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Going gridless is fine up to the point where you have a player disagree with a DM ruling on anything positioning related. At that point, you'll wish you had a grid to prevent any arguments. A good group can make a gridless D&D work, along with nearly any other system they decide to play. Not everyone is fortunate enough to play with good groups, though.
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May 20, 2013 23:17
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isndl posted:Not everyone is fortunate enough to play with good groups, though.
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May 21, 2013 00:11
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Yawgmoth posted:At which point you're better off not playing. Bad gaming is worse than not gaming at all. You have no idea. I had a session a few weeks back where one of our players flipped his poo poo out because everyone just sort of spontaneously started role playing via MapTool's in game chatbox instead of over Skype. He used phrases like "It isn't D&D anymore! It's missing what makes D&D, D&D!" and I kid you not that was the least over the top thing he said in about 1-2 solid hours of ranting about how evil it is to use chat and not verbally rp, he kept moving the goalposts too. (We eventually found a compromise that let most of us RP via the chatbox anyways  )
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May 21, 2013 00:22
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Yawgmoth posted:It's especially difficult to put together when your main gaming platform is IRC. I'd rather we all just visualize it in our heads and keep the game moving instead of dicking around with minis. If you're playing online, maybe consider maptool? I'm playing in a LONG running maptool game and I super enjoy it.
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May 21, 2013 01:18
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Yawgmoth posted:At which point you're better off not playing. Bad gaming is worse than not gaming at all. But you can at least turn it into OK gaming if you take some steps like using a grid. And when you're short on alternatives I'd say that's better than no gaming at all, especially when nearly every group you join prior has been deteriorating after a few weeks. 
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May 21, 2013 01:27
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Danhenge posted:If you're playing online, maybe consider maptool? I'm playing in a LONG running maptool game and I super enjoy it. isndl posted:But you can at least turn it into OK gaming if you take some steps like using a grid. And when you're short on alternatives I'd say that's better than no gaming at all, especially when nearly every group you join prior has been deteriorating after a few weeks.
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May 21, 2013 03:05
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So I got really bored at work today and started wondering how much gold my character could make if he quit the adventuring business and opened up a silkworm farm. By my estimates I was looking at around 500 gold a month on the low end just for a small scale operation. Not too bad. This is of course assuming you know a Druid willing to keep your supply of mullberry trees replenished.
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May 21, 2013 03:15
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Yawgmoth posted:Maptool has always been poo poo in my eyes. I have never had a game actually run in it; every single time there has been some kind of connection issue with half the people, or perpetual lagging, or fifty other problems. Much easier to just find people who don't need a grid and play on IRC. If you use a VPN like Hamachi you'll be fine with no errors.
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May 21, 2013 03:17
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Yawgmoth posted:Because I want to play D&D, and feats/skills/spells 0-9th level/hit points/AC/saving throws/etc./ad nauseam don't give a gently caress how I represent combat? I'm not gonna say that grid combat is inherently good/bad/better/worse/anything than not, I just find it to be entirely optional. Just by way of the roughest examples, Combat Reflexes (a prerequisite for a dozen other feats) pertains to Attacks of Opportunity that explicitly require precise positioning in order to be of any consequence at all. If your GM just lets anybody go just about anywhere because they asked to avoid AoOs before moving (which just boils down to a lovely 'gotcha' to new players in the end) then the feat does nothing at all. Tumble's main use is letting you avoid AoOs, but if you were never going to provoke them anyway (because 'Theatre of the Mind' or whatever) then why bother? And literally every spell has its range listed in 5-foot increments, which just somehow happens to match up to the distances the book recommends you use for your grid. Yawgmoth posted:It's rather a pain in the rear end to have to spend 5-15 minutes setting up a grid full of N/PCs and drawing on a board for terrain and putting together all that poo poo when I could just spend 1-2 minutes describing where things are and use the time saved on actually playing the game. It's especially difficult to put together when your main gaming platform is IRC. I'd rather we all just visualize it in our heads and keep the game moving instead of dicking around with minis. In my experience, spending 10-20 minutes out of a 5-hour session to ensure that everyone always knows exactly where they and their allies are in relation to all their enemies, so nobody every has to ask "...but I thought you said I was over there?" and nobody every has to play "mother may I" to hit all the orcs (but coincidentally none of their allies) with their Fireball spell isn't too much work. --- Honestly, I'm not even sure what you're looking for here. 3.x is clearly designed to be played with a grid and markers of some kind. Your initial post and responses... Yawgmoth posted:That it does, which I think is what I was looking for. I guess some people just really need that feeling of impartiality to feel successful in their gaming?
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May 21, 2013 03:23
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I can see how not having a grid may work, but my experiences have been very "tactical" so to speak which needed a lot of information to be precise turn by turn. A free flowing RP heavy campaign where the combat is just a metaphor for your awakening into adulthood by overcoming thematically appropriate encounters is probably where you don't need a grid.
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May 21, 2013 03:27
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J. Alfred Prufrock posted:Ignoring that "I want to play D&D" is totally meaningless since "D&D" means so many different things to so many different people...yes, actually, a bunch of feats, some skills, and many, many spells do "give a gently caress" how you represent combat. quote:In my experience, spending 10-20 minutes out of a 5-hour session to ensure that everyone always knows exactly where they and their allies are in relation to all their enemies, so nobody every has to ask "...but I thought you said I was over there?" and nobody every has to play "mother may I" to hit all the orcs (but coincidentally none of their allies) with their Fireball spell isn't too much work. quote:3.x is clearly designed to be played with a grid and markers of some kind. quote:...just make it sound like you're fishing for people to agree with your opinion that anybody who needs a grid is a big baby that is scared of trusting a DM (need[s] that feeling of impartiality) or just needs to get off your gaming lawn. Also, combat reflexes is a poo poo feat that most DMs drop from any prerequisite because AoOs happen so infrequently.
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May 21, 2013 04:18
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Yawgmoth posted:And what exactly is stopping me from doing stupid end-runs around monsters in a grid format? In a gridless format if you say "I want to avoid taking AoOs" the DM either says "okay sure, you have the range of movement to do that" or "okay, but you'll need to double move or give me a tumble check". Which is what your precious grid does anyways, except that it involves someone staring for 30 seconds instead of declaring their intent. Are your players incapable of planning prior to it becoming their turn? I have literally never played D&D where the players weren't thinking about their next move the entire time they were waiting for it to come. The whole reason I'm able to plan my move in advance is that I don't have to ask a bunch of lovely questions about exactly how I'm place right now - I can just see it. And I'm pretty sure nobody but you is really defending gridless play. I'm also really shocked that you've never seen an AoO in your 15 years of gridless play because it's a set of rules that's basically begging for a grid. In the two years I played Living Greyhawk I saw dozens and dozens. Danhenge fucked around with this message at 04:35 on May 21, 2013 |
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May 21, 2013 04:32
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Yawgmoth: Hey, what do you guys think of gridless play? Everyone: Well, you can play without it but 3.x is desi- Yawgmoth: 
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May 21, 2013 04:36
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Eox posted:Yawgmoth: Hey, what do you guys think of gridless play? Yeah this is pretty much the prime example of what happens when a big ol' nerd goes looking for support for his pet opinion and doesn't find it.
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May 21, 2013 04:58
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Yawgmoth posted:
Sez' you. I killed 4 bug bears in a single round thanks to it. Than again I was a large half dragon with a reach weapon so...
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May 21, 2013 05:06
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Yawgmoth posted:Also, combat reflexes is a poo poo feat that most DMs drop from any prerequisite because AoOs happen so infrequently. Did you ever think that maybe dropping grids is the reason you see AoO's happen so infrequently? Anyway, you can drop grids from 3.5, but it's a houserule that drops a lot of the tactical focus and requires ignoring a bunch of minor stuff from a lot of different subsystems. That doesn't mean it's bad, it's just not RAW.
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May 21, 2013 11:02
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Raenir Salazar posted:Sez' you. I killed 4 bug bears in a single round thanks to it. Than again I was a large half dragon with a reach weapon so... I have a barbarian/frenzied berserker I'm still playing who's leveled enough to get Supreme Cleave, which lets you five foot step between cleaves, and I managed to clear out an entire bar fight while dual wielding a broken bottle and an increasingly damaged chair in one round. Granted, I attacked some innocent people who weren't actually involved in the fight to branch my way over to the group that would have been too far away otherwise and had some serious explaining to do to the lawful good ranger afterward. 
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May 21, 2013 11:32
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Piell posted:Did you ever think that maybe dropping grids is the reason you see AoO's happen so infrequently? And for everyone bellowing about TACTICS!!  : it doesn't drop tactics, it just changes the focus of the tactics from exact positioning to general positions and targeting. Unless you're consistently playing "12 kobolds who spread out amongst the party who is also spread way the gently caress out all the time" then it's not really necessary. What matters is what you're hitting and how, not where you're standing when you hit it.
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May 21, 2013 15:59
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Yawgmoth posted:I think playing a game where 3/4 of the party plays a spellcaster and the other 1/4 is just as deadly is the reason I don't see any AoOs. Gridless D&D fucks over melee subtly, though.
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May 21, 2013 16:33
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Yawgmoth posted:I think playing a game where 3/4 of the party plays a spellcaster and the other 1/4 is just as deadly is the reason I don't see any AoOs. Again, where you're standing only seems not to matter because you've never allowed it matter because you don't play with a grid.
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May 21, 2013 17:24
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things off the top of my head that require a pretty specific positioning/range understanding 1. Range increments/ranged sneak attack/PBS 2. Sight range especially in darkness/low light 3. all spells with an area affect 4. spells designed to hinder line of sight (fog/wall spells) 5. cover 6. range on aura effects and the like 7. attacks of opportunity 8. trap sensors Unless you are playing with genius level players with the spacial awareness of a computer, why force yourself to try to keep all these stats and distances in your head (not to mention every other player's heads) when you can have an easily referable visual representation?
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May 21, 2013 18:09
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Since there doesn't seem to be a 2nd Ed thread, I hope it's okay to ask here? Has anyone bought the recent reprints of the core books? Are they decent? I hear some bitching about the art but I gave my copies away eons ago and would like to replace them.
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May 21, 2013 20:01
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If a character is behind by one level, roughly how many encounters would it take for them to catch up to the rest of the party? Assuming an average 13 or so encounters per level. I know that there's formulas somewhere to calculate the XP gains according to CR and you can use online calculators to spit it out for you, but the DM isn't really tracking XP which makes that a little complicated.
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Jun 3, 2013 06:03
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isndl posted:If a character is behind by one level, roughly how many encounters would it take for them to catch up to the rest of the party? Assuming an average 13 or so encounters per level. Well the thing of it is you'd fall behind again occasionally because if you were tracking by XP the other members of the party would hit the threshold of XP for the next level sooner than you would.
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Jun 3, 2013 06:51
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Yeah, but the gap should theoretically be decreasing over time. What would be a good point to say "Alright, you're now progressing at the same rate as everyone else"? Or is there no good number for that, just go with personal preference?
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Jun 3, 2013 07:37
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isndl posted:Yeah, but the gap should theoretically be decreasing over time. What would be a good point to say "Alright, you're now progressing at the same rate as everyone else"? Or is there no good number for that, just go with personal preference? Why aren't you keeping the characters at the same level? There's no reason not to. Piell fucked around with this message at 13:45 on Jun 3, 2013 |
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Jun 3, 2013 13:29
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Racial Level Adjustments that get bought off. I guess you can still ask the question as to why not keep them the same level anyways, but that was the DM decision at the time.
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Jun 3, 2013 23:05
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Well, I had players who had LA-adjusted races, and they were behind for a level or two, but once they hit LA+0 I just slingshotted them into the same level bracket as everyone else the next time they gained a level.
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Jun 3, 2013 23:14
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Recently started looking at Iron Heroes, and more than most of the actual classes what drew me was the Spirit Servant class for the Spiritualist's "familiar", from the Player's Companion. It seems pretty interesting, and obviously not as strong as an actual class since it is on top of the Spiritualist itself. If I ever got the chance to play Iron Heroes it seems like ignoring the Spiritualist part and just straight up playing the Spirit Servant would be a fun thing to play. But it is clearly not up to a PC classes level, since it has the smallest amount of HP a level and the smallest amount of skill points a level. It gets feats at the rate of NPCs instead of PCs, gets no bonus feats and is the most restrictive when it comes to Mastery Feats. So I am wondering what one would do to bring it up to a PC class level. I would assume allow the Spirit Servant to spend the same number of points on attributes as PCs do, probably give it the same feat progression as PCs, maybe give it traits but being something other than human some of its starting abilities are kind of like traits anyway. Possibly increase the HP a level or Skill Points a level, perhaps both, since it isn't just an add-on to another class if it is being played by itself. Maybe it should have a better Feat Mastery progression? Instead of basically being restricted to two categories, which I don't think any other class is. Those are just some idea I had, but I am not sure if they are what others would suggest or not. So what would you suggest? How would you expand it into a full class for a Player?
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Jun 18, 2013 11:29
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Been a while since this thread's seen some love, so here's my question; I'm playing an abjuror in a pathfinder campaign and really finding it a little difficult to be "useful" despite picking spells that seem best overall. My save DC's are high (18 for Level 2 spells) so monsters for the most part fall over and die, here's my typical load out. 4 0th Level spells: Mage Hand, Detect Magic, Daze, Resistance. (Due I get a 5th one for being an abjuror?) 7 1st Level Spells: The DM let's us pick 1 spell we can spontaniously cast instead of some other spell, so that's Shield. Shield/Silent Image, Mage Armor, Cause Fear, Colour Spray, Protection from Evil, Ray of Enfeeblement, Grease. 4 2nd Level Spells: [Empty, Alacritous Cogitation*], Glitterdust, Web, Create Pit. *Here I can pretty much use any one of my second level spells, I generally think Command Undead, Ghoul Touch or Deafness/Blindness as my go-to's. Part of the Abjuror problem has been "When an enemy appears that's worth buffing against, its already too late", such as when a Troll Vampire thing dominated the archer who pifferated me with arrows, I lived. So far debuff's haven't been too useful against the Big Uglies, the DM throws some ridiculous boss monsters that had something like 30 strength or 20 dex so my one debuff isn't enough. I THINK I've been the most useful when there's been a crowd of several weaker CR 3 enemies like dire rats and I just colour sprayed them all into oblivion. I understand as an abjuror I should be buffing or debuffing, I'm taking the class because "Not Dying" is my playstyle and I'm aiming for Initiate of the 7-Fold Viel. But my most effective seems to be with Necromancy or Illusion/Conjuration, not Abjuration.
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Jul 27, 2013 22:21
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Raenir Salazar posted:Been a while since this thread's seen some love, so here's my question; I'm playing an abjuror in a pathfinder campaign and really finding it a little difficult to be "useful" despite picking spells that seem best overall. I'm not sure why you aren't using Sleep (unless you took Enchantment as a barred school) as your spontaneous cast first level spell, because at levels 3-4 (what I am assuming you're at due to having access to second level spells) you're going to end non-boss encounters almost instantly (provided your DM is squaring you against equivalently leveled threats), and if a boss comes with other minions, you're at least going to shut them down. If you're planning long term, Necromancy is an amazing school to get bonus spells and increased DCs. The low level debuffs aren't super exciting because IIRC you have to make a successful melee touch attack, but summoning greater undead or wailing like a banshee are going to be tremendously useful later on.
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Aug 3, 2013 04:18
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homeless poster posted:I'm not sure why you aren't using Sleep (unless you took Enchantment as a barred school) as your spontaneous cast first level spell, because at levels 3-4 (what I am assuming you're at due to having access to second level spells) you're going to end non-boss encounters almost instantly (provided your DM is squaring you against equivalently leveled threats), and if a boss comes with other minions, you're at least going to shut them down. I imagine it's because Sleep doesn't scale well, so you can just prep it multiple times at first/second level, and for a spontaneous spell take something that'll stay useful at higher levels. I would've gone for Color Spray or Grease, though.
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Aug 4, 2013 08:44
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Heatwizard posted:I imagine it's because Sleep doesn't scale well, so you can just prep it multiple times at first/second level, and for a spontaneous spell take something that'll stay useful at higher levels. I would've gone for Color Spray or Grease, though. Yeah, Sleep got a sort of nerf from 2E -> 3.X because it suddenly gave the target a save to resist where before it just checked hit dice. Really any first level spell is going to scale poorly as long as it operates off a save, but I'd also hope that his DM isn't going to make a character stick with a first level spell as their spontaneous casting choice through an entire campaign, or else regardless of what spell you initially chose, it's going to reach a point of obsolescence. EDIT: It just occurred to me that it'd be a pretty cool variant of being a specialist wizard if instead of memorizing one more spell per day or getting a bonus to DCs or whatever, instead specialist wizards can always spontaneously cast any given spell for their specialty school that they know in exchange for an equal level spell.
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Aug 8, 2013 05:44
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homeless poster posted:EDIT: It just occurred to me that it'd be a pretty cool variant of being a specialist wizard if instead of memorizing one more spell per day or getting a bonus to DCs or whatever, instead specialist wizards can always spontaneously cast any given spell for their specialty school that they know in exchange for an equal level spell. It'd also drop game balance in the trash, spontaneous casting of all known spells of a given school is very powerful on a character with no limit on known spells.
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Aug 8, 2013 07:45
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homeless poster posted:Yeah, Sleep got a sort of nerf from 2E -> 3.X because it suddenly gave the target a save to resist where before it just checked hit dice. Really any first level spell is going to scale poorly as long as it operates off a save, but I'd also hope that his DM isn't going to make a character stick with a first level spell as their spontaneous casting choice through an entire campaign, or else regardless of what spell you initially chose, it's going to reach a point of obsolescence. It's mainly the fact that once enemies start having more than four hit dice, Sleep just turns off, and there's not a whole lot you can do about it. DCs can be cranked, if you put in effort, and sometimes dudes roll ones. Grease also has the advantage that, even if the target makes his balance check, the act of making balance checks leaves you flatfooted. veekie posted:It'd also drop game balance in the trash, spontaneous casting of all known spells of a given school is very powerful on a character with no limit on known spells. Losing a spell per day is kind of big, and wizards can already leave slots unallocated to prep spells in the middle of the day. All it would really do is ensure no one can ambush you when you have a list full of nothing but non-combat spells, and how often does that really come up?
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Aug 8, 2013 07:57
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Very much not so, especially if you take from Conjuration and Transmutation. It means the ability to solve just about any problem instantly using their known spells, targeting their weakest defense. You always have access to the best point removal AND the best mass countering. It means being able to prepare Confusion, and convert it on the fly into Black Tentacles, Summon Monster or Solid Fog to counter just about any situation. Worth a hell lot more than one more spell slot, filled with a spell that may or may not be applicable.
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Aug 8, 2013 09:04
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Sleep never got much use in our group, mostly because it's a one-round casting time (so it goes off just before your next turn). By the time the spell was cast, everything was already dead/nearly so, or split up so it would only hit like one guy.
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Aug 8, 2013 13:28
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I was able to completely nullify a camp of 8 hobgoblins with my 7th level beguiler after a pretty effective minor image and 2 deep slumbers. but yeah, without some sneaking or other trickery any sleep spell is hard to pull off effectively.
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Aug 8, 2013 14:03
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Largely because I was going Abjuration as my specialization (for Seven Fold Viel for the "Not Die Ever" playstyle), so I figured I would just use one of my Abjuration slots for it or something, I don't quite remember now as its been a few weeks and the DM got bored like he always does with everything else in life.  Anyways, I have decided I wanted to try giving DM'ing a go, although I'm new at it I'm doing a lot of research at various other D&D forums like the Giant in the Playground to learn from others experiences. If anyone is interested we'ld try to make it a weekly thing using Skype and opensource DM'ing software like MapTools, so just PM me.
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Aug 29, 2013 01:26
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I might've been the only person who really liked the d20 SAGA Star Wars system with the bizarre square books, but this seems to be the thread to discuss it in. So after thinking I'd sold them, I found my old books in a forgotten corner of my house. I liked what I played of the system, and I want to run a game where the players are an Imperial black ops squad just after the first Death Star is destroyed. I'm hoping for a feel somewhere between Blackwater and the average Shadowrun team, with the eventual confrontation of "wow what we're being asked do here is kind of messed up even if we're safeguarding the entire galaxy from anarchist rebels, maybe we should reconsider this." Any party Jedi will be state-sanctioned Dark Jedi apprentices, and encouraged to use Dark Side powers that might eventually drive them insane. I have the core book, Scum and Villainy, and Starships of the Galaxy. I've only played this system a couple times, and my memories are foggy at best. So, keeping with d20 tradition, what important system breakages should I be keeping in mind, and what books am I going to absolutely need to get this idea off the ground? Should I skip the SAGA idea and just start looking into the new Fantasy Flight system?
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Sep 29, 2013 07:04
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