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david carmichael posted:Lewis was like 250+. There are really athletic big fellas, but they are rare, and they go into other sports yeah, lewis was big, and that's all true, but like mma cruiser weight would be 235, and i imagine even he could cut down to 235. there's already a decent amount of big guys in the hw division at the moment, and yet the "cruiser weight" guys are more than competitive with them. i'm sure the size may go up a bit, and what's mostly going to happen is you're not going to the get the fat lhw competing at hw anymore.
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# ? Aug 11, 2013 19:54 |
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# ? Jun 8, 2024 09:29 |
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I've never really bought into the idea that money alone is going to pull a bunch of 260+ pound guys from a sport where they move for 5-10 seconds every four minutes to one where you might spend five rounds scrambling with JDS.
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# ? Aug 11, 2013 22:13 |
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Julio Cesar Fatass posted:I've never really bought into the idea that money alone is going to pull a bunch of 260+ pound guys from a sport where they move for 5-10 seconds every four minutes to one where you might spend five rounds scrambling with JDS. Well isn't the average NFL career like 4 years or something? I dunno what the average heavyweight MMA career is either, but I think it may help that while you have to scramble with JDS for 15 minutes, you only do that twice a year, while NFL dudes have to take damage every week for half a year every year. I think you have a much better chance of having a longer career in MMA than you do in the NFL. I think the real heart of the issue is some people are born fighters and most are not. The dudes that don't have it in them to compete in combat sports most likely should not get involved in the first place.
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# ? Aug 11, 2013 23:16 |
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I'm not sure that I believe an MMA career is less damaging than an NFL career. You might only fight twice a year, but every week that you're sparring is a week where you will get punched in the face.
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# ? Aug 11, 2013 23:30 |
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1st AD posted:I'm not sure that I believe an MMA career is less damaging than an NFL career. You might only fight twice a year, but every week that you're sparring is a week where you will get punched in the face. Well if you train smart it should minimize how much damage you take as you train for a fight. Not everybody turns into Chuck. And it isn't like NFL dudes only play when they step out on the field either. They practice throughout the week too. It would be a difficult thing to measure because MMA doesn't have regular seasons like the NFL does, but dudes like Nog, Mir, Werdum, Nelson, Barnett, Overeem, and others have all been fighting for a decade, and only Nog seems like a dude that should have been retired by now.
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# ? Aug 11, 2013 23:47 |
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brandon schaub and matt mitrione, men ahead of their time
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# ? Aug 12, 2013 00:23 |
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brain damage is a terrible thing but the real MMA epidemic is that every single top flight fighter has had 800 major knee surgeries and that's just accepted as part of the game, it's terrifying
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# ? Aug 12, 2013 01:50 |
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Triticum Guzzler posted:brain damage is a terrible thing but the real MMA epidemic is that every single top flight fighter has had 800 major knee surgeries and that's just accepted as part of the game, it's terrifying That's just kind of how it is with every professional sport though isn't it? I think the brain injuries part is highlighted because it is more exclusive to MMA (and boxing and football) as opposed to like, soccer or baseball or ultimate frisbee or whatever.
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# ? Aug 12, 2013 01:55 |
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For the record I wasn't even talking about how "damaging" a career is overall, only how much acute pain/injury a participant is expected to sustain and continue through. In football you're expected to take big hits and probably play through some injuries but nobody expects you to keep playing when your nose is shattered and you're aspirating blood. What might be going on with your brain after years of participation is kind of a different issue than that.
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# ? Aug 12, 2013 02:37 |
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Thermos H Christ posted:For the record I wasn't even talking about how "damaging" a career is overall, only how much acute pain/injury a participant is expected to sustain and continue through. In football you're expected to take big hits and probably play through some injuries but nobody expects you to keep playing when your nose is shattered and you're aspirating blood. What might be going on with your brain after years of participation is kind of a different issue than that. Are you serious? NFL players, especially linemen, get broken fingers and noses pretty much every game. They go off the field, wrap it, and come back on. Toughness isn't the deciding factor. It's all about the money.
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# ? Aug 12, 2013 02:48 |
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1st AD posted:I'm not sure that I believe an MMA career is less damaging than an NFL career. You might only fight twice a year, but every week that you're sparring is a week where you will get punched in the face. Given the state of so many retired NFL players, a long career in the NFL is probably more damaging. It's hard to say now since we have so few data points on the MMA side, and some of the outliers like Goodridge have damaging kickboxing careers on top of MMA.
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# ? Aug 12, 2013 02:51 |
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I'd say anyone on a college/NFL line would have it much worse. It's not uncommon to get a minor concussion multiple times per game and keep going.
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# ? Aug 12, 2013 03:08 |
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DumbWhiteGuy posted:That's just kind of how it is with every professional sport though isn't it? I think the brain injuries part is highlighted because it is more exclusive to MMA (and boxing and football) as opposed to like, soccer or baseball or ultimate frisbee or whatever. I think the brain injuries part of it is highlighted more because people have an easier time coming to terms with walking with a cane when they're older than they are with not remembering where they live.
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# ? Aug 12, 2013 03:30 |
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IIRC there was a cat in Florida who sunk a shitload of money into making undrafted NCAA football studs into heavyweight boxers. Last I heard it hadn't gone anywhere worth mentioning. e: Brain injuries, like fatherdog said, are loving scary in a way that basically nothing except major burns or limb amputations are. Even the football dads with big throbbing erections over the idea of kids playing with broken bones are brough up short by the idea of their sons drooling and making GBS threads on themselves by 50. Julio Cesar Fatass fucked around with this message at 03:57 on Aug 12, 2013 |
# ? Aug 12, 2013 03:54 |
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Julio Cesar Fatass posted:IIRC there was a cat in Florida who sunk a shitload of money into making undrafted NCAA football studs into heavyweight boxers. Last I heard it hadn't gone anywhere worth mentioning. Team Touchdown.
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# ? Aug 12, 2013 04:34 |
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Elemennop posted:as fatherdog has pointed out a hundred times, back when boxing was probably the biggest professional sport in the world, heavyweights were never at brock levels. Ali was like 216 at 6'3'', Dempsey was 6'1'' and less than 200, Jack Johnson was 200 at 6'0.5'', and Joe Louis was 214 at 6'2''. Super Heavyweight wrestling goes up a bit higher: Karelin was 285 at 6'4'' I think, and he's the absolute largest you get (at least couting lean bodyweight). there's no real evidence that there's ever going to be a legion of brock lesnars dominating heavyweight, and in fact it looks like the heavyweights on the lighter side of the division seem to have the advantage. There's only ever been one world champion boxer above the 265, despite the lack of weight limits. Nikolai Valuev was 330 lbs. and 7'1", but he's a major outlier and was not a dominant champion. For #2 you have to go back to the loving 1930s for Primo Carnera (6'9" and 260 lbs.). Part of this is boxing doesn't require lifting strength so being jacked as gently caress is a disadvantage if it makes you slower. Still though, the global talent pool of athletes that can't cut down to 265 is still really loving slim. When JCS from FightMatrix did an informal study on the global talent pool by division a couple years ago, he concluded that HW with it's 60 lbs. spread, which he then combined with the few SHWs out there, was slightly smaller than LHW, which was slightly smaller than Bantamweight, and smaller than every division in-between. There is no point from a competition standpoint to keep a cap on HWs, except maybe for amateur fights. From a political standpoint, it gives the UFC and MMA a talking point saying how their 265 lbs. cap helps make them safer than boxing (Dana White has actually given this as a reason), which makes it easier to get legalized in places (mostly overseas now though). I suppose it's a good enough reason to keep a cap in the Unified Rules. From an entertainment standpoint, it means that Heavyweights who might be good enough to get into the UFC on the basis of lots of first round KOs have a minimum cardio standpoint, so they can only gas out so much when facing better competition in the UFC. I suppose if it were a simple thing to do and it were up to me I'd raise the limit to 275 or whatever, both so fewer of those weird outliers like Bigfoot Silva aren't drat near emaciating themselves, and also to help pave the way for Cruiserweight should that ever become an actual thing in like a decade maybe (probably not). CW would be 225, and HW would still have a nice 50+ lbs. so it could have the same number of dudes, and big/slow/fat trashweights who somehow make it to the elite level (Ben Rothwell, Roy Nelson, Tim Sylvia at one point, etc.), could still be only so big and slow and fat. Or maybe I just like rounder numbers, idk.
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# ? Aug 12, 2013 04:35 |
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Bubba Smith posted:Well isn't the average NFL career like 4 years or something? I dunno what the average heavyweight MMA career is either, but I think it may help that while you have to scramble with JDS for 15 minutes, you only do that twice a year, while NFL dudes have to take damage every week for half a year every year. I think you have a much better chance of having a longer career in MMA than you do in the NFL. For what it's worth, the median 200lb+ MMA fighter fights to age 35 while the median drafted NFL lineman plays to age 31.
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# ? Aug 12, 2013 05:03 |
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I've read a couple of places that MMA fighters, who aren't full blown tards that keep going when they shouldn't, don't have a very grim future compared to other sports. Football, boxing, etc. you get up and keep getting hit in the head unless you get put into the deep loving side of the unconscious pool. MMA you either move the fight to the ground or get stopped. You don't see people getting scraped off the mat and given and wobbling standing eight count to continue fighting in MMA.
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# ? Aug 12, 2013 05:09 |
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Thanks dokmo, your statistics in the NBA threads are great. And while there is some amateur MMA happening before heavyweights go pro, I doubt it compares to a few years of NCAA playing before making it to the NFL. Tons of dudes get banged up in college before they even make it to the pros. Both sports damage the hell out of the mind and bodies of the people playing them, but I do think MMA has a slight edge in being safer and that could lure a few heavy men to switch sports from football to fighting if the money improves.
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# ? Aug 12, 2013 05:11 |
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I don't know if this is devil's advocate but in MMA if a guy falls to the ground then the guy that remains standing is obligated to keep hitting until the ref waves him off, and this doesn't happen in boxing. I realize boxing has 10 counts that can cause repeated brain trauma, etc, and that doesn't happen in MMA, but MMA has incidents where a dude's blood gets wiped across the canvas for 5 rounds and the drat fight doesn't end because neither of the dudes tap out or go limp mewse fucked around with this message at 06:13 on Aug 12, 2013 |
# ? Aug 12, 2013 05:53 |
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I don't think there is anyway to deny you take more headshots in boxing, and you can get knocked unconscious in boxing and then keep punched in the head for a while.
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# ? Aug 12, 2013 06:39 |
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mewse posted:I don't know if this is devil's advocate but in MMA if a guy falls to the ground then the guy that remains standing is obligated to keep hitting until the ref waves him off, and this doesn't happen in boxing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second-impact_syndrome
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# ? Aug 12, 2013 14:05 |
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Bubba Smith posted:Well isn't the average NFL career like 4 years or something? I dunno what the average heavyweight MMA career is either, but I think it may help that while you have to scramble with JDS for 15 minutes, you only do that twice a year, while NFL dudes have to take damage every week for half a year every year. I think you have a much better chance of having a longer career in MMA than you do in the NFL. you'd make so much more in those four years than you would in a 20 year mma career
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# ? Aug 12, 2013 14:58 |
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MassRafTer posted:Team Touchdown.
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# ? Aug 12, 2013 15:00 |
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I avoid training often because even after light sparring and getting tapped in the head, I feel like I have lost IQ points or something. I swear I used to be smarter than I am now. I don't think its just full on knock outs in the ring, I think even light punches cause brain problems as well. It can't be good for you.
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# ? Aug 12, 2013 15:26 |
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Memo from dfw jr posted:- And finally, always remember this: you would be SHOCKED to learn how much they pay attention to when it comes to MMA media. Their corporate and PR teams love Bleacher Report, and they read everything. You may think you're flying under the radar, but you aren't. They are all paying attention. Well it's nice to finally have confirmation that Joe Silva does read these threads. Thanks Joe, you're doing great work. willie_dee posted:I avoid training often because even after light sparring and getting tapped in the head, I feel like I have lost IQ points or something. I swear I used to be smarter than I am now. I think everyone feels like that, even if you've never been punched in the head once. When you were younger you had less things to worry about so it was easier to remember trivial stuff. Getting punched in the head doesn't help things though.
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# ? Aug 12, 2013 18:19 |
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so what's up with Dana's mom? All I've ever seen about her is she's real mad at him over money she thinks she's owed.
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# ? Aug 12, 2013 19:39 |
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coconono posted:so what's up with Dana's mom? All I've ever seen about her is she's real mad at him over money she thinks she's owed. Dana's mother wasn't a big part of his childhood, and she's very upset that now that he's rich he hasn't tried to get back in contact with her in any way ($$$). So she wrote a tell-all book in collaboration with Jerry Millen where the first chapter involves how much he resembled Satan when he was born. fatherdog fucked around with this message at 19:46 on Aug 12, 2013 |
# ? Aug 12, 2013 19:43 |
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quote:- Don't delve too deep into Zuffa financials. This goes for fighter pay, revenue, money donated to political campaigns. This is Dana's biggest pet peeve. Because they are a private company, it's almost impossible to verify actual financial numbers for any of these subjects. Even if you have two good sources verifying your information, there are still a lot of things they do behind the scenes that makes it a really tough subject to get right.
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# ? Aug 12, 2013 21:37 |
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I feel like I see guys suffer a concussion and continue getting beat on all the time in MMA. I mean as a Frankie Edgar fan can you really deny it? Maybe they don't go fully out but I think plenty of fights go on well after the guy would be wrestling the ref if he stepped in. I mean if we're just talking about guys who are out cold I don't know that boxing is too much worse. A boxing ref is generally going wave off a fight where a guy is out like a light without doing any kind of count. I also don't think it's uncommon in boxing for the fight to be stopped just because one fighter looks badly outclassed and the ref doesn't see any point in letting a one-sided beatdown continue, even though they're clearly awake and fighting back.
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# ? Aug 12, 2013 22:27 |
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fatherdog posted:Dana's mother wasn't a big part of his childhood, and she's very upset that now that he's rich he hasn't tried to get back in contact with her in any way ($$$). So she wrote a tell-all book in collaboration with Jerry Millen where the first chapter involves how much he resembled Satan when he was born. I grabbed that before getting on a plane without realizing it was written by Dana's mother, hoping that it would have some interesting behind the scenes stuff on UFC. After basically flipping through it I get the impression that Dana's mother is on par with Tony Soprano's.
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# ? Aug 12, 2013 22:44 |
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quote:Don't "report" things unless you have two very credible sources. Don't take a rumor and post it as fact. They literally need to be reminded what journalism is. This memo isn't telling their writing staff how to 'handle the UFC', its trying to educate them on how to actually conduct themselves in a semblance of a professional manner. MycroftXXX fucked around with this message at 00:31 on Aug 13, 2013 |
# ? Aug 13, 2013 00:27 |
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I don't see a single unreasonable thing on that list.
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# ? Aug 13, 2013 01:48 |
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MycroftXXX posted:This memo isn't telling their writing staff how to 'handle the UFC', its trying to educate them on how to actually conduct themselves in a semblance of a professional manner. YOU'RE NOT THE BOSS OF ME YOU CAN'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO
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# ? Aug 13, 2013 01:49 |
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Fat Twitter Man posted:I don't see a single unreasonable thing on that list. It's journalism 101 poo poo, really. Keep it poignant, don't be a mouth piece for anyone, and confirm your sources. When there's only one game in town, and there's no duty to have posted and open meetings, don't needlessly piss off the management. Someone get me a list of good MMA contacts. It's time to turn my profession into my hobby, and get SASMMA reporting to where it needs to be!
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# ? Aug 13, 2013 02:56 |
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Fat Twitter Man posted:I don't see a single unreasonable thing on that list.
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# ? Aug 13, 2013 16:43 |
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Grifter posted:There's a huge problem with the financials thing. By telling them not to publish regardless of their number of sources, it provides a chilling effect on any financial discussion, which means the UFC has an edge on controlling their fighters. The memo explains in detail why financial speculation regarding a private company is stupid and unethical, and even if a fighter shows off checks he got or whatever you still don't know if those are the only checks he got.
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# ? Aug 13, 2013 17:02 |
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Fat Twitter Man posted:The memo explains in detail why financial speculation regarding a private company is stupid and unethical, and even if a fighter shows off checks he got or whatever you still don't know if those are the only checks he got.
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# ? Aug 13, 2013 17:13 |
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# ? Jun 8, 2024 09:29 |
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Grifter posted:No it doesn't. It says "You might not get a full view of a fighter's pay, therefore don't talk about it all and definitely don't talk about things that are completely unrelated like revenue and campaign donations". There's plenty of ways for reporters to talk about these subjects and be clear about exactly how much they can or cannot confirm, but this memo is throwing a blanket on a much broader discussion. It's a memo specifically aimed at Bleacher Report "writers" who have to be told that they need sources to begin with and not to make Dana White's mom jokes. These are not people who are in a position to have a learned discussion on fighter pay. Most of them are doing stuff like slideshows of Arianny's best outfits.
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# ? Aug 13, 2013 17:22 |