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Jedit posted:They should have called that song "If You Can't Beat The Fascists, Join Them". As opposed to meekly and ineffectually grumbling and protesting? If the left was perceived to still have any remaining teeth we wouldn't be in the world of poo poo we are today.
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# ? Aug 10, 2013 13:25 |
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# ? May 23, 2024 15:28 |
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MeLKoR posted:
First, Machiavelli was a republican. Second, how did this whole 'supporting the usurping lord' thing work out for the people? It's not like this was a vehicle for actual change, it was still supporting the status quo-- it was supporting the entire political system of "these nobles are in charge".
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# ? Aug 10, 2013 13:29 |
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MeLKoR posted:As opposed to meekly and ineffectually grumbling and protesting? If the left was perceived to still have any remaining teeth we wouldn't be in the world of poo poo we are today. Seriously. You want effective antifascist propaganda? Fascists getting chased out of their meetings and beaten up in the streets is a hard counter to their efforts to pretend that they are strong and forceful and "manly".
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# ? Aug 10, 2013 13:44 |
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MeLKoR posted:As opposed to meekly and ineffectually grumbling and protesting? If the left was perceived to still have any remaining teeth we wouldn't be in the world of poo poo we are today. No, if racist elements weren't taking advantage of social and economic turmoil we wouldn't be in the poo poo we're in. "Fighting" fascism by sending out your own squads of skinheaded boot boys isn't going to fix it, it's just going to put violent scum on both sides. And at that point we are lost, because there will be nobody fighting fascism any more - just a difference of opinion in who should receive the brutal beating in order to "preserve our unity".
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# ? Aug 10, 2013 13:48 |
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Jedit posted:No, if racist elements weren't taking advantage of social and economic turmoil we wouldn't be in the poo poo we're in. "Fighting" fascism by sending out your own squads of skinheaded boot boys isn't going to fix it, it's just going to put violent scum on both sides. And at that point we are lost, because there will be nobody fighting fascism any more - just a difference of opinion in who should receive the brutal beating in order to "preserve our unity". So, in your opinion the battle of Cable Street was wrong then?
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# ? Aug 10, 2013 13:49 |
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Obdicut posted:First, Machiavelli was a republican. Does it matter that Machiavelli was a republican? Did I say otherwise? Does it make any difference? What part of the argument works only if for nobility? If you have a ruling family/class that holds all the cards it makes no difference if they straight out adopt feudal titles or not, the end product is the same and the ruling families in the Italian city states demanded and enjoined no less personal fealty than open aristocracies. A republican Machiavelli might have been but he certainly was no democrat. quote:Second, how did this whole 'supporting the usurping lord' thing work out for the people? It's not like this was a vehicle for actual change, it was still supporting the status quo-- it was supporting the entire political system of "these nobles are in charge". Some times it worked for the best with the incoming foreign monarch/dynasty really being better than the deposed ones but more often than not it did nothing at all to improve things, only switched one set of oppressors by another. That was when that ruler lost the support of the people and got his rear end handed over to him. My point is that straight out condemning "collaboration with a foreign power" regardless of anything else is a recent development. There are fuckloads of historical examples of people supporting foreign powers to come and replace the ruling class that was oppressing them. "Collaboration with a foreign power" doesn't make you bad per se, you're bad if the reasons/ideology that led you to support that foreign power is evil. "Treason" itself is meaningless when the loyalty you are supposed to keep is for people loving you over. If you are getting the short end of the stick you don't owe allegiance to "the nation" aka the ruling class. MeLKoR fucked around with this message at 14:01 on Aug 10, 2013 |
# ? Aug 10, 2013 13:50 |
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Czech Republic / Slovakia / Hungary Forced sterilization of Romani women – a persisting human rights violation quote:Between 1971 and 1991 in Czechoslovakia, now Czech Republic and Slovakia, the “reduction of the Roma population” through surgical sterilization, performed without the knowledge of the women themselves, was a widespread governmental practice. The sterilization would be performed on Romani women without their knowledge during Caesarean sections or abortions. Some of the victims claim that they were made to sign documents without understanding their content. By signing these documents, they involuntarily authorized the hospital to sterilize them. In exchange, they sometimes were offered financial compensation or material benefits like furniture from Social Services – though it was not explicitly stated what this compensation was for. The justification for sterilization practices according to the stakeholders was “high, unhealthy” reproduction. Romania The Extreme Right in Contemporary Romania Pretty well put together 16 page report. If you've got the time and inclination to learn more about the far right in Romania, give this a look. quote:Under the leadership of Becali, the ideology of the party has come close to that of the inter-war fascist legionary movement with an added twist of opportunism, demagogy and gutter talk. In the past, Becali has appropriated symbols and slogans of the Iron Guard, and the party slogan currently displayed on its official website - »Serving the Cross and the Romanian Nation!« – reflects this fusion of conservative Christian Orthodoxy and mythologised nationalism. In terms of structure, the PNG-CD resembles the PRM inasmuch as it is largely centred on its leader. Thus, what the party lacks in programme is made up for by Becali’s insulting language, homophobia and intolerance. So far he has been fined several times by the National Council for Combating Discrimination for making discriminatory statements against women, the Roma and other ethnic minorities, and he is well known for his homophobic statements. At one point he stated that he would never hire gay players in his football team and that »homosexuals are protected by Satan« (ProTV, 2012) quote:The inclusion of the Romanian Orthodox Church (BOR) in a study of the extreme right in Romania is motivated by the role it has played in informing and influencing the extreme right discourse in Romania. The BOR has a long history of articulating and/or supporting an ethnically based conception of the nation. Over time, the BOR ideological position has intersected (directly or implicitly) with that of other extremist political groups. In inter-war Romania, the collaboration between the Iron Guard and the Orthodox Church was extensive, with a large number of priests sympathising with the Iron Guard and even running in elections for the »Everything for the Country« Party (Iordachi, 2004: 35). Currently, the attitude of the BOR can be summarised – as Andreescu (2004:178) points out – in terms of four characteristics: its exclusivist nationalist definition of the Romanian state (equating the Romanian state with the Romanian nation and the Romanian nation with the Christian Orthodox faith); its authoritarian, fundamentalist tendency to subordinate the notion of rule of law to that of divine right; the use of aggressive instruments to protect its position; and its ability to mobilise people and resources to achieve its aims. ............................ Jedit posted:They should have called that song "If You Can't Beat The Fascists, Join Them". Seriously? Wow, what a zinger. Yeah totally, bashing the fash makes you *gasp* a fash! Oh the irony! Pesmerga posted:So, in your opinion the battle of Cable Street was wrong then?
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# ? Aug 10, 2013 13:51 |
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Jedit posted:No, if racist elements weren't taking advantage of social and economic turmoil we wouldn't be in the poo poo we're in. "Fighting" fascism by sending out your own squads of skinheaded boot boys isn't going to fix it, it's just going to put violent scum on both sides. And at that point we are lost, because there will be nobody fighting fascism any more - just a difference of opinion in who should receive the brutal beating in order to "preserve our unity". Is... is this an argument that all political violence is fascism? You understand that literally every political theory or position other than a handful of pacifist theories with virtually no actual real-world representation believes in using violence to achieve its ends, right?
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# ? Aug 10, 2013 13:51 |
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Jedit posted:No, if racist elements weren't taking advantage of social and economic turmoil we wouldn't be in the poo poo we're in. "Fighting" fascism by sending out your own squads of skinheaded boot boys isn't going to fix it, it's just going to put violent scum on both sides. And at that point we are lost, because there will be nobody fighting fascism any more - just a difference of opinion in who should receive the brutal beating in order to "preserve our unity". That isn't to say that the USSR was good, it just means that while there was a real threat of a foreign backed revolution the ruling class was kept in check. Nowadays? Hahaha, what are you going to do prole? Not eat the bread I'm gracefully offering you?
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# ? Aug 10, 2013 13:57 |
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From forever back, but there's a misconception that I feel I should correct. The NPD is a laughing stock. I think they got like two seats in Parliament and can't do poo poo there. They don't even have election posters up right now. Compared to the Golden Dawn or BNP or whatever? loving amateurs. No, seriously, Germany's got far-right thugs, but it's in no danger of them getting any further into government or into any sort of power. Someone will Godwin them before long and they'll slink off. The rest of Europe and the former USSR have forgotten (or seem to have forgotten), but Germany remembers. I'm pretty sure most fascist marches are met with antifa marches. I'd be joining antifa organisations if I could loving walk, frankly, pacifism be damned. The difference between fascists and me is that I'm knocking in heads that could go on to outlaw me and mine, while I don't give a poo poo who the fascists gently caress, who they marry, who they descend from, where they're from or what language they speak and will knock in the head of anyone who dares suggest those things matter and make our hypothetical fascist a danger to society. EDIT: the Battle of Cable Street was amazing and inspirational. weavernaut fucked around with this message at 14:12 on Aug 10, 2013 |
# ? Aug 10, 2013 14:08 |
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Russia thegailygrind is a good source on what's happening in Russia, as they seem to be keeping a close eye. The following articles aren't like the ones in the OP, but the second one might qualify as due to pictures. Russian LGBT Activist Attacked By Angry Mob of Russian Military Paratroopers in St. Petersburg (Video) quote:While holding a one-man protest against LGBT rights violations in Russia, activist Krill Kalugin was attacked by an angry mob of Russian military paratroopers in St. Petersburg Friday, August 2. The Russian paratroopers were celebrating Russia’s Paratroopers Day, an annual military pride celebration which according to the Animal New York traditionally involves groups of soldiers spilling into public square for merriment, flag waving, wallowing in public fountains and miscellaneous public drunkenness. In a video captured by PaperPaper.ru, a young man is surrounded by a mob of angry paratroopers who begin attacking him and hurling profanity laden questions at the young man. “What the gently caress were you thinking, showing up at Palace Square, human being?” yells the groups leader. Emphasis mine. Yes, the cops show up to arrest the activist that was getting beat-up, not the paratroopers. Pavel Petel Says He’s Scared Living In Russia: ‘People Threaten Me, Sometimes They Attack’ (slightly pictures) quote:You may recognize Pavel Petel as an openly gay model-activist, and gender-bending muscle stud originally from the Ukraine, but currently living in Russia. With Russia’s recent passage of anti-gay laws basically forbidding the use of the word gay or any so-called homosexual ‘propaganda of nontraditional sexual relations,’ LGBT entertainment blog The Back Building interviewed Petel to see how he was coping and whether he was planning on leaving Russia.
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# ? Aug 10, 2013 14:16 |
weavernaut posted:From forever back, but there's a misconception that I feel I should correct. Two seats in parliament is two more than the BNP have ever had.
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# ? Aug 10, 2013 14:26 |
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They're still a laughing stock. Just a better-organised one than the BNP? No, seriously, I've heard no news of right-wing violence in Germany, especially not on the scale of Hungary, Greece, Russia et al, so posting photos of the NDP to prove me wrong when I say that Germany is very much unlikely to go fascist is idiotic. Germany is stable and the last time it was unstable was directly thanks to the Nazis. They're not keen on repeating the experience.
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# ? Aug 10, 2013 14:31 |
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weavernaut posted:They're still a laughing stock. Just a better-organised one than the BNP? Ever hear of the Bosphorous killings? Today's Zaman posted:Cover-up over neo-Nazi murders in Germany Of course, given the fact that it's a Turkish newspaper, the focus is predominantly on the impact on Turkish citizens and the Turkish government response. But what about the 'Nazi towns' in the east? http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/05/20/far-right-extremists-in-east-germany-quietly-building-a-town-for-neo-nazis/ quote:Far-right extremists in eastern Germany quietly building a town for neo-Nazis Germany is in no way immune from what's happening in the rest of Europe. Edit: and Angela Merkel and the ruling party are in no way friends to LGBT people. http://www.advocate.com/politics/marriage-equality/2012/12/05/german-chancellor-angela-merkel-says-no-equality-gay-couples Advocate.com posted:Angela Merkel Says No to Repairing Inequality Pesmerga fucked around with this message at 14:43 on Aug 10, 2013 |
# ? Aug 10, 2013 14:40 |
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weavernaut posted:They're still a laughing stock. Just a better-organised one than the BNP? Right. Maybe it's a bit premature to start back-patting the German yet, though? Wait until Germany is experiencing over 25% unemployment in general and over 50% youth unemployment in particular and then we can tell if their memory remains as fresh. Why would the german people be sliding into fascism? Things are still working out comparatively well for them as it is. When there is no more to squeeze from the periphery and their masters turn on them, then we shall see if that vaunted opposition to non-democratic "solutions" remains or is washed away in the torrent of anger and impotent liberal tears.
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# ? Aug 10, 2013 14:49 |
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MeLKoR posted:Right. Maybe it's a bit premature to start back-patting the German yet, though? Wait until Germany is experiencing over 25% unemployment in general and over 50% youth unemployment in particular and then we can tell if their memory remains as fresh. Actually, there's substantial evidence to suggest that the eastern and more deprived parts of Germany are slipping into fascism. Not at the level of state officials (at least, not yet), but as a growing movement, it's there. And just like with Golden Dawn, the same people who dismissed them as being a bunch of rag-tag morons years ago will be asking how this could have possibly happened. There are numerous stories here: - http://www.spiegel.de/international/topic/right_wing_extremism/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bMw_2nMzqE - this is also worth watching.
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# ? Aug 10, 2013 14:54 |
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Well, poo poo. I was genuinely unaware of any of that, because I'm in Western Germany. I withdraw my previous comments.
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# ? Aug 10, 2013 14:59 |
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There is a fair point that Western Germany is an economic bubble supplied by their advantages in the Europe zone, basically the Western Germans have exported their fascism to the south and east. In addition, an argument can be made, East Germany is still "strange" because transfer payments never fully made up for the collapse of the East German social system.
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# ? Aug 10, 2013 16:38 |
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Can someone please post a summary of what is happening in Hungary? (I have family there, would like to know what exactly is going on)
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# ? Aug 10, 2013 16:58 |
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I live in very rural sweden and i have been beat up more than once by members of the local nazi party for being somewhat left ^ these dudes (shoutout to mullet man in the middle keeping it real) welp thats my story of fascism in europe hope u like
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# ? Aug 10, 2013 16:59 |
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Abrasive Obelisk posted:Can someone please post a summary of what is happening in Hungary? (I have family there, would like to know what exactly is going on) If I remember correctly and it hasn't already been posted aljazeera did a decent minidoc on the subject here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7ow9qa8whU&feature=youtube_gdata_player
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# ? Aug 10, 2013 17:18 |
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Pesmerga posted:I always like to see people quoting Foucault. But how does this factor into the aggressive push for business that fascism represents? I'd say in this respect, commodity is still fetishised, it's just a different type. That resistance against certain types of commodities gets co-opted into the accepted networks of power as an exercise of resistance to be quashed, and instead, new commodities that determine worth become important, be they flags, uniforms, and other symbols of power. It's also possible to argue that it's not the commodities that are the source of contention, but who possesses them/prevents them from being possessed by the 'right' people. I'd like to be careful with the word 'commodity' here. By commodity I specifically mean the object alienated for the purpose exchange in a capitalist market that produces the self-organization of the Invisible Hand of Value. The Fascists certainly have fetishes, but commodities are not among them. The specific appeal of Fascism is to break the fetishism of commodities and replace it with fetishism of race/nation/so on. The important thing about a fetish is not that the fetish is held in high regard, it is that it creates a 'social vortex' around itself that organizes society according to it's logic. So the fascist may like the hierarchical masculinist competition of business, but ultimately the logic of commodity exchange can not be the 'top dog' so to say. It has to be that business gets dragged along for the glory of the nation. It cannot be accepted that the nation is dragged along for the glory of the market. I found that book I was thinking of. I think a cool example of the fascist desire to replace the logic of the market with another sort of logic is expressed by this quote taken from some sort of Nazi townhall meeting. quote:We don't want lower grain prices. We don't want higher grain prices. We want National Socialist grain prices. Ocean Book fucked around with this message at 17:40 on Aug 10, 2013 |
# ? Aug 10, 2013 17:36 |
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^^ If you read Neumann's Behemoth it goes into exhaustive detail about that kind of thing, and specifically Nazism's relationship to markets and capitalist ideology. Nazi ideologues said very contradictory things to different audiences at different time periods, but their occasional superficial rebuttal of market relations never developed into anything systemic. bitterandtwisted posted:Two seats in parliament is two more than the BNP have ever had. The BNP got representation at the European Parliament, which puts them squarely in front of the NPD (which only ever had minor state-level representation). Zohar fucked around with this message at 17:52 on Aug 10, 2013 |
# ? Aug 10, 2013 17:50 |
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Ardennes posted:Yeah, I have to really question about the hygiene stuff as well, why does it need to be a priority at all? I guess it is just some culturally American thing to think all leftists=hippies, and hippies=dirty and people don't like dirty hippies. I wonder if it is sort of a result of Obama's style of conservative liberalism, that American progressivism has turned so far right, the emphasis is more on presenting a crisp attractive image than any actual substance. A political party is only as good as its women are hot.
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# ? Aug 10, 2013 18:19 |
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Pesmerga posted:So, in your opinion the battle of Cable Street was wrong then? It was right that the people of Cable Street stood against the fascists. It was wrong for them to make it a battle. When you're a hundred thousand strong, you don't need to fight to stop 3000 fascists coming through. You just stand there and say they will not. If there's violence, you let someone else start it. The Cable Street protesters chose to start the fight; in the process they surrendered the moral high ground. They also did a lot to prove that Mosley was right - there the BUF were, marching peacefully and legally, when the Jews roused the rabble against them and attacked the police for trying to maintain law and order (at least, that's how they span it). In the wake of the Battle there was a rise in anti-semitism that didn't die down until Hitler declared war. It's been said that the Battle also led to the Public Order Act (1936) prohibiting political marches in uniform and requiring political groups to have government permission to march, both of which shut down the blackshirts nicely. The Battle wasn't the reason for that bill, though, it was the excuse. It's obvious if you look at it that the government didn't want Mosley to march but saw no way to prevent it. That's why the Act punished the BUF but did nothing to affect the Cable Street protesters. But if the Act was the response to the BUF being attacked then logically, any disruption at Cable Street would have led to an outcome for the Mosleyites that was the same or worse.
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# ? Aug 10, 2013 18:57 |
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E-Tank posted:Well, I've heard that basically every first grade (or thereabouts) gets sent off on a field trip where they learn what Fascism ended up causing, namely some of the concentration camps, and it's pretty much beat into their skulls that Fascism = = Baaaaaad. So I can see why Germany has gently caress all in terms of fascist nutjobs running around, if they weren't dissuaded from it as kids, the government cracked down on anyone showing signs. I'm glad you're safe though! Don't the cops and legal system in Germany gleefully and energetically beat down any Neo-Nazi movements they can find as well?
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# ? Aug 10, 2013 19:04 |
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-Troika- posted:Don't the cops and legal system in Germany gleefully and energetically beat down any Neo-Nazi movements they can find as well? Hell, from what I heard on my study abroad orientation for FU-Berlin, it's literally illegal to do the Heil Hitler salute (and it's very likely to get you beaten up as well as thrown in jail).
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# ? Aug 10, 2013 19:14 |
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Jedit posted:It was right that the people of Cable Street stood against the fascists. It was wrong for them to make it a battle. When you're a hundred thousand strong, you don't need to fight to stop 3000 fascists coming through. You just stand there and say they will not. If there's violence, you let someone else start it. The Cable Street protesters chose to start the fight; in the process they surrendered the moral high ground. They also did a lot to prove that Mosley was right - there the BUF were, marching peacefully and legally, when the Jews roused the rabble against them and attacked the police for trying to maintain law and order (at least, that's how they span it). In the wake of the Battle there was a rise in anti-semitism that didn't die down until Hitler declared war. Truly it's the ~Moral High Ground~ that's important here and not, you know, actually stopping the fash. Also the fash don't "march peacefully" by definition. Fascism is based on politicl violence, and even if they're not engaging in violence at the moment, they're preparing to engage in violence at a later date. Fascist marches are all about building unity within the movement and demonstrating their power so that they can go out and murder the undesirables later.
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# ? Aug 10, 2013 19:16 |
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Jedit posted:The Cable Street protesters chose to start the fight; in the process they surrendered the moral high ground. Say it ain't so, anything but that! quote:They also did a lot to prove that Mosley was right Jesus loving Christ. You're literally spinning this into a moral victory for Mosley and the black-shirts, I can't loving believe it...
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# ? Aug 10, 2013 19:25 |
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Cerebral Bore posted:Truly it's the ~Moral High Ground~ that's important here and not, you know, actually stopping the fash. The ~Moral High Ground~ AKA ~Looking Like The Good Guys~ actually is important in winning public support. As was mentioned earlier, starting the violence against fascist groups feeds directly into fascist narratives and makes them stronger for when the violence toward undesirables actually happens. Occasional violent incidents against low-level members don't stop fascists, but convincing people to oppose fascists stops fascists. There's a difference between self-defense/defense of people in danger (important and useful) and doing things that allow fascist groups to paint themselves as victims/oppressed (harmful in the long run).
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# ? Aug 10, 2013 19:30 |
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ThirdPartyView posted:How strong is the National Front in France as a political party/influence? Politically they don't get much representation nationally thanks to the parliamentary system being a two round system per seats, but they are gaining influence and their rhetoric is depressingly common. The mainstream right is trying to ape them in every way possible, by being anti immigrants, anti Muslims, anti gay, (they are actually more anti gay than the FN, at least they care about it a lot more) and the mainstream left doesn't want to repeal and didn't oppose some of the anti Muslim laws (veil bans in schools and full veil bans) and also deport Romas like the right did, which the FN advocates (while blaming the PS and UMP for letting Romas in the country).
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# ? Aug 10, 2013 19:53 |
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Thanks for the CIA psyops pacifist/cowardice/apathy disinformation, Jedit.Civilized Fishbot posted:The ~Moral High Ground~ AKA ~Looking Like The Good Guys~ actually is important in winning public support. As was mentioned earlier, starting the violence against fascist groups feeds directly into fascist narratives and makes them stronger for when the violence toward undesirables actually happens. Occasional violent incidents against low-level members don't stop fascists, but convincing people to oppose fascists stops fascists. There's a difference between self-defense/defense of people in danger (important and useful) and doing things that allow fascist groups to paint themselves as victims/oppressed (harmful in the long run). Your plan is to look good on corporate media, so as to... win support... from the... public... while they consume political infotainment?
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# ? Aug 10, 2013 20:00 |
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Kurtofan posted:Politically they don't get much representation nationally thanks to the parliamentary system being a two round system per seats, but they are gaining influence and their rhetoric is depressingly common. A poll from May had Le Pen leading Hollande by 4% (latest on wikipedia), 24% of the country is substantial even if they haven't turned that support into seats because of France's voting system. Yeah, there really isn't anywhere in Europe that hasn't been hit by it, even Norway is starting to move in that direction.
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# ? Aug 10, 2013 20:03 |
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Xipe Totec posted:Thanks for the CIA psyops pacifist/cowardice/apathy disinformation, Jedit. It's a good point that the media can basically distort any political event/response to make a particular political group look like the enemy. However, I think that such a capability just makes it easier for a single act of political violence to have drastic deleterious consequences for anti-fascist groups, which seems like it would dwarf any positive gains to be gotten out of beating up a few fascist party supporters.
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# ? Aug 10, 2013 20:04 |
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It's returned and it's advancing faster than anyone's worst nightmares. It's important to realise that a particular country's outlying factions are not the ones to watch. The overt racist and thugs are discredited and disliked by the upper middle classes which limits their power. For now. Instead pay attention to the narrative of a countries media. In the UK we've had a string of "documentaries" villainising the poor and the problem has slowly creeped its way towards attacking the disabled. A doctor got in a tabloid newspaper complaining that Stephen Hawking works so disabled people should not get benefits. There was leaked documents from the government of a canceled workfair (work for access to benefits, slavery by another name) project that would "house" disabled people in "centers" where they could be "productive". It was a plan for bringing back the workhouse and this time for disabled people. In the UK the media is either supporting the government or ignoring issues it feels it cannot put a positive spin on. It has nothing negative to say which is indicative of the unfolding agenda. The UK IS swerving right, HARD. It's not doing it with rousing speeches of racial superiority. It's not doing it by overtly attacking a race or creed. It's doing it by normalising bigoted behaviour and thoughts. It's now ok to HATE someone because they're poor: They probably deserve it and no doubt scrounge from the government. It's ok to HATE immigrants: They've been ripping the country off for years and maybe that's why we ran out of money!? It's ok to LAUGH at the disabled: Political correctness has gone mad and they've got it easy. The message being spun constantly is "we have no money and we must work our way out of debt, if you can't work get under the loving bus". In truth the UK is hosed until they reverse austerity just like the rest of Europe. Austerity is what's breeding fascism and, if I may be slightly tinfoil, there is no way the governments of European countries don't know this. They're essentially emulating 1930's Germany and they know it. That they don't care indicates to me that they support a general rightward direction in peoples thinking. They probably don't want a full on fascist uprising but by that point it will be too late. People like David Cameron are not smart. They possess low cunning and opportunists natures but it would not surprise me at all if they think they can continue to poke the dragon.
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# ? Aug 10, 2013 20:29 |
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Is the Battle of Cable Street really that good of an example? I mean, it's not like Germany and Italy were lacking in violent conflicts between rightist and leftist paramilitary groups. Was the left simply not bashing hard enough? Hell, from my understanding anarchists are getting into fights with the Golden Dawn fairly often and it hasn't dented their popularity at all. Relatedly, are there leftwing equivalents of those Golden Dawn soup kitchens? I don't really understand why SYRIZA doesn't do something similar (if it hasn't already).
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# ? Aug 10, 2013 20:35 |
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Glenn Zimmerman posted:Is the Battle of Cable Street really that good of an example? I mean, it's not like Germany and Italy were lacking in violent conflicts between rightist and leftist paramilitary groups. Was the left simply not bashing hard enough? In Weimar Germany, to be active in politics was quite literally to take your life into your own hands. All the parties pretty much hated each other and had attendant political combat leagues which turned elections into running street brawls more often than not. Even your bog standard political meeting stood a good chance of turning eventful as uniformed goons from some other party frequently would try to break them up via rubber truncheons and brass knuckles. Two main differences in the street fighting-stage were as follows: The Nazi combat league, the SA, was much more directly (though not completely) under the control of the party whereas, say, the Reichbaner or Rotesfrontkampferbund were more independent of their parent parties (the SPD and KPD, respectively). Second, and more importantly, the Stahlhelm, Germany's official veteran's organization and unofficial reserve for its tiny allowed army, also moonlighted as right-wing thugs a lot of the time, and was by far the largest and best equipped of the political leagues. While not actually aligned with the Nazi SA, and on occasion mixing it up with them, it did help to pen in the smaller combat leagues of the sorta-left and hard-left. Two good reads on the subject are James Diehl's Paramilitary Politics in Weimar Germany and Dirk Schumann's Political Violence in the Weimar Republic, 1918-1933.
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# ? Aug 10, 2013 20:45 |
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KazigluBey posted:Jesus loving Christ. You're literally spinning this into a moral victory for Mosley and the black-shirts, I can't loving believe it... Then you need to open your eyes, because I'm not spinning anything - I'm reporting exactly what happened in 1936. History may recognise that Cable Street was the result of decent people standing up for their Jewish neighbours, but Mosley was able to win a lot of short-term public sympathy by painting it as the Jews responding to the Home Secretary's refusal to ban the BUF march at their demand by orchestrating a violent attack against legitimate authority figures defending the BUF's democratic rights.
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# ? Aug 10, 2013 21:02 |
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Ardennes posted:A poll from May had Le Pen leading Hollande by 4% (latest on wikipedia), 24% of the country is substantial even if they haven't turned that support into seats because of France's voting system. To be fair Hollande is extremely unpopular due to pretending to be fairly left wing in the election and then adhering to neoliberal orthodoxy once in power. It is still extremely worrying but his personal unpopularity makes things look somewhat worse than they are. Jedit posted:Then you need to open your eyes, because I'm not spinning anything - I'm reporting exactly what happened in 1936. History may recognise that Cable Street was the result of decent people standing up for their Jewish neighbours, but Mosley was able to win a lot of short-term public sympathy by painting it as the Jews responding to the Home Secretary's refusal to ban the BUF march at their demand by orchestrating a violent attack against legitimate authority figures defending the BUF's democratic rights. Can you offer evidence of this? I'd be interested to see it. More importantly though did the BUF try any more incitement marches after getting beaten up by the residents of cable street? Because if it stopped them from doing that then some armchair fascists moaning about "democratic rights" is of no consequence. ReV VAdAUL fucked around with this message at 21:13 on Aug 10, 2013 |
# ? Aug 10, 2013 21:09 |
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# ? May 23, 2024 15:28 |
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Jedit posted:legitimate authority figures defending the BUF's democratic rights. God forbid we trample on the sacred democratic rights of fascist parties. Socialist parties, though? Beat the poo poo out of them, ransack the offices, send 'em to jail. Traitors, the lot of them.
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# ? Aug 10, 2013 21:10 |