newest stock does: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S_stock Those are for subsurface lines, which were (mostly) built for steam trains so there's loads of spare space on the carriages for the coolers and shitloads of ventilation in the tunnels. The Victoria and Jubilee Lines are tube lines which have way smaller trains and much less ventilation in the tunnels. The Jubilee Line Extension was sort of built with the idea of maybe being able to air condition the trains at a later date (the massive open-plan stations and platform-edge doors help manage the airflow) and there have been some interesting pilots on how to fit the coolers onto the trains themselves, but it's still years away at the moment. Mind you just getting proper cooling on the platforms will probably do the trick like 90% of the time.
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Jul 23, 2013 14:13
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goddamnedtwisto posted:(the massive open-plan stations and platform-edge doors help manage the airflow) You probably know this but it's an interesting fact - the platform-edge doors on the Jubilee line are actually justified financially by their ability to restrict the piston effect of trains pushing air along the tunnels and mucking up any attempt to air condition stations - the safety benefit is just a nice perk. This is why it isn't used on any of the above-ground stations on the extension, as the air conditioning benefits aren't there.
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Jul 23, 2013 14:23
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thehustler posted:Manchester Piccadilly got lit the gently caress up this morning. Lightning also killed the signals between Bishops Stortford and Harlow on Tuesday. Service was back to only one train every half hour, stopping most places - instead of the usual eight or ten or something. Luckily enough, the one that was still running was the one I had intended to catch anyway! It's not only trains that don't like lightning - planes, too. The BBC decided to go with a completely unnewsworthy story about a Ryanair flight that got hit with no significant damage, but there's always the odd lightning strike here and there, and some of them do end up causing visible damage. Still perfectly safe in most cases, though.
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Jul 25, 2013 16:33
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quote:The Spanish government has decreed three days of official mourning after Wednesday's train crash near Santiago de Compostela in Galicia, which left at least 78 people dead and 130 injured, 20 of them seriously. Isn't this the kind of thing that should send alarm bells screaming everywhere? Or am I overestimating the amount of data a train sends back to a control room?
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Jul 25, 2013 17:57
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Brovine posted:It's not only trains that don't like lightning - planes, too. The BBC decided to go with a completely unnewsworthy story about a Ryanair flight that got hit with no significant damage, but there's always the odd lightning strike here and there, and some of them do end up causing visible damage. Still perfectly safe in most cases, though. Lightning is the attributed cause of that massive Chinese high speed rail crash that happened recently. Supposedly it struck a location case (lineside box of wiring) and caused all the signals to go green. Lighting caused it, along with a total disregard for safety. coffeetable posted:Isn't (Spain) this the kind of thing that should send alarm bells screaming everywhere? Or am I overestimating the amount of data a train sends back to a control room? I don't think we have any idea what (who?) was meant to be regulating the train's speed yet. There are many automatic systems which can control train speed but in Britain at least, they're only used in problematic or high risk parts of the network. For something analogous, check out how much chaos Morpeth has caused over the years
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Jul 25, 2013 18:47
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coffeetable posted:Isn't this the kind of thing that should send alarm bells screaming everywhere? Or am I overestimating the amount of data a train sends back to a control room? You are unfortunately, especially on a conventional line. Not sure what the case is in Spain but in many cases a train itself will send back no data as all unless the driver radios in to the control room/signaller or uses a lineside telephone. Generally speaking the only knowledge signallers will have of trains' locations will be based on the state of track circuits or axle counters so they'll only know when a train has passed a danger signal - even then, some installations don't have an automatic alarm to alert the signaller when this happens. In the UK, at old-fashioned signal boxes signallers are still expected to visually check a train has passed and they're often not track circuited throughout, with detection systems only used at critical points, like where trains are likely to stop, to prevent the signaller forgetting about them. Jonnty fucked around with this message at 18:54 on Jul 25, 2013 |
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Jul 25, 2013 18:50
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Incidentally, a run-down of the facts as I'm aware of them - they initially suggest driver error caused by poorly designed infrastructure. Minutes before the crash, the driver was coming to the end of a high speed section. The speed limit was (at least) 125mph, monitored by ETCS. This supervises the drivers actions and puts on the brakes if they exceed the current calculated speed limit - based on both normal speed restrictions and whether there are any trains or obstructions ahead. This is an incredibly safe system and at the moment it seems safe to say the crash wouldn't have happened if this system was used on the whole line. Unfortunately, it wasn't - about 4km before the crash site, the line stops being high-speed and ETCS ends. There is a different safety system, but it's nowhere near as comprehensive as ETCS and, as far as I know, more comparable to the UK's AWS - it'll give fairly non-specific warnings to the driver near signals and speed restrictions but as long as the driver acknowledges these warnings the system will never intervene to brake the train. By the time the drivers reached the curve - which in all probability would have been 2 minutes maximum if the distances I've heard are correct - they should have been doing 50mph. One of the drivers, both of whom survived, admits the train was doing at least twice that - it had barely slowed down at all. He didn't mention any problems with the train or any of the safety systems. While that doesn't rule out technical faults, they're looking increasingly unlikely, and as the warning system on these lines is simply meant to supplement the driver's route knowledge rather than replace it, it'd have to have been a serious brake failure or something like that to completely absolve the drivers of responsibility - he should have been braking well before the speed restriction anyway. Having said that, going from full supervision on a high speed line to expecting the driver to slow to 50mph for a comparatively tight curve seems to be asking for trouble. There's a long history on the railways of not holding drivers totally responsible for crashes like this where the infrastructure's been working against them. Allowing a slight lapse from a driver to lead to this seems like poor engineering, and I'd say these drivers are just unlucky that it's their lapse that's exposed this in such devastating fashion. Either way, it'll be very interesting to see what professional opinions are when all the facts come out. All the above could all be completely wrong, but it's another interesting lesson as to how complicated getting railway safety right is even now.
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Jul 25, 2013 19:19
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As someone currently writing a lot of the UK design specs for ETCS, transitions are one of the most complex areas for design and development, picking the transition point is an absolute ballache. Pick poorly and you get this situation where the driver has transitioned out then immediately has to take a course of action to control the train. We are currently looking at a transition point for pure L2 on the East Coast between Donny and Peterborough and its a loving nightmare. Going in is comparatively worse by all means, but out is also tricky. We're still determining the design rules. In terms of European safety systems, while the UK is comparatively far behind in terms of Automatic Train Protection (only on the Chilterns and Gods Wonderful Railway), our TPWS is far above and beyond the basic systems in place on a lot of lines in Europe. For a stop-gap system, its been so effective its essentially killed the safety case for ETCS in the UK, particularly for Level 1.
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Jul 26, 2013 13:35
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double post
Bozza fucked around with this message at 13:37 on Jul 26, 2013 |
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Jul 26, 2013 13:35
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thehustler posted:Manchester Piccadilly got lit the gently caress up this morning. Heh, that happened to me once, I think it was reading station. The bolt hit the power line opposite us, arced to our pantograph, which happened to be right above my head. Biggest bang I've ever heard!
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Jul 26, 2013 15:41
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Hexyflexy posted:Heh, that happened to me once, I think it was reading station. The bolt hit the power line opposite us, arced to our pantograph, which happened to be right above my head. Biggest bang I've ever heard! There's no OLE at Reading though? Apparently a train got hit by lightning at Crewe and it proper fried it.
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Jul 26, 2013 15:46
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Jonnty posted:Incidentally, a run-down of the facts as I'm aware of them - they initially suggest driver error caused by poorly designed infrastructure. Driver has now been arrested: BBC News Hopefully any investigation will be thorough enough to address the design issues, rather than just stopping at blaming the driver.
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Jul 26, 2013 16:49
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Anyone know the nature of the overhead wire problems between Broxbourne and Cheshunt today? The line was closed for most of nine hours with followon cancellations even this late in the day.
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Aug 2, 2013 19:59
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Brovine posted:Anyone know the nature of the overhead wire problems between Broxbourne and Cheshunt today? The line was closed for most of nine hours with followon cancellations even this late in the day. Not sure, but National Rail puts the 'start' time at 6:00 and there were a bunch of thunderstorms rolling around then, so maybe a lightning strike? That's what's causing problems in the Bury St Edmonds area this evening.
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Aug 2, 2013 20:49
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Level crossings! 
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Aug 3, 2013 01:06
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This story isn't afraid to get right to the math: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=the-physics-of-disaster
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Aug 3, 2013 04:41
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Zero Gravitas posted:Level crossings! Oh leave him alone. They're level and they're crossings, what more do you need? That they seem to be considerably more common in England than in Scotland? Actually, I wonder why that is... Come on Bozza do your duty! 
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Aug 3, 2013 07:53
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Iohannes posted:Oh leave him alone. They're level and they're crossings, what more do you need? That they seem to be considerably more common in England than in Scotland? Actually, I wonder why that is... England is more flat.
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Aug 3, 2013 14:37
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Anemone Mine posted:England is more flat.
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Aug 4, 2013 00:29
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Sometimes I get the Overground from Acton instead of Shepherds Bush just for the novelty of a level crossing.
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Aug 4, 2013 12:01
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Going through here each way going to work is the highlight of my day. Suck it cars, you gotta stop for me.
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Aug 4, 2013 15:11
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There's... seven? eight? Something like that, between Stortford and Tottenham Hale which I get the satisfaction from every day. Not counting all the occupation crossings. Screw you, cars.
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Aug 4, 2013 17:53
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I like the Isle of Wight Railway - it has level crossings but they're all pedestrian-only, fully in keeping with its "like a proper railway, only less so" vibe. (Also there's something lovely about the idea of old Tube trains being sent out to play in the countryside when they retire)
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Aug 4, 2013 18:59
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Brovine posted:There's... seven? eight? Something like that, between Stortford and Tottenham Hale which I get the satisfaction from every day. Not counting all the occupation crossings. There are seven between Broxbourne and Tottenham Hale alone, and that stretch gets 9 trains each way per hour off-peak. I think my dad's record is 13 minutes waiting to cross.
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Aug 4, 2013 20:29
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Man, that's really flat. I don't think there's a single level crossing in all of Glasgow.
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Aug 5, 2013 11:52
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Reveilled posted:Man, that's really flat. I don't think there's a single level crossing in all of Glasgow. There used to be a (pedestrian only) one at Rutherglen, no idea if it's still there.
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Aug 5, 2013 12:08
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Because of its location (right next to a roundabout, with platforms either side) I wonder if Mitcham Eastfields is the most abused level crossing (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/8429457/Captured-on-camera-the-drivers-who-risk-lives-flouting-level-crossing-rules.html). I've only lived here a few months and I've seen a couple of incidents of this kind of thing already.
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Aug 5, 2013 12:22
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Semprini posted:There used to be a (pedestrian only) one at Rutherglen, no idea if it's still there. I know the one you mean (though I don't think Rutherglen is officially part of Glasgow), I think I heard that the footpath went to a training center that's now closed, so presumably it's still there, just unused.
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Aug 5, 2013 15:36
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Does anyone have any information on health and safety for workers before and after the health and safety act (1974) or whichever act applied to the railway system? I'm particularly in interested in people's experiences or if it made any difference to the amount of deaths and injuries.
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Aug 5, 2013 18:13
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kingturnip posted:There are seven between Broxbourne and Tottenham Hale alone, and that stretch gets 9 trains each way per hour off-peak. I think my dad's record is 13 minutes waiting to cross. There's definitely another two, maybe three between Broxbourne and Stansted - one at the station for each of Roydon and Sawbridgeworth, and I seem to recall one more to the north of Broxbourne. That's not including any foot or occupation crossings, either, just the public roads.
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Aug 5, 2013 19:46
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Reveilled posted:Man, that's really flat. I don't think there's a single level crossing in all of Glasgow. There is a car crossing at Bowling which used to be for getting to the shipyards, but its been inactive since the area was razed.
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Aug 5, 2013 20:13
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Brovine posted:There's definitely another two, maybe three between Broxbourne and Stansted - one at the station for each of Roydon and Sawbridgeworth, and I seem to recall one more to the north of Broxbourne. There's still one in the industrial/business estate, where I used to work, to the east of Hoddesdon. There used to be two there (it's near the split of the Hertford East & Cambridge lines), but they turned the lightly used Hertford East line crossing into a bridge  e: I remember wrong, it was just the one, it's just before the junction, the crossing is still there next to the bridge though. SybilVimes fucked around with this message at 20:18 on Aug 5, 2013 |
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Aug 5, 2013 20:15
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I work as a train conductor in the North West and cannot get my head round the fact that all the boxes on the Cumbrian coast are being shut and moved under one master signal box presumably miles away. I'm sure it will work eventually but it's already enough of a pain trying to explain to TOC management based in York the logistics of situations. Up here the single line is king.
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Aug 10, 2013 02:00
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Rail fares up 4.6% in 2014  more money for our glorious corporate sponges.
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Aug 13, 2013 08:23
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22700805 The case for and against renationalisation, posted today. Guy on the bottom seems to be using total journeys as a measure of success, despite the fact that that can be driven by other things. Also he looks like a dick.
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Aug 13, 2013 09:03
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