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Daktar posted:One thing I always wondered about The Player of Games was whether Shohobohaum Za, the Culture ambassador was actually Zakalwe. Their names are superficially similar, and it's mentioned that Za doesn't have drug glands. By the end of the book, Za is leading a rebellion against the remnants of the Azadian bureaucracy, something only an experienced soldier and commander could do. It's also revealed that he was never actually in the Culture and that he was just an outside contractor. True, he doesn't act much like Zakalwe, but as we know, Zakalwe is very good at playing a role. I like this, but I think it's more likely that the Culture just has more than one Zakalwe-type person going around in SC.
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Aug 15, 2013 09:05
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Seldom Posts posted:We've had this conversation in the thread before, but I don't see how POG presents the Culture as good guys. They completely manipulate and tear down Gurgeh, using him as an agent to essentially genocide the Azad. They may not be as bad as the Azad, but they're not good guys. Not exactly genocide. They knock out the batshit insane leadership of an awful empire that commits actual genocide. Presumably most of the people just find themselves under a more Cultured  rebel government.I always wonder if Azad really was as awful as it seemed. Keep in mind that SC played the whole thing from start to finish. Everything the drone whose name I forget showed Gurgeh could have been carefully selected from within an empire of trillions. I mean he basically searches out the most depressing neighbourhood he can find and gives a tour. The island retreat with instruments made of critics makes it clear that no, it's really a terrible place. But still, when you have a whole civilisation to pick from, you see why it reflects what the Culture might experience in a society like ours so well. Almost everything Gurgeh sees could probably be found somewhere in the modern world and shown to an SC agent to convince him we really need overthrowing. And they might not be wrong. Reveal yourselves, dammit! 
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Aug 15, 2013 09:13
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I have to agree that the Azad Empire is shown as pretty much the worst civilisation as far as needless cruelty goes, but the same is shown of the Affront, except the Affront have slightly better PR in that they are cheerfully boisterously cruel, while Azad doesn't actually seem to take any real pleasure from the cruelty except to say 'look how cruel we are'. The Affront also have one of the main characters of Excession who actually likes them and we get his semi-insider's persepctive as a longtime embedded Contact agent. Fivetide is actually one of my favourite characters from Excession after rereading it a few times.
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Aug 15, 2013 14:16
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I always thought the Culture had a pretty strong dose of ambiguity as far as being the good guys went. Their intentions and ideals were fine, but they were willing to use just about any means to accomplish their goals. Tolerating the existence and actions of a group like Special Circumstances speaks volumes, as does fighting the Idiran War and concluding that it was eventually justified because it wound up (over a sufficiently large time span) saving more lives than it cost.
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Aug 15, 2013 17:43
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^ Not to mention their use of a weapon that's explicitly designed to cause pain and fear to take out the Chelgrian conspirators in Look to Windward. Even Skaffen-Amtiskaw, for all he's very funny and charming takes out the bandits that attacked him and Diziet Sma in an incredibly brutal way, and he seems to positively revel in it.
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Aug 15, 2013 17:58
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Daktar posted:One thing I always wondered about The Player of Games was whether Shohobohaum Za, the Culture ambassador was actually Zakalwe. Their names are superficially similar, and it's mentioned that Za doesn't have drug glands. By the end of the book, Za is leading a rebellion against the remnants of the Azadian bureaucracy, something only an experienced soldier and commander could do. It's also revealed that he was never actually in the Culture and that he was just an outside contractor. True, he doesn't act much like Zakalwe, but as we know, Zakalwe is very good at playing a role. He also has a strong appreciation for alcohol, radical combat skills and (I think) is bald. This really stood out to me too.
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Aug 15, 2013 18:15
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I was going to counter that Za seems too flamboyant to be Zakalwe, but then I remembered that whole thing about pretending to be Mr. Staberinde in Solotol, so that kinda shoots that down. Instead I think the biggest evidence they're different characters is that Dizzy and Skaffen are pretty obviously Zakalwe's handlers, and there's no hint of them in Player of Games. It's not an airtight case, but Use of Weapons makes it pretty clear that the Culture has lots of mercenaries.
Lasting Damage fucked around with this message at 18:45 on Aug 15, 2013 |
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Aug 15, 2013 18:36
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He is called Za, though. I'd never considered it before, but that doesn't seem like the kind of thing Banks would have done by accident.
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Aug 15, 2013 19:14
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Daktar posted:^ Not to mention their use of a weapon that's explicitly designed to cause pain and fear to take out the Chelgrian conspirators in Look to Windward. Even Skaffen-Amtiskaw, for all he's very funny and charming takes out the bandits that attacked him and Diziet Sma in an incredibly brutal way, and he seems to positively revel in it. In Surface Detail, the race of Culture wannabes claim that THEY are largely responsible for the "Don't gently caress with the Culture" meme.
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Aug 15, 2013 19:35
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Avulsion posted:In Surface Detail, the race of Culture wannabes claim that THEY are largely responsible for the "Don't gently caress with the Culture" meme. Yeah, and look how that turns out for them.
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Aug 15, 2013 19:53
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Daktar posted:^ Not to mention their use of a weapon that's explicitly designed to cause pain and fear to take out the Chelgrian conspirators in Look to Windward. Even Skaffen-Amtiskaw, for all he's very funny and charming takes out the bandits that attacked him and Diziet Sma in an incredibly brutal way, and he seems to positively revel in it. It's been a while, but isn't it more amoral than actually enjoying it? Like it kills the attackers in the quickest, most efficient way. It's just the quickest way just happens to involve hilarious amounts of gore.
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Aug 15, 2013 21:27
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Daktar posted:^ Not to mention their use of a weapon that's explicitly designed to cause pain and fear to take out the Chelgrian conspirators in Look to Windward. Even Skaffen-Amtiskaw, for all he's very funny and charming takes out the bandits that attacked him and Diziet Sma in an incredibly brutal way, and he seems to positively revel in it. I always saw Skaffen's (and Demeisen's in Surface Detail) satisfaction as a kind of pride in performing their purpose in the most efficient, effective or elegant way. The same way for example a conductor might feel orchestrating a symphony, or a racing motorcycle would feel being razzed around the Nürburgring, had it been provided with the ability to feel in the first place. That in Skaffen's case, this purpose is the annihilation of living beings is sort of beside the point, to Skaffen, its just a job well done. The alternative, to equip a killer robot with a conscience that impeded its purpose of killing, seems a little perverse. Also, in Surface Detail the point is made that the Culture's real citizens are the Minds and ships- killing a human or a drone is frowned upon but not the end of the world, as it were.
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Aug 15, 2013 22:05
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I don't know, I think there's sufficient evidence across multiple books to suggest that a number of the Culture's military machine citizens take a perverse pleasure in causing pain. A few examples: In Use of Weapons during the flashback when Skaffen-Amtiskaw cuts loose its fields are described as being a pleasurable rosy-red. And then when Sma tears a strip off it for being so violent, its comes off insincere and even defensive. It seems less ashamed for being behaving monstrously, and more for upsetting Sma. In Player of Games at the end when the Emperor tries to kill Jernau, Flere-Imsaho apparently reflects the Emperor's laser back at him to drill him in the forehead, probably needlessly if the mirror field had no trouble stopping the shot. Also when it was masquerading as a declawed SC drone, it tortured small animals. This may have been an act, but I suspect this is closer to its real personality than the whiny library drone that fussed over Jernau at Azad. In Excession, the Killing Time's petty suicide run to get back at the Attitude Adjuster. It doesn't simply kill the other ship, it uses its effectors to force it to use its own engine fields to violently lobotomize itself, before eventually executing it mercifully. The Falling Outside the Normal Moral Constraints is definitely a perverse fucker too: Remember when its first introduced its controlling a man as an avatar to subject him to all manner of horrifying poo poo before wiping his memory. I think this is a common trait amongst military craft and drones in the Culture, but its managed so to speak. Like giving your sociopaths something constructive to do so they don't act like monsters domestically. I'm definitely not arguing that's the only way to interpret things. I'm sure most of these individuals (except maybe FOTNMC) are otherwise decent, but have a vicious streak.
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Aug 15, 2013 22:38
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Turminder Xuss (Anaplian's Combat Drone in Matter) seemed to enjoy the odd spot of violence as well - He has to be ordered several times not to just wipe out the army's nobles in the prologue, and he's very trigger happy when they're in the Shellworld. The thing is, having pacifistic combat minds and Minds is a bit of an oxymoron. If violence has to be done, you don't want them thinking twice - you want it over with hard, fast, and with the minimum of fuss. I'd argue that's the case for at least Skaffen-Amtiskaw and Flere-Imsaho. The Minds' actions were definitely unnecessary, though. Still, the reward they usually get is being treated with immense suspicion and distaste by their peers in the Culture (the other Minds refer to FOTNMC several times as 'thing'). Which I think is a little hypocritical and unfair. Barry Foster fucked around with this message at 23:19 on Aug 15, 2013 |
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Aug 15, 2013 23:16
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Lasting Damage posted:I don't know, I think there's sufficient evidence across multiple books to suggest that a number of the Culture's military machine citizens take a perverse pleasure in causing pain. A few examples: I really like that about the Culture's military entities; they aren't just these awesome, noble Mary Sues. They are mean bastards that don't just wield weapons, but actually are used as weapons (  ).
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Aug 15, 2013 23:41
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fookolt posted:I really like that about the Culture's military entities; they aren't just these awesome, noble Mary Sues. They are mean bastards that don't just wield weapons, but actually are used as weapons ( Oh I get it now. Edit: vvvv Oh now I get it Strom Cuzewon fucked around with this message at 23:51 on Aug 15, 2013 |
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Aug 15, 2013 23:46
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Not to mention that SC is apparently perfectly happy to use a weapon like Zakalwe -- again, and again, and again.
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Aug 15, 2013 23:49
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Barry Foster posted:If violence has to be done, you don't want them thinking twice - you want it over with hard, fast, and with the minimum of fuss. I'd argue that's the case for at least Skaffen-Amtiskaw and Flere-Imsaho. The Minds' actions were definitely unnecessary, though. Yeah, that's why I said it wasn't the only interpretation. I think its possible Flere-Imsaho (and maybe Terminder Xuss) in particular indulge because they think the victims really deserve it. Everyone was just discussing about how the Culture clearly held all of Azadian society in contempt, and I think that was truest of all for Flere-Imsaho.
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Aug 16, 2013 00:15
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I was actually thinking about Azadian society, and how some people thought they were too cartoonishly, unrealistically evil. It's true that to our liberal, western eyes they do seem excessive - we prefer to cloak the mass brutality of our global capitalist system with euphemisms about freedom and progress - but Azad is actually a pretty good guess at what a fully established and codified fascist society would look like. They've got the strict, unbending devotion to hierarchy and tradition and the obsession with pomp and circumstance. They've got the rampant xenophobia - they consider the inhabitants of newly conquered worlds to be literal animals, and slaughter and torture them while genuinely believing it's the right thing to do. They have the same worship and fetishisation of violence - and obviously there are too many examples of that to name. They basically fill all the criteria for what makes a society fascist. So yeah - I don't actually think they're too unrealistic at all, and I think that makes them scarier.
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Aug 16, 2013 10:32
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The one thing that struck me as a bit over the top at first were the snuff channels, but now that I think about it it's not even that far off from reality in our world. Just go to a random porn streaming website and look at how much depraved stuff is on there, from incest to simulated rape to violence. Humans seem to get off on that more than we'd like to think about, and snuff does exist, so it's not that much of a leap that the people in power would organise it and make it easily available to themselves. There's a thread in GBS about a guy loving a cat, people have been banned from these forums for being into gore and I don't know what else. What if those people held the reigns in a society like the Azad? It's a pretty believable logical conclusion of a society whose ruling class are both depraved and in absolute power, and have been able to indulge themselves unchecked for I don't know how many generations. The Azad as a race/people weren't shown to be corrupt but the system (and its products) were, which was the very reason SC got involved. e: And as others have said, open up a history book and pretty much everything the Azad do that horrify us were done by us many times over. e2: Spoilered it, just in case. e3: Checking out Snopes.com, I fear I might be mistaken about (evidence of) snuff films actually existing but still, it's not that far off the mark when you consider the amounts of simulated content out there. Why settle for anything less than real when you've got absolute power and a depraved mind? Taeke fucked around with this message at 13:12 on Aug 16, 2013 |
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Aug 16, 2013 13:03
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Or even closer to our society. If you're a drone with access to absolutely everything and intending to shock an agent into doing his job on Earth, it's totally possible you could dig through the internet to find a snuff film and present it as the kind of awful stuff made available to anyone well off enough to have the internet and the time. It would be twisting the truth beyond recognition but it would get the job done. Gurgeh sees enough first had that we know it isn't, but there's still a huge amount of stuff that, if Flere had cherry picked it, we would be none the wiser.
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Aug 16, 2013 14:51
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Lasting Damage posted:Yeah, that's why I said it wasn't the only interpretation. I think its possible Flere-Imsaho (and maybe Terminder Xuss) in particular indulge because they think the victims really deserve it. Everyone was just discussing about how the Culture clearly held all of Azadian society in contempt, and I think that was truest of all for Flere-Imsaho. I've always thought this was the case. The culture tries so drat hard not to be assholes and kill people that when they are forced to it is either because of a tragedy or because the victims are such reprehensible cunts that they deserve it. On a related note, I'm reading Excession again and the 'po faced' GCU Wisdom Like Silence mentions the Azadian matter when laying down the procedures for dealing with the excession, suggesting that there was quite a bit of fallout following their intervention. I love the theory about Zakalwe being that drunk diplomat; it certainly fits his modus operandi. It's a shame we can't ask the man himself about it 
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Aug 16, 2013 23:15
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gender illusionist posted:I've always thought this was the case. The culture tries so drat hard not to be assholes and kill people that when they are forced to it is either because of a tragedy or because the victims are such reprehensible cunts that they deserve it.
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Aug 17, 2013 00:04
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Lex Talionis posted:Ideologically Banks was very much against torture and although I don't know for sure, I'm guessing he was against capital punishment even for the most serious crimes, so it's interesting that there's an undercurrent throughout his work of despicable figures getting tortured and killed. I can't find the link but I think back in the old usenet days someone pointed out this happens once a book, calling the obligatory deadly violence (except it couldn't have been that exactly because Google isn't finding it). Usually there's a degree of separation between the narrative and the violence, allowing the viewpoint character to act as reader surrogate and wring their hands about it (i.e. Sma feeling revulsion after Skaffen Amtiskaw gets medieval on some people). I like Banks but it's always struck me as a little hypocritical. The thing is, it's not necessarily hypocritical. The Culture acts within the specifications of the culture it's interacting with. Skaffen-Amtiskaw straight up fillets the band of murders and rapists, but it doesn't take its time bursting their eyeballs or flayling them alive. That particular display of violence would, presumably, make the most impression on that particular culture. I'm reminded of the moment in Matter when Turminder Xuss wants to literally decapitate the army - it's the best and most effective solution at that point. It might've saved lives, too. It's worth noting that the punishment for murder within the Culture is to be slap-droned; basically, to be eternally and shamefully scrutinised. If the Culture applied that stricture to the Emperor of Azad, for instance, that'd do gently caress-all to change their horrible society. I think it's to his credit that Banks doesn't shy away from political violence - he's smart enough to realise that any societal ideology is going to require violence somewhere down the line. Barry Foster fucked around with this message at 01:04 on Aug 17, 2013 |
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Aug 17, 2013 01:02
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Barry Foster posted:The thing is, it's not necessarily hypocritical. The Culture acts within the specifications of the culture it's interacting with. It's a weird contradiction. Perhaps Zakalwe's "You might think they're a little soft" speech from the beginning of Use of Weapons reflects a genuine uncertainty in Banks' mind about whether the bleeding heart left is strong enough to cope with the evils in the world...perhaps there's more ambiguity in Banks' work about this than I'm remembering. But when I think about Banks and torture I think of Veppers in Surface Detail, where a huge chunk of the book goes into associating torture with someone who is a complete sociopath. There's no "There but for the grace of God go I" to Veppers, no suggestion that in wanting to see him suffer for what he's done both Y'breq and most readers are sinking down towards his level, he's just a monster for the reader to root against.
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Aug 17, 2013 03:45
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I guess what I'm saying is that almost none of Banks' 'good guys' (in want of a better word - almost always Culture citizens though) torture people. They murder the poo poo out of them, but they don't prolong it or make it cruel or unusual. The one exception I can think of when it comes to vicarious exultation in torture is at the end of Look to Windward, when the nanobots brutally, cruelly flay and gut alive the Chelgrians. That was horrific - but then, it was so excessive that I think Banks was definitely trying to make a point about enjoying comeuppance.
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Aug 17, 2013 11:36
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And even that had a purpose: it was made sure that it was all recorded on Chelgrian camera. They were playing the torture to an audience.
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Aug 17, 2013 15:40
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Lex Talionis posted:Sorry, I was trying to say I thought Banks, not the Culture, was being just a little bit hypocritical. My problem with Banks is that he writes scenes of villains getting brutal comeuppance because we as readers (and perhaps him as the author) will exult in it. But at the same time the principal justification within the narrative for the villainy of those getting said comeuppance is usually that they exult in torture! I think the Banksian argument against this point of view is that the executions carried out by the Culture have been demonstrated to be the least harm solution by the calculations of the Minds? Any brutality is a necessary part of the omniscient Mind's equations and has been democratically agreed by committee as the best way forwards etc. I can think of three characters that indulge in entirely unsanctioned and wanton violence, rather than as a flair or finesse while carrying out a task connected with their task: In the Player Of Games Flere Imsaho tortures animals, we're told that it's a malfunctioning drone and has been kicked out of SC for being a total sadist. Its complicity in the rest of the story, demonstrating that he can follow the Culture's script, is its trial for returning to SC In Excession, the GCU Grey Area floats around torturing war criminals ad hoc becoming a legendary pariah in the Culture as a consequence and the Falling Outside the Normal Moral Constraints from Surface Detail, who is well on the way to pariah status too.
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Aug 17, 2013 18:38
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Endjinneer posted:I think the Banksian argument against this point of view is that the executions carried out by the Culture have been demonstrated to be the least harm solution by the calculations of the Minds? Any brutality is a necessary part of the omniscient Mind's equations and has been democratically agreed by committee as the best way forwards etc. Except the whole point of Look to Windward is that, as hyper-intelligent as they are, they still gently caress up. Plus there's Surface Detail which, to me, is less about Hell and the comically evil antagonists and more about the Culture's unrelenting cultural imperialism and willingness to lie, murder, warmonger, and break treaties to further their own vision of society. The Culture's a nice place to live but they aren't really the unqualified "good guys." EDIT: Also I seriously doubt Flere-Imsaho was ever out of Special Circumstances. It's just a cover story.
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Aug 17, 2013 19:13
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Except the whole point of Look to Windward is that, as hyper-intelligent as they are, they still gently caress up. This to me is also the point of Excession which I read much later. I don't think you can justify much on the basis of infallible Minds--they seem to still suffer from the same flaws as their creators.
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Aug 18, 2013 01:50
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They know they gently caress up, but they know that their success rate is high enough that if they didn't do what they do, the galaxy and the lives of people would be, on the whole, a much worse place. The occasional gently caress up is to them more than counterbalaced out.
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Aug 18, 2013 04:22
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:EDIT: Also I seriously doubt Flere-Imsaho was ever out of Special Circumstances. It's just a cover story. Which makes the animal torture just part of a cover story. Whose idea was that, and is it that big of an issue in the culture ? Maybe killing a non sentient humanely isn't consider immoral, just tasteless. Some drones do consider themselves above the meatbags, despite being at a nominal 1.0 standard with humans, or as close as an AI can get. The personalities seem to match. I just read Stonemouth. It's a drat good novel. It also has some elements of violence, torture and intimidation which I'm going to ponder some more and then try and relate it to the Culture books.
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Aug 18, 2013 08:23
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Avulsion posted:In Surface Detail, the race of Culture wannabes claim that THEY are largely responsible for the "Don't gently caress with the Culture" meme. I actually interpreted that as self delusion on their part. There was that part at the end of Look to Windward with the E-Dust assassin, which sounded like technology too advanced for those Culture-wannabes to have been responsible for. Not to mention that the Falling Outside The Normal Moral Constraints almost effortlessly obliterated a bunch of their ships in something like half a second, which makes them seem a little too weak to have been beating up anyone who hosed with the culture. Tuxedo Catfish posted:Except the whole point of Look to Windward is that, as hyper-intelligent as they are, they still gently caress up. Plus there's Surface Detail which, to me, is less about Hell and the comically evil antagonists and more about the Culture's unrelenting cultural imperialism and willingness to lie, murder, warmonger, and break treaties to further their own vision of society. Didn't the drone outright state that it had never left SC and that that was just a lie to manipulate Gurgeh? Otherwise I guess I just automatically assumed that part was a lie.
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Aug 18, 2013 09:15
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MikeJF posted:They know they gently caress up, but they know that their success rate is high enough that if they didn't do what they do, the galaxy and the lives of people would be, on the whole, a much worse place. The occasional gently caress up is to them more than counterbalaced out. Where is this assertion from? If it's the minds themselves making it, that would obviously be suspect.
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Aug 18, 2013 14:27
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Seldom Posts posted:Where is this assertion from? Quick, let's have that "What Are The Minds Really Up To" discussion
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Aug 19, 2013 12:49
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Seldom Posts posted:Where is this assertion from? That specific wording is never used that I know of, however in Look To Windward it's mentioned several times how apologetic the Culture is for loving up their interference, and how their stats back up them doing what they did, which amounts to the same thing. I believe Huyler points out that not one Culture person has considered reigning in Contact or SC, and that they are only sorry for what happened to the Chelgrians, not for the intereference itself. The average Culture person still supports them doing what they do, implying that they feel that Contact and SC are justified in their actions. Cluncho McChunk fucked around with this message at 14:52 on Aug 19, 2013 |
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Aug 19, 2013 14:50
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I've only read a few Culture books, but I really do like the way they establish that the Minds are very definitely the real Culture and panhumans are just (mostly-)tolerated tagalongs.
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Aug 19, 2013 14:51
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I would probably go with "beloved pets." EDIT: I forget which book it's from, possibly Look to Windward again, but one of the most telling scenes in the series is where a Hub mind tells a human that of course it cares for them, deeply, personally -- but also that it's capable of feeling this way about literally anyone and can also switch it off at will.
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Aug 19, 2013 15:07
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:I would probably go with "beloved pets." Yeah. They're 'members of the family'. You clean up after them, you feed them, let them go in and out of the house when they want, sigh in irritation when they knock over the vase. But you like to share their company, pet them when they want attention, and dammit they're just so cute sometimes. But occasionally its fun to get out the laser pointer and gently caress with them. So basically the humans are like cats in the Culture. Does this mean Hub Minds are their equivalent of crazy cat ladies?
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Aug 19, 2013 17:35
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Given that pan-humans and drones can join a group mind to become a Mind so I wouldn't put it in quite those terms.
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Aug 19, 2013 17:39
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