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So apparently life clerics have infinite healing now. A short rest resets channel divinity, and life clerics use channel divinity to heal. Probably wasn't intended on their part given how much they've done to try to limit healing. Edit: nevermind - apparently a "short rest" is an hour. I figured it was five minutes or so. Holy crap why is a short rest that long for most of these recharge abilities?
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Aug 3, 2013 07:41
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neonchameleon posted:On the tragedy side, everyone became worse at skills and the DCs are unchanged. Autokill on a hit vs something with 20hp... how much damage does a 20th level fighter generally do ANYWAY? Must be in the order of 20 per hit, right  This sounds like it would work if it was 'remaining AFTER the attack', like the 4e Executioner, but as written, sounds pointless. Also, this was my reaction on reading the feats list: yeah, these all look fine,, they're actually pretty powerful, and reasonably balanced against each other *scroll down* loving LINGUIST gently caress. I mean for gently caress's sake, really?! All that discussion about feats being equivalent to +2 to a stat, and loving Linguist (sorry, Loremaster, it can get you knowledge skills as well, shame there aren't many of those to make it worth taking more than once) is still a thing, and still gives you no benefits whatsoever to your combat stats. Also, the Arcane Archer thing is fine, but I can't help but wonder what it does that the general Wizard couldn't - is it PURELY a range-booster at the cost of having to hit with a ranged attack in order to even get the spell off? Once again, this all seems like a steaming pile of compromise, with comparatively little to like, and more importantly, presents basically nothing to draw me away from 4e or DungeonWorld or Shadowrun or Paranoia or or or... Also, prepare for absofuckinglutely LUDICROUS frothing from the forums about the fact that marked is a thing now in 5e. Dirk: yeah, short rests are an hour - which is a bizarre decision because short rests are basically necessary to make the party WORK in a fight at all, (except the Wizard ), so patently, there's going to be time for them in even the most unlikely of places.This is improving, I'll give it that, but it's still got a LOOONG way to go, and a VERY short time in which to go there. By my estimation, I think they have maybe six months. At the current glacial pace, they might be about halfway done by then. I'm fairly sure I'd have fun playing it, but then, I have fun playing a lot of games that don't require me to learn a whole new system to play the same old D&D - it's got to the point where I'd probably bother playtesting it, if that wouldn't cut into my time playing the LFR Epic campaign, or Descent, or any of the any other board games I play with my boardgaming group, etc etc etc. It's now an OK retclone, why bother picking it up over all the other OK retclones? And is anyone else really irritated by the fact that they haven't included the level numbers in the titles of the level abilities in the classes doc? It would be so much easier to read if it said '3: Action surge' or whatever. Also, by the fact that 'At Xth level', 'By Xth level', 'Xth level is when', all seem to be used interchangeably? Pick a phrase, annd stick to it, or prepare for much ruleslawyering about what each on means relative to the others.
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Aug 3, 2013 09:05
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thespaceinvader posted:Also, the Arcane Archer thing is fine, but I can't help but wonder what it does that the general Wizard couldn't - is it PURELY a range-booster at the cost of having to hit with a ranged attack in order to even get the spell off? Antimagic field is the "classic" use for that sort of thing. It's normally self only, but you can throw it into an arrow and tag some poor bastard with it to cause him and anyone near him to lose any magic bonuses. Extra points if you hit a wizard who's flying in the air with it. Aside from that, touch spells can be useful, as can area spells that normally have a short range - toss a silence spell further than 100ft away, for instance.
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Aug 3, 2013 09:13
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Is 20 damage per hit a lot? Depends on the fighter. With a greatsword, at 20 you might deal 2d6+5(20 strength)+3(vorpal sword). A power attack at -5 accuracy gives 4d6+13 instead. If you drop down to a 1-handed weapon or dual-wielding then it's a bit less. Say 1d8+8 (can't power attack with 1-handers) per swing. So individual attacks are no where near as amped-up as they get in 3e or 4e. Granted, you get to attack this way 3 times per round, and you have 2 action points per fight so some rounds will be 4 attacks. That's 8 with dual-wielding, or 16d20 if you have advantage.
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Aug 3, 2013 09:42
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Hmm unless I missed something it seems like classes no longer give you a +1 to an ability score. So while Point Buy now allows a 16, and is 30 points instead of 28, you are missing out on one of the bonuses you used to get to one of your primary scores. Technically a 16 in your primary, +1 from race, is still the same 17 that you would have had with a 15 in your primary, a +1 from race and a +1 from class. Except that 16 costs more than a 15 did. 3 points more, and the point buy total only went up 2 points so scores are actually worse if you try to get that same 17.
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Aug 3, 2013 09:50
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Yeah it seems more efficient to start with a 16 in primary and put +2 into the primary twice to cap it out.
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Aug 3, 2013 10:05
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ritorix posted:Is 20 damage per hit a lot? Depends on the fighter. Also, you will rarely get to hit someone who was brought to just 20 HP. Enemies within the killing blow range will probably have 11 HP on average, making even dual-wielding attacks very likely to kill. But it's a nice mechanic that just needs some adjustment to be relevant.
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Aug 3, 2013 11:21
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I feel like the Fighteriest way to make that feel like a proper capstone would be to make it so that you just need to attack someone at 20 or less HP to instakill them. No attack roll, you just do it. You are the Fighter. It sounds like I should really check this packet out, it sounds nuts.
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Aug 3, 2013 14:54
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ProfessorProf posted:I feel like the Fighteriest way to make that feel like a proper capstone would be to make it so that you just need to attack someone at 20 or less HP to instakill them. No attack roll, you just do it. You are the Fighter.
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Aug 3, 2013 15:23
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Seriously. The 220th level capstone for the best fighter in the world should be 'roll your superiority die. This round, you kill that number of creatures of levels lower than yours outright, not save, no nothing'. At this level, the wizard is nuking cities, a few measly critters should be no problem for you.
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Aug 3, 2013 16:04
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Just started reading through the new packet, and they've finally got rid of the +3 to-hit bonus for low-level enemies like kobolds and commoners.  (Still don't see why a feeble little monster and Joe Average get a +1 bonus that a PC with the same stats wouldn't, but it's a start.)EDIT: So, Sculpt Spell: that exists basically so you can shoot a fireball into a melee battle and protect your buddies from getting so much a singed hair, right? Small Strange Bird fucked around with this message at 17:04 on Aug 3, 2013 |
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Aug 3, 2013 16:53
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I just read through the classes in the new packet and I'm blown away by how much this has changed. The Barbarian is flavorful and awesome, the Fighter has two paths I'm actually really interested in trying out, the Mage has a system for making potions/scrolls that I actually want to play around with, the Monk looks like it could actually be fun to play... Anyone planning a playtest for this doc? I'll totally contribute a Barbarian.
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Aug 3, 2013 17:12
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thespaceinvader posted:Also, the Arcane Archer thing is fine, but I can't help but wonder what it does that the general Wizard couldn't - is it PURELY a range-booster at the cost of having to hit with a ranged attack in order to even get the spell off? The long range for a Longbow is 600', and area spells don't require you to hit with the arrow. That's a pretty solid range boost.
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Aug 3, 2013 17:19
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ritorix posted:Yeah it seems more efficient to start with a 16 in primary and put +2 into the primary twice to cap it out.
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Aug 3, 2013 17:54
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So after reading some posts on the official forum I am confused about two weapon fighting. A few people on Wizard's board seem to believe/imply that two weapon fighting doubles the number of attacks you make. If a fighter attacks 3 times at 12th level they get 3 more attacks, doubled if they action surge. If a 12th level monk nova'd their ki points to make 8 attacks they would actually get 16. I didn't think this was how Two-Weapon Fighting worked, in fact the wording almost makes it seem like two weapon fighting was incompatible with the extra attacks at 5th/8th and so on. What do you think is the way it actually works?
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Aug 3, 2013 19:49
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It's not written very well, yeah. The wording for both two-weapon fighting and the multi-attack features seems to make the features exclusive. Think they're supposed to work together though (and it's an easy wording fix if that's so) to get those big attack sequences, otherwise there's no point in using 2 weapons past a certain level.
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Aug 3, 2013 20:14
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Ryuujin posted:So after reading some posts on the official forum I am confused about two weapon fighting. A few people on Wizard's board seem to believe/imply that two weapon fighting doubles the number of attacks you make. If a fighter attacks 3 times at 12th level they get 3 more attacks, doubled if they action surge. If a 12th level monk nova'd their ki points to make 8 attacks they would actually get 16.
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Aug 3, 2013 20:37
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I really do like how they've used Traditions/Paths/whatever to split the classes into simple and complex versions like with Fighter Gladiator & Knight vs Warrior- dialable complexity is a good design goal, as long as they add respec rules so that new players have the option of switching to a deeper variant. The Fighter Gladiator superiority dice mechanic is a little vague- can you only spend 1 per turn? If not, then you can dump them all onto the first attack that hits for +6d6 damage (or imposes a massive stack of penalties). If you're only limited to 1 maneuver per attack, then after level 3-4 they're all effectively at-wills with a pointless layer of bookkeeping. Monk Ki abilities certainly look fun, though the numbers are a bit off (an 11th level ability that does 1d10 damage in a 15ft cone vs one that doubles all damage an enemy takes from you?). Really, the '1 point/level, return after short rest' mechanics seem a bit poorly balanced. At levels 1-4 you'll only get to do a handful of interesting things per combat, and at 10+ they're effectively unlimited. Most of them don't even unlock for the first few levels. It feels like they've walked straight back into the 3e trap of 5-8 being the sweet spot at which the game gives you enough toys to have fun, and enough limits to keep the rules meaningful. Presumably it's got some sort of terrible 'You have to earn your fun' justification. Still, with this new packet it look like a game I'd actually play. Certainly wouldn't run it, and certainly not in preference to 4e/13th Age/most other games, but it's a start.
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Aug 3, 2013 23:37
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Mikan posted:The long range for a Longbow is 600', and area spells don't require you to hit with the arrow. That's a pretty solid range boost. So my bigass battlemat that covers the width of my kitchen table is roughly 40"x40" in 1" squares. If I were to try to actually use minis, the wizard's mini would be literally in my fridge. Or maybe standing on top of the cat tree in the next room - firing AoE arrow-bombs onto the battlefield. That is simultaneously cool and dumb. This playtest packet seems to have a lot of cool and a lot of dumb. Definitely a big improvement over the months of "why would anyone play this?"
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Aug 4, 2013 02:12
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How often is Coup de Grace supposed to come up? I get that it's wickedly strong, but ctrl + f seems to indicate the only thing team PC has to inflict Unconscious is the spell Sleep. Is it supposed to be a rare, GM/campaign dependent thing? Like, catching some kobolds sleeping on watch sort of stuff?
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Aug 4, 2013 03:21
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Coup de Grace is there because if the villain sends an assassin after the king the assassin knifes him in his sleep/bathtub. Without it being mentioned in the rules you get a bunch of dorks arguing that the 1d4+4 dagger with the Con save 12 poison would take an average of 8 rounds to kill the warrior king Bjornensen. Then Wizards getting a bunch of escalating SoS spells like Sleep turned it into "Well, I cast Sleep and then Ralph's character pulls a Coup de Grace."
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Aug 4, 2013 06:22
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Razorwired posted:Coup de Grace is there because if the villain sends an assassin after the king the assassin knifes him in his sleep/bathtub. Without it being mentioned in the rules you get a bunch of dorks arguing that the 1d4+4 dagger with the Con save 12 poison would take an average of 8 rounds to kill the warrior king Bjornensen. Then Wizards getting a bunch of escalating SoS spells like Sleep turned it into "Well, I cast Sleep and then Ralph's character pulls a Coup de Grace."
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Aug 4, 2013 09:28
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The new L&L talks all about fighters and character complexity in the new packet. Some other news items...the warden is back in internal testing, as is a warlord subclass.
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Aug 5, 2013 08:45
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I no longer have any idea what is happening with Next but I can no longer be irrationally angry about it. It really looks like the devs are taking some of our criticisms to heart! I don't know how or why suddenly but I can't really complain about it. Some of the new Fighter stuff looks pretty cool, and all without just copying 13th Age or whatever either. So far 13th Age and DW are still way more interesting but I'm back to paying attention to D&D anyway. Was there any kind of indication about what spurred this design direction? Also, are the monsters updated at all or do we still have slapdash monster math?
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Aug 5, 2013 15:11
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Mendrian posted:I no longer have any idea what is happening with Next but I can no longer be irrationally angry about it.
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Aug 5, 2013 16:42
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Mendrian posted:I no longer have any idea what is happening with Next but I can no longer be irrationally angry about it. Nope. It's actually looking kind of interesting now. Seeing it on paper, I'm even getting on board with the "novice tier" or whatever it's called because you don't have to pick a loving feat right away. Still major problems, and it could regress next packet, but I'm kind of hopeful? It's still competing with a lot of other good games, but right now I'm thinking of pitching it to my group for a few sessions and pushing Fate Core back until my new dice come in.
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Aug 5, 2013 16:57
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"Fighter's Supremacy." That's cute, I like that. 
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Aug 6, 2013 01:38
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I just DL'd the Penny Arcade Next podcasts with Chris Perkins - has anyone listened to them? Good/bad/indifferent?
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Aug 6, 2013 01:44
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If you liked the other podcasts with Penny Arcade et al, you'll probably like these too. Chris Perkins is a good DM, and I like the humorous way the others roleplay. Two of the characters are 'chosen' by their gods, and the mechanical benefits sounded very powerful. I don't know enough about the newest playtest packets to say how this is balanced, or if it's even in the rules and not just something the DM made up. Acquisitions Incorporated is in the Forgotten Realms now, but that could have nothing to do with Next's default setting and just be where Chris Perkins chose for Jim Darkmagic's multiverse traveling mansion to crash.
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Aug 6, 2013 02:56
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So much positivity in the last few pages. That makes me scared for some irrational reason.
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Aug 6, 2013 05:42
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dwarf74 posted:I'm in the same boat. I had been saying so long that I really wanted to give Next a chance without any chances arising, I was starting to think maybe I was lying to myself and would just hate it anyway no matter what. This. I still don't think it's looking at all good. But on the other hand if they'd come out with this playtest packet a year ago I'd have been optimistic that they were heading in the right direction. And even this packet is enough for cautious optimism as opposed to derisive laughter.
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Aug 6, 2013 10:27
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Mendrian posted:
Maybe Mike Mearls was replaced by a mind flayer? Something must have happened to cause such a change in design. Incidentally, it seems 50% of Enworld users polled said they have stopped playtesting: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?339834-Playtest-Fatigue knux911 fucked around with this message at 10:53 on Aug 6, 2013 |
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Aug 6, 2013 10:33
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sebmojo posted:I just DL'd the Penny Arcade Next podcasts with Chris Perkins - has anyone listened to them? Good/bad/indifferent? They are in rare form with the humor. Jerry flinging insults at the gnome NPC was some fantastic stuff. It's a real fresh breath of air after the Mearles live plays, and the absolute poo poo show that was the mines of madness podcast.
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Aug 6, 2013 17:26
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neonchameleon posted:This. I still don't think it's looking at all good. But on the other hand if they'd come out with this playtest packet a year ago I'd have been optimistic that they were heading in the right direction. And even this packet is enough for cautious optimism as opposed to derisive laughter. You know, I'm mildly curious if they'll ever fix the whole issue with 9th level spells and quadratic power increases. They seem to have toned down a lot of spells (and spell slots), but fighters still scale linearly and magic is still amazing. On the other hand, at low levels my cleric is actually envying some of the stuff on my group's fighter's list of abilities, so there is that. I'm not sure that I envy the abilities enough to play a fighter instead of a caster, but at least it's there.
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Aug 6, 2013 17:52
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Dirk the Average posted:You know, I'm mildly curious if they'll ever fix the whole issue with 9th level spells a) accept that magic doesn't have to be able to do everything and not everything has to be done by magic. Just because a genie can grant wishes* does not mean that players need to be able to get a grant wishes power*, or at least not using the same game section as the "shoot people with fireballs" category. or b) give 17+ level fighters abilities in line with being able to rend the very heavens asunder. The problem with A is that, well, we saw how that went down with the target audience last time. The problem with B is that to give Fighters something on par with "Rip holes into another dimension" you're either going to have to give them weeaboo anime muscle spells, "Storygame" narrative-effecting abilities, or things that should be "earned through play not through class features" (like a castle full of dudes). But yeah, the latest play packet has me cautiously optimistic, so who knows? *the genie granting wishes therefore wish is a spell thing is one of the funnier ones. In the original stories, a Wish wasn't a thing. Genie's don't have Wish Granting Powers. The "Three Wishes" Genie was just an extremely powerful being who, out of gratitude towards the hero, agreed to perform three favours of his choice for him as long as they were within his not inconsiderable power. The bound Genies again did not "grant Wishes" in the sense of a wish being a thing, they were just required to do the bidding of whoever had them bound to the limits of its again not inconsiderable power. Wish being a spell is basically like having "do a favour for yourself" as a class feature.
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Aug 6, 2013 20:45
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Splicer posted:For this to happen they'd need to either I think at this point they have kind of dug themselves into a hole with the amount of very powerful yet "classic" spells that exist. Can you imagine the grognard raging if they removed the wish spell? There is also the secondary problem of in general magic is less limited then things like swinging your sword. Even rather mundane spells can be very powerful if you have a creative person behind the character thinking of interesting ways to use them. This follows to many other systems as well, not just DnD.
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Aug 7, 2013 00:07
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TheGreySpectre posted:I think at this point they have kind of dug themselves into a hole with the amount of very powerful yet "classic" spells that exist. Can you imagine the grognard raging if they removed the wish spell? I don't know. I bet they could get away with scrapping the arcane spell "Wish" if they kept things like "Ring of Wish" in the game. I love that Wish exists, but it really ought to be something linked to a super-rare consumable resource and not a spell that refreshes daily.
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Aug 7, 2013 04:28
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OtspIII posted:I don't know. I bet they could get away with scrapping the arcane spell "Wish" if they kept things like "Ring of Wish" in the game. I love that Wish exists, but it really ought to be something linked to a super-rare consumable resource and not a spell that refreshes daily.
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Aug 7, 2013 10:32
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For mechanical reasons, "wish" (and any other 9th level spell) can remain a spell. It doesn't have to be a spell that's on the wizard's spell list. You can still have a world were magic can do everything, and there are ways for players to access it regardless of class, as long as the wizard does not do ALL the magic.
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Aug 7, 2013 15:02
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Rexides posted:For mechanical reasons, "wish" (and any other 9th level spell) can remain a spell.
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Aug 7, 2013 15:20
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