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Being able to get a job without X does not in any way contradict the idea that X is useful.
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Aug 6, 2013 18:54
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I've interviewed a few dozen firmware engineers and I've never seen a github listed. It's great for web dev, python, ruby, and a bunch of other subdisciplines and completely unheard of in my part of the stack. This context is largely ignored when people recommend literally every junior person in the thread start one regardless if they fall into those camps. It's not required for a huge chunk of programming jobs and pushing it like it's required is adding stress where people don't need it.UnfurledSails posted:I know I'm not a moron, but that sense of "what the hell am I doing here?" is always there.
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Aug 6, 2013 19:36
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Plorkyeran posted:So far I have seen exactly zero people suggest that is it impossible to get a job without an interesting github profile, so I am somewhat confused as to why people keep feeling the need to refute that idea. There are places out there that say 'link us to your github' when advertising jobs.
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Aug 6, 2013 20:10
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fritz posted:There are places out there that say 'link us to your github' when advertising jobs. "Well, when I was in college I was working 2 jobs, and class full time, so I had little time for pet projects. Since graduation I've been working full time and as much as I love to code, after staring code for 8 hours per day my eyes feel like they're going to explode." is usually my go-to response when the topic of github/projects comes up. I think it's a good answer instead of just saying "I don't have one" 
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Aug 6, 2013 20:13
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I'm not very familiar with programming jobs, but reading through the thread I thought this advice would still apply even though it comes more from the embedded systems / engineering world. Someone you want to work for should care a lot more about how well you solve new problems, rather than what specific technologies you already know. Solving problems almost never starts with knowing the answer. Not knowing the answer to a question is perfectly fine. Help show them how you'll act when you're hired and they come to you with something. Explain what steps you'd take first, second, and third to work towards finding a solution. I have heard bad interviewers talk about bad interviews they've given, where the IDIOT job candidate couldn't answer his ridiculous stumper question immediately with the correct answer. Learn to spot these people..
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Aug 6, 2013 20:24
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isr posted:I have heard bad interviewers talk about bad interviews they've given, where the IDIOT job candidate couldn't answer his ridiculous stumper question immediately with the correct answer. Learn to spot these people.. I learned from tef years ago never to take a job where any interviewer asks me a trick question / brain teaser. I am glad to report all three companies I have worked for so far did not. That said, if you are doing contractor work, you better know everything I am hiring you for on day one. I don't want to end up pushing your prototype to production.
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Aug 6, 2013 22:28
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fritz posted:There are places out there that say 'link us to your github' when advertising jobs. That is JUST to weed out people who don't love what they do for a living. LITERALLY. We do similar things in our job description. We want to work with people who are absolutely passionate about technology and want technology to improve people's lives and make it better. Most technology actually makes our lives worse.
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Aug 6, 2013 22:30
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Is it worth sticking programs I've made (not copied) as part of my python course onto GitHub, or is it naive. For example, a game of guess my number where the program guesses a number you have in mind based on 'higher' and 'lower' input.
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Aug 6, 2013 22:53
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Ask permission from the course instructor first. In case if that instructor wishes to refuse that challenge/homework/whatever for future courses.
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Aug 6, 2013 23:13
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Z-Bo posted:I learned from tef years ago never to take a job where any interviewer asks me a trick question / brain teaser. The only time I can recall someone using a trick question on me was a first level phone screen where they asked "what's the using keyword for in C#?" The "trick" is that there are two uses of it, and I immediately caught it but me catching it was enough for him to basically skip some other follow on questions. While it was a bit rudimentary and weird to ask that question I don't begrudge him for it. However I was also doing a lot more java projects at the time and they were a strictly .NET shop so it could have been just a By and large I do definitely think trick/trap questions are an alarm and should actively discourage candidates.
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Aug 6, 2013 23:16
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Z-Bo posted:That is JUST to weed out people who don't love what they do for a living. What a crude, ineffective filter. You know you can actually ask people and listen to their response? This isn't a protected area like martial status. I love my work. I've shipped millions of units and I'm drat proud of them. But, guess I didn't sign up for the right social network so none of that counts. Do you also check their Twitter and Facebook to see if they're up to snuff?
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Aug 7, 2013 00:32
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JawnV6 posted:I love my work. I've shipped millions of units and I'm drat proud of them. But, guess I didn't sign up for the right social network so none of that counts. Do you also check their Twitter and Facebook to see if they're up to snuff? On that note, how common are background checks when applying to places?
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Aug 7, 2013 00:34
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Tres Burritos posted:On that note, how common are background checks when applying to places? They should not be at all common. And is it unusual to not have a GitHub account in 2013? It sort of defeats the purpose to have a centralized DVCS host to me. Especially one that takes down repositories all willy nilly because they care about the DMCA for some reason. And is down all the time. And not everybody uses or likes git. xtal fucked around with this message at 01:12 on Aug 7, 2013 |
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Aug 7, 2013 00:57
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Tres Burritos posted:On that note, how common are background checks when applying to places? before applying? Nonexistant. Once you have the job? It really depends on how big the place is.
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Aug 7, 2013 01:01
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Plorkyeran posted:So far I have seen exactly zero people suggest that is it impossible to get a job without an interesting github profile, so I am somewhat confused as to why people keep feeling the need to refute that idea. This is why: Z-Bo posted:That is JUST to weed out people who don't love what they do for a living. Sufficiently clear?
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Aug 7, 2013 01:48
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Z-Bo posted:That is JUST to weed out people who don't love what they do for a living.
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Aug 7, 2013 01:57
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Z-Bo posted:That is JUST to weed out people who don't love what they do for a living. Z-Bo posted:BOSTON GOONS: sounds cool
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Aug 7, 2013 02:02
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We will probably throw out and replace all our existing code a year from now anyway. It's just how we do things, we keep iterating and improving. how!!'s startup spotted
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Aug 7, 2013 02:11
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FamDav posted:before applying? Nonexistant. See, I've just had another potential employer have me fill out the background check stuff at the in person interview. They're like a security consulting business though so I guess it's kind of(?) understandable.
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Aug 7, 2013 02:14
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Tres Burritos posted:See, I've just had another potential employer have me fill out the background check stuff at the in person interview. They're like a security consulting business though so I guess it's kind of(?) understandable. Absolutely, given that so much of security consulting takes place in the financial industry and there is much temptation to do evil with the gaping vulnerabilities you will discover.
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Aug 7, 2013 02:19
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bonds0097 posted:Absolutely, given that so much of security consulting takes place in the financial industry and there is much temptation to do evil with the gaping vulnerabilities you will discover. poo poo now that you mention it, the other one did software for banks. So there you go.
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Aug 7, 2013 02:24
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bonds0097 posted:Absolutely, given that so much of security consulting takes place in the financial industry and there is much temptation to do evil with the gaping vulnerabilities you will discover. Lots of security consulting agencies pick up government work as well, so there's a bunch of required paperwork and checks for any person who goes near those systems.
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Aug 7, 2013 02:25
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I work at a consulting place and they made me do a full background check with a drug test. They need to make sure they don't look like idiots in front of clients should something happen. Not only did I have to take it, but I had to go to their company-approved location in the ghetto and it was pretty loving scary. I also pissed on myself (unrelated to the scary people).
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Aug 7, 2013 02:27
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1) I've worked with people before who only do programming to pay the bills. It is absolutely awful. 2) My company does not ask for a GitHub account. The job ad clearly targets people who like a lot of autonomy and like doing a bit of everything, and love what they do, and don't like micro management to interfere with what they love doing!! 3) Our interview process is ridiculously laid back and easy, but many people fail it, anyway. We simply ask people to rate themselves from 1 to 10 in various areas and then ask them a beginner question nobody should miss if they know anything at all. You would be surprised how many people flunk out on simple questions, and how badly they do flunk out. Really, if you are invited in for an interview, you better pass such an easy test. The main goal of the interview is to see if you are a good fit for our culture, not if you are a rock star programmer. We find that people who have a firm understanding of the basics generally pick up the hard stuff or already know it, so there is no point asking it. ************ SEPARATELY... ************ 1) A lot of young programmers over-think things. My past self included: I wish I could find the post on here where the user "fasteddie", a self-proclaimed network engineering know-it-all great programmer from Google, told me I was a terrible programmer and should just give up and find something else to do with my life (I think I am paraphrasing what he said nicer than what he actually said) This was 8 years ago, right here on Something Awful. It was pretty upsetting and shocking someone could be such a dick, and while not doubting myself, wondered if I would encounter dickheads like him in the real world. 2) A lot of geniuses have low self-esteem. Do any of you know how many student suicides there are at Caltech each year? Caltech is THE smartest school on the planet. Yet kids constantly feel inferior and/or unprepared/afraid for what's ahead. I am no social scientist, but it looks like the Dunning-Kruger Effect writ large: smart people suffer from errors about others, while dumb people suffer from errors about themselves. 3) I try to emphasize independence and confidence in young people, get them to believe in themselves and realize their self-worth. 4) I was depressed/suicidal in high school, so I can certainly relate to all kinds of self-image issues. 5) At my job, I am currently mentoring a high school drop-out. He has clinical depression, and I worry about him each day. The kid doesn't realize how talented and special he is, and he is extremely shy and suffers from confidence issues among other things. He hasn't shown up to work 5 straight days, because he is so depressed he can't get out of bed. Regarding bringing something unique to the table as a person, I have developed into a programmer who does remains calm in times of chaos, and someone who has a remarkable breadth of software engineering knowledge.
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Aug 7, 2013 02:39
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Z-Bo posted:You would be surprised how many people flunk out on simple questions, and how badly they do flunk out. I am consistently amazed at the responses we get to simple programming puzzles. Lots of people can talk their way past a phone interview but completely fail at Fizz Buzz, the first puzzle we give. For those who don't know, Fizz Buzz is this: Print the numbers from 1 to 100, each on their own line However: For multiples of 3, instead print "Fizz" For multiples of 5, instead print "Buzz" For multiples of both 3 and 5, instead print "FizzBuzz" This simple puzzle disqualifies an alarmingly large amount of people.
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Aug 7, 2013 03:02
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I've never actually seen anyone use FizzBuzz in an interview, because it's been talked about so many times I just naturally assumed it's the one interview programming question literally everyone knows a proper solution for. edit: Also this is the best fizzbuzz answer (by another goon): https://gist.github.com/natw/4079502
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Aug 7, 2013 03:07
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Z-Bo posted:I've worked with people before who only do programming to pay the bills. Gazpacho fucked around with this message at 03:38 on Aug 7, 2013 |
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Aug 7, 2013 03:30
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astr0man posted:I've never actually seen anyone use FizzBuzz in an interview, because it's been talked about so many times I just naturally assumed it's the one interview programming question literally everyone knows a proper solution for. I thought the same thing. I asked my interviewers why the chose to use it, and they said that it's extremely effective at weeding out the people who are trying to flub their way into a high paying job. If you don't know or can't figure out Fizz Buzz, you really aren't worth the time of the rest of the interview.
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Aug 7, 2013 03:32
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wolffenstein posted:Ask permission from the course instructor first. In case if that instructor wishes to refuse that challenge/homework/whatever for future courses.
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Aug 7, 2013 03:34
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Z-Bo posted:1) I've worked with people before who only do programming to pay the bills. It is absolutely awful.
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Aug 7, 2013 03:37
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tk posted:This is some bullshit right here. How so? In my experience, it is true in any industry that it sucks to work with or for people who are just there for a paycheck and have no passion for the work.
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Aug 7, 2013 03:41
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Gazpacho posted:That's not what I said and it's not the only category you're screening out if and when you require a github link. You're screening out anyone who sells what they make, regardless of what bills they have. Did you bother to read the next line where it says we don't require a GitHub link? I am simply explaining WHY companies would want someone with open source contributions. It helps create and enforce a culture. Please don't derail the thread over this.
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Aug 7, 2013 03:50
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bonds0097 posted:How so? In my experience, it is true in any industry that it sucks to work with or for people who are just there for a paycheck and have no passion for the work. Z-Bo, you said that use the github link field to weed people out and I took you at your word. I don't have anything to add.
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Aug 7, 2013 03:50
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Gazpacho posted:Having open-sores contributions is a poor litmus test for passion, as if bona fide interest in software development suddenly bloomed into existence when Eric Raymond published his essay. Gonna have to echo this. The people I work with absolutely love what they do, but of the other 8 people only one has a GitHub profile - and even that one is pretty sparse,
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Aug 7, 2013 03:55
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I know quite a few people who are love their work, and give 200% at the office. They learn and improve themselves on the job, they lead projects to help improve things on their team, and junior developers look up to them as mentors. They then come home and want nothing to do with programming, they want to enjoy their family, relax, and recharge for the next day at the job. Are they just "in it for the paycheck?"
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Aug 7, 2013 04:01
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How would anyone just be into programming for money anyway? What a lovely road to go down just for the money. Work in business or something where you can bullshit your way to the top. This poo poo can get pretty stressful if you don't like it.
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Aug 7, 2013 04:05
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I recently finished a 2 year diploma program focused on programming mostly, and I'm trying to go over some practice exercises. It took me about a day to do make a simple recursive string matching tool(with any number of wildcards), and a recursive 'print all permutations of a string'. Then it took me pretty much all day today to make very little progress on a minimax recursive tic tac toe AI, and even less progress on an A* grid search tool. The reason why I'm doing these exercises is that I've been told by people who have conducted many interviews that these are simple warm up programming questions for serious interviews. My question: How dumb am I? I feel like I'm struggling with really really simple concepts, and should maybe either take another (remedial) programming class, or look to a different career path. I'm just incredibly frustrated by my lack of progress, and I'd like to have somebody unbiased towards me just tell me straight up if I'm wasting my time.
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Aug 7, 2013 04:06
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kitten smoothie posted:I know quite a few people who are love their work, and give 200% at the office. They learn and improve themselves on the job, they lead projects to help improve things on their team, and junior developers look up to them as mentors. Where do you think up such difficult questions?
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Aug 7, 2013 04:08
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Sitting Bull posted:My question: How dumb am I? I feel like I'm struggling with really really simple concepts, and should maybe either take another (remedial) programming class, or look to a different career path. I'm just incredibly frustrated by my lack of progress, and I'd like to have somebody unbiased towards me just tell me straight up if I'm wasting my time. It depends on the interview and the job. If you're trying to get a senior dev position at Big Company X, then those kinds of questions are probably par for the course. There are, however, a ton of places that might just hire you on the spot if you tell them you're writing a recursive string matcher in your spare time. A blindingly large amount of (decent-paying) jobs out there are in web dev, and that's often as difficult as inserting [Form Element A] into [Database Slot B].
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Aug 7, 2013 04:12
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kitten smoothie posted:I know quite a few people who are love their work, and give 200% at the office. They learn and improve themselves on the job, they lead projects to help improve things on their team, and junior developers look up to them as mentors. I don't think anyone has equated "passionate about their work" with "takes their work home with them"; that's a conflation you came up with all on your own. Not that you're actually asking a question. Thanks for the snark I suppose.
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Aug 7, 2013 04:16
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