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Schwarzwald posted:Why? Because when you convey such a negative message that you can't even care about the good guys because they're just as evil as the villains, it's hard to find a side to really root for or look up to.
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Aug 10, 2013 20:28
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Seriously though. Watch Da Garn. Witness Seiji being a completely believable 12 year old boy with actual character growth, it's awesome.
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Aug 10, 2013 20:30
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I would if anything were subbed past episode 17 (as far as I can tell, anyway.)
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Aug 10, 2013 20:31
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ImpAtom posted:Seriously though. Watch Da Garn. Witness Seiji being a completely believable 12 year old boy with actual character growth, it's awesome. He acts like a stupid teenager, I can't at all relate to his stupid whining about the millitary. It's just not as gripping as Mamoru's internalizations about being an alien, it's a much much more itneresting story.
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Aug 10, 2013 20:32
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ImpAtom posted:Seriously though. Watch Da Garn. Witness Seiji being a completely believable 12 year old boy with actual character growth, it's awesome. I'm about halfway through Da Garn and I agree with this. Animation's not as good as GGG's (though I rather like the early 90s anime aesthetic going on), but I've found Seiji to be a much more compelling character than Mamoru and Guy ever were. The only reason I haven't been watching more is because the subs aren't finished, so I figured it was best to take a break before starting a new story arc. (But hey the fansubs might finish this year so that's pretty cool) Sakurazuka posted:I would if anything were subbed past episode 17 (as far as I can tell, anyway.) It's subbed up to 41 so they're almost done! They haven't had a release for a few months though. Srice fucked around with this message at 20:38 on Aug 10, 2013 |
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Aug 10, 2013 20:33
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You act like that's part of his personality from episode 1 and not something that happens as a result of the story.
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Aug 10, 2013 20:33
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Sakurazuka posted:I would if anything were subbed past episode 17 (as far as I can tell, anyway.) Way way more than episode 17 is finished. They're like 4 episodes from the end. Clawshrimpy posted:He acts like a stupid teenager, I can't at all relate to his stupid whining about the millitary. It's just not as gripping as Mamoru's internalizations about being an alien, it's a much much more itneresting story. Seiji's father is literally part of the military and a complete awesome character. Aside from one small arc near the middle of the show, he never "whines" about the military, and in that arc it is because he and the military come to heads over the idea that he is controlling the robots without oversight which is actually an important part of the show and of his character development. You've never actually watched the show if you compare him to Kamille.
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Aug 10, 2013 20:33
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ImpAtom posted:Way way more than episode 17 is finished. They're like 4 episodes from the end. Yeah and that arc in the middle is so bad I dropped it right there.
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Aug 10, 2013 20:35
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ImpAtom posted:Way way more than episode 17 is finished. They're like 4 episodes from the end. Yeah, apparently 'as far as I can tell' is not very far.
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Aug 10, 2013 20:35
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Clawshrimpy posted:Yeah and that arc in the middle is so bad I dropped it right there. Boy, it's a good thing there's not anything like... I don't know, character development that comes from events. No, I'll just go onto message boards and yell about how Seiji is Kamille despite having not seen the show or what develops from it. Sakurazuka posted:Yeah, apparently 'as far as I can tell' is not very far. http://hikarisenshi.wordpress.com/ should have a lot of the ones you're missing. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 20:41 on Aug 10, 2013 |
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Aug 10, 2013 20:36
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ImpAtom posted:Boy, it's a good thing there's not anything like... I don't know, character development that comes from events. No, I'll just go onto message boards and yell about how Seiji is Kamille despite having not seen the show or what develops from it. Still, Seiji just isn't as interesting a young lead as Mamoru, or the kids in Raijin-Oh are. He's written almost identically to the young Gundam pilots.
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Aug 10, 2013 20:40
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I thought you dropped Da Garn because they had the audacity to do a vulgar joke in a show aimed at little kids.
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Aug 10, 2013 20:41
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Clawshrimpy posted:because they always do things that are HIGHLY morally questionable, so it's hard to care about them. Clawshrimpy posted:Because when you convey such a negative message that you can't even care about the good guys because they're just as evil as the villains, it's hard to find a side to really root for or look up to. At this point I am starting to think that you are just incapable of relating to or understanding other human beings. An imperfect and flawed character is much more realistic and believable and easier to relate to for any regular person. People are flawed and imperfect, showing a character being able to accomplish something good despite that or overcoming their own flaws is something that should be and is be inspiring to anyone.
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Aug 10, 2013 20:43
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Justin_Brett posted:I thought you dropped Da Garn because they had the audacity to do a vulgar joke in a show aimed at little kids. That was another reason, yeah. It's really the conbination of the piss joke and the horrible middle arc that pushed me over the edge.
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Aug 10, 2013 20:44
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Clawshrimpy posted:Still, Seiji just isn't as interesting a young lead as Mamoru, or the kids in Raijin-Oh are. No, he really isn't. Seiji's thing is that he acts like an actual 12 year old would. When given control over giant robots to save the world, his response is a mix of "this is loving awesome" and "crap, what do I do now?" He'll use his robots to go on a trip around the world because he can and makes bad decisions early on. His character development, however, is to learn to stop making those bad decisions and grow up and mature. There's an entire episode where Seiji is forced to destroy a priceless historical site in order to defeat an enemy and then he has to deal with the fact that he has no real concept or idea of the worth of what he had to blow up and his response is to go to actually take the time, learn about it, and feel regret for what he had to sacrifice, but it also galvanizes him to not make the same sacrifices again if he can avoid it through being more careful and planning better. The entire show is about Seiji's growth and maturity and in an inspiring and hopeful way.
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Aug 10, 2013 20:47
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Has there been any "must watch" show lately? (lately as in, let's say, since Z-Hen ended) I haven't been paying that much attention to mecha lately, and the only show I've got my eye on is the new Yamato, but that's not super robot - at least until the Yamato transforms, I guess.
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Aug 10, 2013 20:52
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KoldPT posted:Has there been any "must watch" show lately? (lately as in, let's say, since Z-Hen ended) Not really. There were three shows last season but all skew closer to Real and none were Must Watch.
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Aug 10, 2013 20:56
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ImpAtom posted:No, he really isn't. Ehh, event hat's not really close to what Mamoru had to go through in FINAL. He created the clone to get away from the Sol Lords, but they use the clone he created to cause so much havok and to reclaim the Q-Parts he worked so hard to get out of their hands. In fact, Mamoru making the clone kinda indirectly made him responsible for Pappilon's death. It's more meaningful to have a character have drama about getting someone killed rather than desecrating relics.
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Aug 10, 2013 20:59
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KoldPT posted:Has there been any "must watch" show lately? (lately as in, let's say, since Z-Hen ended) Majestic Prince started out a little rough but it has become quite the endearing show. It really feels like an older mecha show that just happens to have a modern look to it. The CG mechs are handled quite well on its tv budget, which is a small miracle. Most of the time I feel that most CG mechs in tv anime are acceptable, but not exciting. But this is the first show where I've felt otherwise. Definitely more real than super though. Nothing has really been happening on the super robot side of mecha anime outside of older shows getting fansubbed (or in other words, now would be a good time to check out Da Garn!). Srice fucked around with this message at 21:03 on Aug 10, 2013 |
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Aug 10, 2013 21:00
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Clawshrimpy posted:Ehh, event hat's not really close to what Mamoru had to go through in FINAL. Da Garn does something with that too. It's almost like you'd have known if you watched it instead of going "I watched 16 episodes but it CLEARLY doesn't have the same kind of character development." Admittedly there is literally nothing I could tell you which would make you change your mind because GaoGaiGar must be the only good show in existence.
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Aug 10, 2013 21:01
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ImpAtom posted:Da Garn does something with that too. It's almost like you'd have known if you watched it instead of going "I watched 16 episodes but it CLEARLY doesn't have the same kind of character development." But, from what I understand, wasn't Da Garn like really hamstrung by Takara's meddling or am I thinking of a different one. I thoguht nobody actualy dies in Da Garn?
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Aug 10, 2013 21:03
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Clawshrimpy posted:But, from what I understand, wasn't Da Garn like really hamstrung by Takara's meddling or am I thinking of a different one. I thoguht nobody actualy dies in Da Garn? You're thinking of another show. There are several onscreen deaths in Da Garn.
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Aug 10, 2013 21:04
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ImpAtom posted:You're thinking of another show. There are several onscreen deaths in Da Garn. Robot deaths or human deaths? I thought GaoGaiGar was the only one where they could actually get away with killing the humans because Takara was really kinda.... restrictive it that reguard until then.
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Aug 10, 2013 21:12
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tell us more about how volfogg is the second best robot, only to big volfogg~
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Aug 10, 2013 21:19
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Clawshrimpy posted:Robot deaths or human deaths? Both. You're right that they downplay the destruction a giant robot battle would cause to the city (unlike GGG which Dividing Drivers) but it isn't free of death.
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Aug 10, 2013 21:19
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Paper Lion posted:tell us more about how volfogg is the second best robot, only to big volfogg~
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Aug 10, 2013 21:33
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I love Volfogg he is the best robot because he is a ninja and also can into a police car!
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Aug 10, 2013 21:46
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And he has a doberman AND helicopter robots!
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Aug 10, 2013 22:00
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ImpAtom posted:Not really. There were three shows last season but all skew closer to Real and none were Must Watch. It's not going to win any awards for the story, but the action scenes in Majestic Prince are pretty close to the best (Real) mecha action scenes in anything, ever. Edit: Speaking of Brave shows, another episode of Goldran has popped up subbed after what looks like a three year hiatus. Sakurazuka fucked around with this message at 22:37 on Aug 10, 2013 |
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Aug 10, 2013 22:15
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Sakurazuka posted:Edit: Speaking of Brave shows, another episode of Goldran has popped up subbed after what looks like a three year hiatus. That's pretty cool. Here's hoping the show can actually get finished subs, though I'm not gonna hold my breath. Apparently the translator vanished for over 2 years and just showed up out of the blue with a finished episode. How very anime~ It does seem like the few groups that bother to sub old mecha shows tend to be way too busy to get releases out on a consistent basis. It sucks because I'd really like to follow them as episodes get released, but when I look at something like Layzner and see that after 4 years it's still not finished, it's rather demoralizing. Could certainly be worse though, at least the team behind Layzner is committed to finishing it someday. Some shows get a dozen or so episodes out and then the group vanishes  I think 2012 spoiled me by having three major projects (L-Gaim, Xabungle, and Brygar) all finish up within a few months of each other. For 2013 there's the possibility that Da Garn might be completed before the end of the year (though even if it doesn't, at least they're almost done) but if there's anything else, I'm not aware of it.
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Aug 10, 2013 23:05
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Clawshrimpy posted:moral ambiguity is okay if it's done well, like GGG FINAL's second episode. But there's a line that ends up crossed in a lot of mediocre/bad mecha anime where the heroes regularly become jerks or outright villainous that I really really don't like. You didn't really address my comment about you wanting your "knight in shining armor" over any character that has to have the heroes journey or character development. Because so far that seems to be the only plot format you like. I'm assuming, since you haven't gone into any detail on your example, that the moral ambiguity that you're trying to use is the episode in which the clone Mamoru goes on a ramapage through 3G and Guy has to fight him. If so the ambiguity is rendered void almost immediately afterwards when he's revealed to be a fake. Had they actually had the real Mamoru do all that then it would be morally ambiguous since there must be something really dangerous that would cause a character to turn 180 on their stances. Your arguement for 70's super robot anime being cliche is also flawed in that most of those series started the trends. Combining robots started in the 70s with Getter, Voltes, Zombot, Combattller V, etc. And you can't be fair if you're saying that they ran with the cliches of "Mad scientist taking over the world" or "Dinosaurs invading Humanity" and you're not calling out GGG for the same things. GGG is a show about "Dinosaurs invading Humanity". Only those dinosaurs are aliens that are also mad scientists that are changing stuff for their purposes. You also seem to fixate on mentioning that explosions and flashy effects are what super robot series fall on when writing is as good. GGG has tons of large explosions and flashy effects. Final fusion is a prime example of this and every time they show it gets flashier. Majority of the series was "monster of the week" formatting until they shifted it to focus on an older demographic and even then its format was still similar to sentai series. You bash Shin Mazinger a lot but it was a show with great writing, direction, artwork and development. You just have to be willing to accept that characters can have development and learn. Whether you care to actually debate about story-writing and show development of super robot shows is up to you. But so far all you seem to be doing is waving a large GGG flag around without giving any credible information or argument that the series is this ivory tower you keep speaking of. If you're going to defend a series to the death at least start using specific examples from said series. Else you'll just appear to be defending it based on what you've read from its wikipedia entry.
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Aug 10, 2013 23:21
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Revolver Bunker posted:You didn't really address my comment about you wanting your "knight in shining armor" over any character that has to have the heroes journey or character development. Because so far that seems to be the only plot format you like. So what, what's so bad about "knights in shining armor"? It's certainly better than "heroes" who you can't even root for because they are just as bad as or sometimes worse than who they are fighting. Yes, that was the scene I was referencing, and it's not registered void just because of the clone reveal, in fact, THAT'S what makes it genius. "clones" were used to great effect with the Cylon infiltrators in the new Galactica show over here, and I don't see how clones or replicants can take away from moral ambiguity. in fact, it's a good method of doing it without painting the heroes as completely irredeemable. GGG isn't the same as those 70s show, though, both the Zonders and the Sol Lords were a deep analysis of the relationship between humankind and AI. Sure they seemed evil at a glance, but they were extremely sympathetic when you consider their goals. Where in say, Mazinger. Dr. Hell was nothing but a crazy scientist who wanted to play Hitler with the world. Voltes V was just a Gundam-ish racism story between "the horned and the hornless." so it's pretty ridiculous to compare them like that. Also, GGG wasn't really known to be flashy. In fact, one could say the action is the big "weakness" of the show because of the rampant use of Stock Footage. GGG strengths has always been in the interactions between the characters and the story at large.
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Aug 10, 2013 23:47
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This argument is dumb because Getter Robo exists. Complete rear end in a top hat psychopath pilots and good writing can co-exist, Getter alone proves it.
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Aug 10, 2013 23:49
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Clawshrimpy posted:So what, what's so bad about "knights in shining armor"? It's certainly better than "heroes" who you can't even root for because they are just as bad as or sometimes worse than who they are fighting. So, having protagonists who are never anything less than totally awesome human beings is boring as poo poo.
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Aug 10, 2013 23:53
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What's your opinion on "people" clawshrimpy?
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Aug 10, 2013 23:53
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Light Gun Man posted:This argument is dumb because Getter Robo exists. Complete rear end in a top hat psychopath pilots and good writing can co-exist, Getter alone proves it. No, it's not, Ishikawa was a student of Nagai, meaning he was just as much of a hack as he was. Getter Robo was always just BARELY better than Mazinger, and even then, most of the time, the characters were unlikable pricks.
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Aug 10, 2013 23:55
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Dickeye posted:So, having protagonists who are never anything less than totally awesome human beings is boring as poo poo. That's not the point, moral ambiguity is fine, it's just most shows are way too heavy handed with it.
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Aug 10, 2013 23:56
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Clawshrimpy posted:Also, GGG wasn't really known to be flashy. Do you need me to link to the stock footage of the show that is literally flashing red/blue strobes at you, or how about the black/white strobes? volfogg has black/purple flashing too! That show is all about the stock footage and the style and you are seriously a crazyman that doesn't understand things
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Aug 10, 2013 23:58
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Clawshrimpy posted:That's not the point, moral ambiguity is fine, it's just most shows are way too heavy handed with it. Except you keep raging about how protagonist doing *insert bad thing* makes them just as bad as the villains, and it's loving laughable. People do bad things without instantly being maniacal villains, or as bad as them.
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Aug 10, 2013 23:59
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So Shrimpy, what was your view on Gendo as a father figure, vs Kamina as a father figure?
FortMax fucked around with this message at 00:38 on Aug 11, 2013 |
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Aug 11, 2013 00:00
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