|
Miltank posted:If you think that a butcher in a pig mask shooting a women in the gut and then raping her is normalizing rape you are dead wrong. If anything these depictions of rape are dangerous because they otherize the rapist too strongly. The vast majority of rapists know their victims personally. They also think everyone else rapes, and that makes it ok if they do it. I'm sure not talking about it will change that perception, though.
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2013 20:53
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 20, 2024 21:52 |
|
|
Miltank posted:If you think that a butcher in a pig mask shooting a women in the gut and then raping her is normalizing rape you are dead wrong. If anything these depictions of rape are dangerous because they otherize the rapist too strongly. The vast majority of rapists know their victims personally. I don't think that and I didn't make any sort of implication to that. All I said was that the media is good at normalizing rape.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2013 20:56
|
|
|
Theodyn posted:Were we talking about rape in this thread before the game brought it up? No. But it has now made us talk about it. Which is pretty ironic because Cara's moderator friends are deleting any and all comments that disagree with her perspective or remark on the way she's presented it. 
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2013 20:58
|
|
|
poptart_fairy posted:Which is pretty ironic because Cara's moderator friends are deleting any and all comments that disagree with her perspective or remark on the way she's presented it. Given how ~gamers~ tend to react to women saying anything at all in the videogame industry, I would be doing the same thing.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2013 21:00
|
|
|
And, similarly, doing nothing but making your case worse. E: Don't do this. Take that to The Media In General thread please. VVVV
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2013 21:01
|
|
|
Trainmonk posted:I don't think that and I didn't make any sort of implication to that. All I said was that the media is good at normalizing rape. Trainmonk posted:What they're really, really good at is normalizing rape and artificially darkening their writing of a character. What actual people are good at is discussing it, and they do it often with no help from movie rape #3059. Ok so you weren't referring to the media that we are discussing. How does media in general normalize rape then?
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2013 21:01
|
|
|
RBA Starblade posted:They also think everyone else rapes, and that makes it ok if they do it. I'm sure not talking about it will change that perception, though. How exactly does one get "Well this deranged, hosed up, and generally BAD person rapes. Totes gonna do this now!" from this, without being already hosed up themselves? I can't imagine it being presented as anything other than 100% wrong, specifically to make the player uneasy for watching their own avatar (ie. themselves) simulating these acts. If anything, what I think the player is intended to feel is relief that it wasn't real, after the disgust while they thing it IS real. EDIT: Thanks for noticing my oversight, fixed. Serperoth fucked around with this message at 21:06 on Aug 15, 2013 |
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2013 21:02
|
|
|
Trainmonk posted:I don't think that and I didn't make any sort of implication to that. All I said was that the media is good at normalizing rape. This is true, but I don't think it's a good case for deciding that it's completely verboten to be put into media.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2013 21:03
|
|
|
Now you can have your rape fantasies and eat it too, all you have to do is post indignantly about it on a message board for a little while in order to convince yourself you're above such a thing.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2013 21:04
|
|
|
Serperoth posted:watching their own avatar (ie. themselves) performing these acts. Act Out Performing These Acts. He isn't actually raping anyone in the scene we've been introduced to. He's acting. I know in the broad strokes of things it doesn't matter too much, but I feel like we should get back to discussing what's actually in the game if we're going to be talking about this subject. Of course if you start raping people outside of that one context, all bets are off. That'd be pretty hosed and not helping the original point at all.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2013 21:04
|
|
|
dont worry guys its 'meta'
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2013 21:04
|
|
|
Mr. Unlucky posted:Now you can have your rape fantasies and eat it too, all you have to do is post indignantly about it on a message board for a little while in order to convince yourself you're above such a thing. 
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2013 21:05
|
|
|
Fag Boy Jim posted:This is true, but I don't think it's a good case for deciding that it's completely verboten to be put into media. Nope, I clearly said that everyone is free to be as terrible as they want with their "artistic vision".
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2013 21:05
|
|
|
Trainmonk posted:Nope, I clearly said that everyone is free to be as terrible as they want with their "artistic vision". Your position seems to still be that all fictionalized depictions of rape are unambiguously bad, regardless of their context.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2013 21:06
|
|
|
Miltank posted:Ok so you weren't referring to the media that we are discussing. How does media in general normalize rape then? I don't understand what you want me to tell you. You want me to explain what normalization is?
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2013 21:06
|
|
|
Fag Boy Jim posted:Your position seems to still be that all fictionalized depictions of rape are unambiguously bad, regardless of their context. Unless it's a fictitious example of rape in like a textbook, yeah that's basically how I feel.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2013 21:07
|
|
|
Holepunchio posted:I think a lot of you are missing the point. I believe its already established that yes, the player character does things to make you feel uncomfortable and no, you don't like hurting people. You might like the rush and the fun and the powertrip at times but the extreme violence is meant to be offputting. Making your character a rapist is certainly one way of making them offputting. I agree, I think Hotline Miami would be really interesting if there was a fem-jacket running around, and I kind of have this weird reading that the stuff like the director telling the actress "to be more helpless or girly," might hint to something like that possibly being the case. Maybe wishful thinking.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2013 21:09
|
|
|
Someone asked about the soundtrack earlier: I think, as far as what's been confirmed, most of the original artists are putting in new tracks (or tracks they've already created, just weren't in the first) this time around, and one of the devs was wearing a band shirt that people got hyped about. Unless someone as more information, which, if that's the case, hit me up. Love this soundtrack.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2013 21:09
|
|
|
I remember reading the same thing in the morning, then looking at this thread and thinking "huh, 0 replies". Now it's evening, I check the thread, see 90 replies and I immediately know that a.) this thread is probably unreadable for a while and b.) HM2 is probably enjoying a lot of free publicity.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2013 21:10
|
|
|
Trainmonk posted:Unless it's a fictitious example of rape in like a textbook, yeah that's basically how I feel. What do you mean "fictitious"? I mean, obviously a depicted rape in fiction "actually happened" diegetically (unless it's like, a dream sequence or something), but we still understand diegesis in fiction to be fictitious, don't we?
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2013 21:11
|
|
|
Fag Boy Jim posted:What do you mean "fictitious"? I mean, obviously a depicted rape in fiction "actually happened" diegetically (unless it's like, a dream sequence or something), but we still understand diegesis in fiction to be fictitious, don't we? What the hell is wrong with you, that is way beyond the point.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2013 21:12
|
|
|
Trainmonk posted:What the hell is wrong with you, that is way beyond the point. Whatever point you're trying to make isn't coming across, because your use of "fictitious" is confusing.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2013 21:13
|
|
|
Fag Boy Jim posted:Whatever point you're trying to make isn't coming across, because your use of "fictitious" is confusing. Somebody making up an example of rape for demonstrative presentation in a textbook format. Come on dude.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2013 21:15
|
|
|
No it's not? He's talking about a rape as depicted in a textbook, free of any narrative setting or greater context than "this is what rape is, no names have been used to protect the innocent". This is getting pretty out of hand.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2013 21:15
|
|
|
Babe Magnet posted:No it's not? He's talking about a rape as depicted in a textbook, free of any narrative setting or greater context than "this is what rape is, no names have been used to protect the innocent". This is getting pretty out of hand. yeah, sorry about the descent into semantics, I was just personally confused.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2013 21:20
|
|
|
polish sausage posted:I agree, I think Hotline Miami would be really interesting if there was a fem-jacket running around, and I kind of have this weird reading that the stuff like the director telling the actress "to be more helpless or girly," might hint to something like that possibly being the case. Maybe wishful thinking. I have to second the wishful thinking, but I also second the suggestion of a playable female and just some diversity in the enemies. Putting men and women on the same level of hunter and fodder rather than, I dunno, having an entire gender represented as "damsel in distress", or "strong independent woman who don't need no man", or something else cringeworthy.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2013 21:21
|
|
|
Trainmonk posted:I don't understand what you want me to tell you. You want me to explain what normalization is? I guess I want you to explain what you think normalization means and then explain how it applies in the way that you used it.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2013 21:31
|
|
|
toasterwarrior posted:I'm not sure about that either: everyone in the series thus far is basically a flat character thanks to how minimalist (or deliberately obfuscating, in the case of the janitors) the treatment of their personalities are. Jacket is an insane serial killer, Biker is an unrepentant lover of violence but is sane enough to know something's up...that's it really. If it's a question of representation in agency, then yeah, sure; but as it is you could gender-swap everyone and it would still play out the same. Cocaine Cowboys is instant on netflix by the way, go watch it!
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2013 21:32
|
|
|
Miltank posted:I guess I want you to explain what you think normalization means and then explain how it applies in the way that you used it. Are you trying to find an argument of mine to pick apart? If you really want to discuss something with me, let's make it my actual focus; this game.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2013 21:39
|
|
|
Holepunchio posted:Maybe if women too got to be serial killer or nameless goons or evil mastermind, it could slide. Right now the depiction of women in the series is objectively, poo poo. I thought the point of the first game, especially the fly room chats was "This is terrible, and you're a terrible person for enjoying it." It was Ichi the Killer: the game, including the audience-surrogate swap.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2013 21:41
|
|
|
StevenM posted:I have to second the wishful thinking, but I also second the suggestion of a playable female and just some diversity in the enemies. Putting men and women on the same level of hunter and fodder rather than, I dunno, having an entire gender represented as "damsel in distress", or "strong independent woman who don't need no man", or something else cringeworthy. Definitely. In my ideal, I'm imagining the same jacket we all know and love but just female. The ripley treatment basically. I really like the saints row games because they basically just take this approach, and it works really well. Fem boss (especially in saints row 2) had this really cool edge to her that didn't come off liked forced "feminism is over!" bullshit mostly because the script is written pretty much the same throughout all voices. The voice acting definitely helped as well. Of course, I don't believe that this is the end all be all solution to a problem like this for women in games/media in general, but for this game, where the whole point seems to be poking at male power fantasy, I would say it would be an interesting statement if it forced you to play as a women. It would at least be a step up from the girlfriend and token russian chick in my opinion. ^^^both of the janitors were based off of the two developers, who are both male.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2013 21:42
|
|
|
Trainmonk posted:Unless it's a fictitious example of rape in like a textbook, yeah that's basically how I feel. Have you ever considered the notion that your singular repulsion to the concept of rape and its depiction is precisely why media and stories should and sometimes need to use it? It evokes concepts and emotions that a spirited argument or a gunfight can't. It can be used cheaply or salaciously (like consensual sex, or non-sexual violence) and it might be here, but the idea that there's no such thing as a justifiable depiction of it is betrayed by the severity of your own response. Unless you think media and art has a responsibility not to shock, upset, or horrify people which... I dunno. I guess that's a coherent position, but I think it's a pretty depressing one. Hotline Miami was also partly inspired by Drive, and I think it's fair to say Nicolas Winding Refn's oeuvre is problematic. Also great, but it's worth mentioning 
Baku fucked around with this message at 21:45 on Aug 15, 2013 |
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2013 21:43
|
|
|
Zombies' Downfall posted:Have you ever considered the notion that your singular repulsion to the concept of rape and its depiction is precisely why media and stories should and sometimes need to use it? It evokes concepts and emotions that a spirited argument or a gunfight can't. It can be used cheaply or salaciously (like consensual sex, or non-sexual violence) and it might be here, but the idea that there's no such thing as a justifiable depiction of it is betrayed by the severity of your own response. My repulsion comes from the way it hurts people, not the feelings of discomfort. As far as I'm concerned, depictions of rape are careless, hurtful, ignorant aggressions towards innocent people.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2013 21:45
|
|
|
Closet Cyborg posted:
I don't think this is the point- and if it is, it isn't a very good one, because the reasonable response would be that the developers are the ones responsible for making the audience enjoy the game; the violence is alluring because they attached it to a mechanically thrilling game. So if the point was "You're terrible for enjoying this", it's undercut by the fact that it wouldn't be enjoyable if the game wasn't fun to play (see: Spec Ops The Line).
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2013 21:47
|
|
|
Trainmonk posted:careless, hurtful, ignorant aggressions towards innocent people. So,...Hotline Miami? I don't know, I've always been taught not to try to compare miseries. rape is bad. Killing is bad.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2013 21:48
|
|
|
Trainmonk posted:My repulsion comes from the way it hurts people, not the feelings of discomfort. As far as I'm concerned, depictions of rape are careless, hurtful, ignorant aggressions towards innocent people. The same can be said about depictions of murder, theft, robbery, or basically any sort of abuse at all, and more. Similar to how a piece of media can depict murder in a tasteful, thought-provoking manner, as well as a completely careless, hurtful and ignorant one, it's possible that a piece of media can depict rape in a tasteful, thought-provoking manner, and contribute to the elimination of ACTUAL instances of it.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2013 21:50
|
|
|
MadBimber posted:So,...Hotline Miami? ??? Rape has victims that are actually alive. And if you're triggered by killing in killing games then I guess you made a really loving dumb purchase. e: ^^^ same to that guy
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2013 21:51
|
|
|
Fag Boy Jim posted:I don't think this is the point- and if it is, it isn't a very good one, because the reasonable response would be that the developers are the ones responsible for making the audience enjoy the game; the violence is alluring because they attached it to a mechanically thrilling game. So if the point was "You're terrible for enjoying this", it's undercut by the fact that it wouldn't be enjoyable if the game wasn't fun to play (see: Spec Ops The Line). I don't think it is fair to criticize a work of art for succeeding technically within its medium. The focus of Hotline was "you do these things because you are told to, you keep doing them because you like it." Edit:^^ So if the game contains a warning for sexual violence you wouldn't have any problem with it? I can definitely agree with that.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2013 21:54
|
|
|
Trainmonk posted:??? That's why I specifically said "basically any sort of abuse at all". Physical abuse also has victims that are actually alive, and so does mental abuse, and others. If we forbid depictions of rape, it makes sense to also forbid depictions of people hitting other people, unless they kill them as well, or at least that's what I'm getting from what you're saying.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2013 21:54
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 20, 2024 21:52 |
|
|
"This [male] character is the badmans because he rapes/raped a woman" is such a lovely, overused trope in general. I get that they're trying to  parody it in this, but that whole plot device should just die quietly and never be brought up again. I suppose it's important to ask if the game explains the film setting before this scene? It wouldn't excuse it entirely, but it would at least introduce the horrible director's intentions beforehand.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2013 21:55
|
|
