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Jerusalem posted:Who was responsible for this monstrosity of a costume? The order to sex things up was definitely Tom De Falco. The abomination of the design is by Paul Ryan, current artist of The Phantom newspaper strip.
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Aug 4, 2013 03:32
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Reed's vest is pretty stupid too. I was always partial to the Thing's iron man helmet though
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Aug 4, 2013 04:26
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The thing is, Lee and Kirby both appeared in their FF run, but they had the good goddamn sense to write themselves in as the in-universe Fantastic Four comic team, were part of the plot by being threatened by Doctor Doom, and didn't show their faces. This is just terrible.
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Aug 4, 2013 07:29
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Random Stranger posted:Steve Engleheart F4 Wapole Languray posted:The thing is, Lee and Kirby both appeared in their FF run, but they had the good goddamn sense to write themselves in as the in-universe Fantastic Four comic team, were part of the plot by being threatened by Doctor Doom, and didn't show their faces. This is just terrible. DoctorDelaware posted:Tan Eng Huat Or is it Sputnik fucked around with this message at 11:04 on Aug 4, 2013 |
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Aug 4, 2013 10:55
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Random Stranger posted:Despite being Marvel's flagship title, Fantastic Four has a lot of terrible runs. The worst of them, and that's a tight race, has to be Steve Engleharts. Roy Thomas and Marv Wolfman were just bland. JMS, De Falco, and Millar were terrible enough to be put in this thread on their own, but it's Englehart that hits the bottom. Thanks for all the specific details on just why this run was such garbage. I bought that Fantastic Four dvd that goes up through around Civil War era, and Englehart's stuff was just so bad I had trouble reading it for the first time since the teens of the Lee/Kirby run, where Kirby was clearly penciling about six books. I do love that when DeFalco brings Sharon back she's dressed like a typical heroine on her off-days (tube top, mini-skirt, etc.), even though her one defining characteristic was hating being leered at. Englehart's blog about this time period is really delusional, too. http://www.steveenglehart.com/comics/Fantastic%20Four%20304-321.html "So it was that the series developed into something as rich and unpredictable as its earliest days, and regained all the lost readership - up through issue #321..." Yup, having the characters grow and having a new team was all your idea. Byrne just added She-Hulk, had Johnny start dating Alicia, had Sue become the most powerful member of the team.. And Englehart bizarrely just writes out Reed and Sue entirely, without even bothering to check up with them the way McDuffie did years later when they took a break. Sputnik, Englehart was mad at previous editorial interference, so he proceeded to bring his pet character where she made even less sense- fans in 1990 did not care about Mantis even a little bit. He doesn't get a pass just because he got kicked off another book. DeFalco's stuff is certainly not very good, but he at least keeps things interesting. And Paul Ryan's art is way better than the art during the Englehart era. And as bad as the Invisible Woman costume was during that period, at least there was an in-story explanation. She was being controlled by the Malice entity from the Byrne era, and was becoming more reckless and crazy.
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Aug 4, 2013 15:56
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laz0rbeak posted:"So it was that the series developed into something as rich and unpredictable as its earliest days, and regained all the lost readership - up through issue #321..." Yeah, it was just one year before when She-Hulk had been a member. And like I said, every creator with an extended run on FF eventually changes the team up to explore a different dynamic. Englehart did it in his very first issue. Also, his complaint about editorial interference which he responds to by making the FF secondary players to his Mantis storyline is a terrible idea. That storyline wasn't great when he started it on the Avengers back in the 70's and got really loving annoying when he brought her into everything. OTOH, I didn't know that the Beyonder story was a direct editorial demand, so Englehart gets a pass on that one. laz0rbeak posted:DeFalco's stuff is certainly not very good, but he at least keeps things interesting. And Paul Ryan's art is way better than the art during the Englehart era. I genuinely like Paul Ryan's artwork on that run. I wouldn't put him in the top tier of artists but he did a very respectable job with the crap he was handed in a period when a lot of artists completely lost their ability to present a narrative in their art. Wapole Languray posted:The thing is, Lee and Kirby both appeared in their FF run, but they had the good goddamn sense to write themselves in as the in-universe Fantastic Four comic team, were part of the plot by being threatened by Doctor Doom, and didn't show their faces. This is just terrible. The real problem with that ending is how it completely derails thing to stroke his own ego. That page is literally one page after the Even Byrne writing himself into the FF (a moment I didn't care for) is handled better. It's part of a month wide gag event, integrates reasonably into the existing storyline, and the team doesn't abandon their loved ones to go see him.
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Aug 4, 2013 17:46
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laz0rbeak posted:And as bad as the Invisible Woman costume was during that period, at least there was an in-story explanation. She was being controlled by the Malice entity from the Byrne era, and was becoming more reckless and crazy. That makes it much worse, actually. Pointless out of character titillation is one thing, but to explicitly tie overt female sexuality with EVIL INFLUENCE is... well, it's textbook Byrne all right. And that ain't a compliment.
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Aug 4, 2013 17:46
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Lurdiak posted:That makes it much worse, actually. Pointless out of character titillation is one thing, but to explicitly tie overt female sexuality with EVIL INFLUENCE is... well, it's textbook Byrne all right. And that ain't a compliment. It may not be progressive, but I hardly see how that makes it worse than a character just not wearing clothes without explanation? I mean, this wasn't new to comic book fiction, or genre fiction, or... any fiction. Plus, because it was part of a storyline, other characters were like "what's up with that costume?" which is better than comics that don't even acknowledge how ridiculous a costume like Psylocke's is. And the story itself isn't just "oh she's evil now so she dresses like that," either- Sue's consciousness is still around, and agrees to take in the Malice entity. How exactly is that worse than characters just being pointlessly sexy purely for a voyeuristic reader?
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Aug 4, 2013 23:21
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laz0rbeak posted:It may not be progressive, but I hardly see how that makes it worse than a character just not wearing clothes without explanation? I mean, this wasn't new to comic book fiction, or genre fiction, or... any fiction. It may not be worse, but its at least as bad. Mainly because they ultimately draw from the same reasoning pool. Also having a story reason for being a certain way doesn't exactly excuse you, because you came up with the story and can change things as you like. CharlestheHammer fucked around with this message at 23:45 on Aug 4, 2013 |
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Aug 4, 2013 23:40
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CharlestheHammer posted:It may not be worse, but its at least as bad. Mainly because they ultimately draw from the same reasoning pool. Also having a story reason for being a certain way doesn't exactly excuse you, because you came up with the story and can change things as you like. I wasn't saying it "excused" anything, I just think it's silly to argue that it's somehow worse when a character has an in-story explanation for their behavior. If nothing else, it gives the writer the chance to say something about the character or the larger issues involved. And since DeFalco and Ryan did say something about the character, I don't agree that's somehow worse than what was going on in about 90% of comics at the time. Speaking as somebody who was familiar with the dumb costume before reading the run, I think they did a decent enough job of telling a story that the silly costume doesn't seem nearly as ridiculous as it seemed out of context. Again, as opposed to most any comic on sale in 1993.
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Aug 5, 2013 00:17
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Quantum of Phallus posted:Also I agree, FF has a disproportionately high amount of terrible runs.
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Aug 13, 2013 11:22
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irlZaphod posted:I feel like Spider-Man does, too. I mean, aside from a few good stories here and there, or very short runs (like Wells on Avenging), there hasn't really been a solid run on Spidey since about half-way through JMS' run (when it went off the rails itself). At least FF have had the Waid/Wieringo, Hickman and now Fraction stuff within that timeframe. The Gauntlet/Grim Hunt is a good 30+ issue run, with one real misstep.
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Aug 13, 2013 11:27
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Waterhaul posted:The Gauntlet/Grim Hunt is a good 30+ issue run, with one real misstep. That poo poo was merely ok.
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Aug 13, 2013 12:26
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So I intended to talk about an example of an Objectively bad comic. My mistake was in re-reading the series, I was reminded how awful it is, and the only way to do proper Justice to it will be to do an issue by issue break down of it. Stand by.
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Aug 13, 2013 13:24
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The Terry Moore/Humberto Ramos run on v3 of Runaways made me drop the comic. To be fair, the title was limping after Whedon's run, but it was still one of my favorite titles and I'm a fan of Terry Moore. When I dropped it there was some shock jock turning people into zombies or something? It was terrible. Did Runaways get any kind of conclusion or was it just unceremoniously cancelled?
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Aug 13, 2013 15:44
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It was violently canceled when its not-usually-comic-reading fanbase revolted against the art change from the soft-edged realism to loving Ramos. Turns out that regular folk actually notice when you completely change the aesthetic of the product they consume.
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Aug 13, 2013 15:53
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Brocktoon posted:The Terry Moore/Humberto Ramos run on v3 of Runaways made me drop the comic. To be fair, the title was limping after Whedon's run, but it was still one of my favorite titles and I'm a fan of Terry Moore. When I dropped it there was some shock jock turning people into zombies or something? It was terrible. Has Joss Whedon's Runaways run been mentioned? Because gently caress Joss Whedon's Runaways run.
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Aug 13, 2013 15:55
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Lurdiak posted:It was violently canceled when its not-usually-comic-reading fanbase revolted against the art change from the soft-edged realism to loving Ramos. Turns out that regular folk actually notice when you completely change the aesthetic of the product they consume. I am pretty sure they said it would return, but currently most of the characters are in Avengers Arena being destroyed.
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Aug 13, 2013 15:56
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Was there actually anywhere for Runaways to go after The Pride was destroyed by the beings that they worked for? I mean, yeah, people love Molly's cameos in other stuff and where her character eventually gets to (leader of the X-men, somehow), but has there been anything else good to come out of it?
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Aug 13, 2013 18:59
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Genetic Toaster posted:Has Joss Whedon's Runaways run been mentioned? Because gently caress Joss Whedon's Runaways run. I never got the hate for his run. I didn't like it as much as what came before, but it didn't strike me as terrible or anything. edit: I did notice that Chase suddenly morphed into Xander. Billy Idle fucked around with this message at 19:22 on Aug 13, 2013 |
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Aug 13, 2013 19:08
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Wade Wilson posted:Was there actually anywhere for Runaways to go after The Pride was destroyed by the beings that they worked for? I haven't read all of the Runaways, just what my school library had, but after the Pride they just sort of wandered around without any real goal. It was still fun and an enjoyable read, though.
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Aug 13, 2013 19:10
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The Question IRL posted:So I intended to talk about an example of an Objectively bad comic. My mistake was in re-reading the series, I was reminded how awful it is, and the only way to do proper Justice to it will be to do an issue by issue break down of it. Stand by. Given the capitalized words in this post, I assume it's a Question comic, but what Question comic could it be? Was the Rick Veitch mini really that bad?
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Aug 13, 2013 19:12
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Wade Wilson posted:Was there actually anywhere for Runaways to go after The Pride was destroyed by the beings that they worked for? Not sure if this is before or after the event you mention (its been a long time and I lost interest during the terrible wheldon run) but after The Pride's "territory" became open a bunch of villains came and tried to claim it, resulting in the return of a bunch of silver age c-listers doing cameos as they tried to take over southern California
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Aug 13, 2013 19:21
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Billy Idle posted:I never got the hate for his run. I didn't like it as much as what came before, but it didn't strike me as terrible or anything. It had an abused puritan child bride character that Whedon made a permanent cast member. Wowee! Loads of fun in that storytelling angle! And this was after teasing adding an actually interesting, fun character to the cast, which turned out to be a fakeout. There's loads of other problems but I can't come at that loving terrible character from any angle that's positive or enjoyable for anyone.
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Aug 13, 2013 19:23
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I Before E posted:Given the capitalized words in this post, I assume it's a Question comic, but what Question comic could it be? Was the Rick Veitch mini really that bad? You are right to look at the capitalization as a clue, just wrong with your guess. I'll put up my thoughts in about an hour or so.
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Aug 13, 2013 19:23
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The Question IRL posted:You are right to look at the capitalization as a clue, just wrong with your guess. I had completely forgot about Living Assault Weapons. Man. At least that's what I'm assuming it is, because it can't be the O'Neill series, because that ruled.
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Aug 13, 2013 19:29
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I Before E posted:I had completely forgot about Living Assault Weapons. Man. At least that's what I'm assuming it is, because it can't be the O'Neill series, because that ruled. Is it Mr. A?
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Aug 13, 2013 19:30
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Wade Wilson posted:Was there actually anywhere for Runaways to go after The Pride was destroyed by the beings that they worked for? Vaughn's runs were quite good, with the second being not quite the quality of the first, but still certainly not bad. Whedon decided that he needed to cram in as many original characters as he could alongside a kinda meh time travel plot. I knew I was in for a bad trip when he went out of his way to have the Punisher beat up by Molly, and it ended up being all downhill from there. Ryan's art was pretty good, but it was mostly overloaded with interesting ideas that didn't go anywhere. It could have been worse; it was instead boring with a side of "Oh. Why didn't you do the more interesting with with the characters I'd rather be reading about?" Moore had some ideas that were better in thought than in execution. I can completely see why they'd think Ramos would be good for art duties, as he's a veteran of the kid friendly Impulse, but it was such a tonal shift after Alphona and Ryan that it actively detracted from my enjoyment of the story. Ramos is great at kinetic and exaggerated fighting, which was why he was so good on Impulse and Spider-Man, but for what is mostly a talking heads comic he really doesn't have much to go on. Similarly, Moore couldn't quite get the voices down right, and after all the high stakes that the Runaways had dealt with previously evil vampire Howard Stern just didn't work as a big bad guy. Nice idea in concept, but bad execution in the wrong comic. I can't speak to the Yost/Asmus or Immonen/Pichelli issues because my pull box got messed up and I never got them. But after Moore's run I was ready to pretend the books not written by Vaughn didn't exist. Toph Bei Fong fucked around with this message at 22:25 on Aug 13, 2013 |
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Aug 13, 2013 22:13
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I stopped reading Runaways after Whedon had them time-travelling within two issues of taking over the book.
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Aug 13, 2013 22:49
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bobkatt013 posted:I am pretty sure they said it would return, but currently most of the characters are in Avengers Arena being destroyed. Only Chase and Nico got dumped in that train wreck; however Victor's technically an Avenger now, as part of Pym's AI taskforce.
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Aug 13, 2013 23:39
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Gymer posted:Only Chase and Nico got dumped in that train wreck; however Victor's technically an Avenger now, as part of Pym's AI taskforce. Which, as Victor pointed out, is a bit weird since they know Victor entire purpose is to betray the Avengers. You'd think they'd at least check him out, do some diagnostics or something at all to make sure he doesn't have any secret programs in him.
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Aug 13, 2013 23:41
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WickedHate posted:Which, as Victor pointed out, is a bit weird since they know Victor entire purpose is to betray the Avengers. You'd think they'd at least check him out, do some diagnostics or something at all to make sure he doesn't have any secret programs in him. I'm pretty sure they've missed secret programs in both Jocasta and the Vision; it's probably simpler for them to take it as expected that everything will go wrong eventually.
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Aug 13, 2013 23:43
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prefect posted:I'm pretty sure they've missed secret programs in both Jocasta and the Vision; it's probably simpler for them to take it as expected that everything will go wrong eventually. That's...remarkably incompetent. I want to like AAI so hard, but it just feels like a mess.
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Aug 13, 2013 23:45
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I Before E posted:I had completely forgot about Living Assault Weapons. Man. At least that's what I'm assuming it is, because it can't be the O'Neill series, because that ruled. Ding ding! So what is L.A.W? Well during 1999 DC decided that it was time for those squares in the JLA to stand aside and give the Charleton Heroes a shot at things! Yeah it was a "major" threat that was written that could defeat the JLA, but was set up so this bland of plucky under dog heroes could beat.(It was a trick that Grant Morrison would use to the same effect in Seven Soldiers. And frankly I think it sucked then and it sucks in L.A.W.) Oh it stands for Living Assault Weapons. And it means that a number of the issues have titles which are terrible puns on the word law, like "Martial L.A.W" or "L.A.W......and Order!" So like I said, this series focused on the Charleton Heroes so the cast is made up of Blue Beetle (Ted Kord) The Question, Judomaster, Captain Atom, Peacemaker and Nightshade. Each issue has one of the cast on the cover. So it's going to be like Watchmen, only worse. So the series has all kinds of baffling changes and more or less completely ignores the Danny O' Neil Question series. That series had Vic become a kind of travelling Zen crime fighter who left his cesspool of a city after it broke him down. He then made a new life with his romantic interest and her child, who died in this incredibly hard to read story* (it was later retconed by Greg Rucka. Largely because I think he felt that it was just too drat bleak.) None of that is apparent in this series. It starts with Vic back working as a TV Reporter. He's reporting the news on the JLA getting their rear end kicked. Then at the end of the report storms back to Hub City to get some answers. Hub City in O' Neil's series was like Gotham during No Man's Land....all the time. Here it's just shown as basically a normal city. I also think this page is worth putting up, since I find it hilarious. I know the JLA are supposed to be reacting to the Moon Quake, but their speech panel makes them look like they are scared.  So some evil badguy called the Avatar is attacking military places, sealing the JLA in forcefields, sucking Captain Atom into his sword (yeah the guy who is a big player in this story, spend most of it trapped.) Blue Bettle and Question (who are now best mates...for some reason) decide to team up. The Peace Project recruit Commander Steel and some guy called Peacemaker who has a awful costume. Then Nightshade gets introduced in a manner which features the greatest on page exorcism ever seen in comics.   Yeah that's the best way to exorcise a Sucubus. Rip off the girls clothes. Also bonus 90's points for including FATE! So the series then ends with the last member of the "team" Judomaster chilling in Nanda Parabat. He's basically told he has to go out into the world to atone for a past mistake in a manner of someone who won't tell the person what they've done wrong just to go out there and fix it. And so DC's version of Iron-fist goes out to rejoin the world and get his rear end kicked. And that's how issue 1 ends. I suppose the series isn't the worst thing ever. It just felt really retro and twee, even in the 90's. It's definitely not objectively bad, but I just wanted to pun around as it was the worst Question story I ever read, as it more or less ignored all the work Danny O' Neil had done with Vic.
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Aug 13, 2013 23:51
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The Question IRL posted:Yeah it was a "major" threat that was written that could defeat the JLA, but was set up so this bland of plucky under dog heroes could beat.(It was a trick that Grant Morrison would use to the same effect in Seven Soldiers. And frankly I think it sucked then and it sucks in L.A.W.) Man with opinions like that L.A.W may actually be a good book because c'mon.
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Aug 14, 2013 00:11
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Regardless of the quality of the comic as a whole, "I wonder what sort of wine goes best with Taco Bell?" is an amazing line 
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Aug 14, 2013 00:16
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GorfZaplen posted:Regardless of the quality of the comic as a whole, "I wonder what sort of wine goes best with Taco Bell?" is an amazing line It's best if you read it like Linkara. "I wonder WHAT SORT of wine goes BEST with TACO BELL?"
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Aug 14, 2013 00:18
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The Question IRL posted:
Fate could quality as a Worst Run all on his own. He's the XTREME 90's version of Dr. Fate. But is L.A.W. really worse than Extreme Justice?
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Aug 14, 2013 00:24
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Mr. Maltose posted:Man with opinions like that L.A.W may actually be a good book because c'mon. I straight up didn't like Seven Soldiers. And in particular how it ends was part of my problem with it. "Ha ha! This Faerie Queen has a spell on her that means she can only be killed by a team of exactly seven people. But any team that tries to fight her breaks down and they turn on each other. It's an unbeatable contradiction!" And then she's defeated in the most Cluedo esc, Rube Goldsberg type manner. And to make it worse, one of the team (I think it was Frankenstien) ended up doing something different that made it seem like he wasn't even a part of the team at all. And then the whole thing with Superman. Argh, just....I didn't like it. Random Stranger posted:Fate could quality as a Worst Run all on his own. He's the XTREME 90's version of Dr. Fate. It is and it isn't/ At it's worst, Extreme Justice has truely awful art and random deaths. But it also has gloriously dumb stuff like Amazing Man calling Maxima out on the fact that she is just fetishing him, or the series ending with the main villain making a dumb face or how Blue Bettle defeating a bunch of lame villains using some Spider-Man's webshoters*. L.A.W. doesn't have any of that. It's just dull. It's got a few few good bits which I'll post, and very few awful bits but nothing else. And really I guess that's what makes it bad. It plays it safe. It just not......EXTREME enough. (Jumps through a plate glass window while firing two pistols, wearing a trench coat and saying 'While Solo lives...TERROR DIES!') *= Spidey is of course committed to never making money off his webshooters. That's why he gave them to Ted Kord. No chance of any profit being turned by them.
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Aug 14, 2013 01:08
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Fate reminded me of the worst run of Dr. Strange. I can't accompany this with a huge set of images since I don't have digital copies of these issues (the Fantastic Four DVD is really handy), but I can give you the gist of it. So Dr. Strange is another one of those troubled characters. A lot of creators love the guy but very few are capable of doing him well. I've been told that everyone who goes to Marvel has a Dr. Strange pitch. If there's one character who I'd love to write at Marvel it's Dr. Strange. And yet he gets stuck with a lot of short, weak runs. For pointing out terrible runs there was the period in the sixties where they tried to superhero him up by giving him a face mask and secret identity (this will be important later). That was followed by a crazy period where people were trying to tell an epic story with him but the writers changed every single issue. Englehart was cool but he was kicked off the book right after Dr. Strange's wife screwed Benjamin Franklin (I did not make that up). There was the heavy metal Dr. Strange period in the mid-eighties where he was using black magic and turning evil. But the worst for me was when they decided to 90's him up and go the XTREME route. Quick, name your top three picks for Dr. Strange writers; the guys who you know would knock it out of the park if they got their hands on the book. I bet you named writers who were especially good with the fantastic, mystical, and epic. The kind of people who write urban fantasy that has a huge scope and wondrous things around every corner. The last guy you'd name, however, is David Quinn. Quinn, if you're not familiar with the name, is the creator of Faust (the comic, not the legendary figure who turned up in Marlowe and Goethe) and that gives you an idea of what went through editorial's mind when he was selected to write Dr. Strange when things were at a weak point. "Oh, he does magic stuff. Dr. Strange is perfect for him!" Except, of course, his magic is grim, brutal, violent, and unpleasant. Tonally, it's completely wrong for Dr. Strange. So Quinn comes on board during one those periods when Strange's powers have been stripped away because of the "too powerful" issue that lazy writers complain about. And this is what he does with that:  Now, I should say that I don't blame Quinn at all for what happened here. It's obviously that the problems with this period are all on the editorial side. They decided to turn Dr. Strange into a horror book and strip him of his powers and Quinn was the hatchet man for that job. When you approach things from that perspective, you can understand why they would pick him. But that doesn't turn this into a good run of comics. It's packed with all the 90's comics problems. See that "part 15" on the cover? That was Quinn's second issue which was part of one of those horrible, convoluted crossovers with a block of books that Marvel was doing at the time. The basic concept of the run was that Dr. Strange gets poisoned by a killer batwoman who wants the title of Sorcerer Supreme. Since he's stripped of all his abilities, he hands it over it over and hides outside of time to lick his wounds and recover. However, there's an XTREME superhero called Strange who shows up and beats people senseless while taking their mystical doodads. And a mysterious, evil businessman who looks just like Dr. Strange calling himself Victor Stevens that's doing evil things. It turns out that Dr. Strange split himself into three parts while he was recovering and the split personalities fight each other in a confusing and not very compelling storyline. All of this is set in yet another tearing down of the character. His house is destroyed again (I swear there's only one other house in the Marvel universe that gets destroyed more often than the Sactum Sanctorum), supporting characters are killed off, and the whole thing suffers from an unnecessary attempt to rebuild the character. The reason I single Quinn out over anyone else is that he had the longest of any bad Dr. Strange run. He went from issue 60 to 79. Nearly two years of this divided, depowered Dr. Strange storyline.
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Aug 14, 2013 02:51
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