Trainchat - The failure of privatisation in the British Railway

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MrL_JaKiri: Sep 23, 2003; A bracing glass of carrot juice!

thehustler posted:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22700805

The case for and against renationalisation, posted today.

Guy on the bottom seems to be using total journeys as a measure of success, despite the fact that that can be driven by other things. Also he looks like a dick.

quote:

Between 1923 and 1947 the so-called Big Four government-supported firms ran the roost and journeys fell to about 1.2 billion by the onset of the Second World War.

Phew, I wonder why the number of people traveling by train decreased in the 1930's. It sounds like some kind of Great Depression of rail journey figures :confused:

# ? Aug 13, 2013 09:19

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# ? May 27, 2024 06:59

Jonnty: Aug 2, 2007; The enemy has become a flaming star!

MrL_JaKiri posted:

Phew, I wonder why the number of people traveling by train decreased in the 1930's. It sounds like some kind of Great Depression of rail journey figures

Using phrases like "government supported" shows these people have no idea about railway history and are just pulling stuff out of their arses to try and justify their views. The only involvement the government had was merging smaller companies together, and if they hadn't done that half of them would have gone bust after WWI and we'd have a much shitter network today. Sometimes it didn't even do that. These companies had complete corporate freedom within the regulations to close lines and reduce services and yet most of them could barely make a profit.

# ? Aug 13, 2013 19:20

penus de milo: Mar 9, 2002; CHAR CHAR

Comment is Free writer argues that the trains are better than ever, seemingly because the West Coast Main Line is pretty posh and the people running the most lucrative intercity lines have a bit of cash to throw around.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/aug/15/nostalgia-british-rail-trains-better

quote:

Forget the nostalgia for British Rail � our trains are better than ever
Passengers may be grumbling about the planned fare increases, but on balance rail privatisation has been a huge success

There is a weary predictability to the political choreography. Once again, it's revealed, commuter rail fares are rising above the rate of inflation, squeezing the cost of living still further for hard-pressed families. Ministers claim they checked bigger increases; the opposition pretends it would have done differently; passenger groups scream in pain; and the unions demand a return to state ownership.

This is one area where union conservatism strikes a chord with the British public, long sceptical over the supposed benefits of rail privatisation. Many regular users see it as little more than a modern-day train robbery, with fat cat bosses cramming passengers into carriages and creaming off vast profits from creaking services. Surveys show two-thirds of voters would happily see the railways renationalised, an idea being considered by Labour.

As so often, conventional wisdom is wrong. For all the defects of a rushed privatisation, rail has evolved into a privately run public transport system playing a critical and successful role in the economy. The reality could hardly be more different to perception: passenger numbers booming, productivity rising, the number of services soaring, and customer satisfaction at near-record highs. Even those hated fare rises are not all they seem.

Modern vision is clouded by misty-eyed nostalgia for lovely old trains that once trundled around our tracks. As we hurtle along in slick modern trains with Wi-Fi and friendly service, it is easy to forget the poor punctuality and filthy carriages in the dismal days of British Rail. It was crippled by decades of under-investment, driving up fares and driving away freight � but even Margaret Thatcher saw the sale of the railways as a step too far. It was left to her successor, who forced it through too fast with civil servants told to privatise "as soon as practicable" and ensure the process was irreversible.

As one former rail boss said, the plan was half-hearted and half-baked; it was so unloved even Lord Whitelaw, Thatcher's long-suffering deputy, opposed the idea. The result in political and financial terms was a disaster, symbolised by executives of three rolling-stock firms handed the most obscene profits on a plate. The architecture of privatisation was flawed � an attempt to impose models from other industries on a complex transport system � but the ambition to introduce competition and private capital was sound.

Two decades later, some � although far from all � of the kinks have been ironed out. There remain, for example, issues over inflated hidden subsidies handed to the train operating companies. And while public spending on the railways has soared, Network Rail remains wasteful and guilty of inadequate management yet its bosses take big bonuses. The transport secretary, Patrick McLoughlin, should have slammed their greed rather than supported them earlier this week.

But focus on the facts. When I travel from London to watch my football team, Everton, play at home, the average journey time to Liverpool is now 37 minutes quicker than when rail was privatised. This makes a difference on a trip that is now little more than two hours. There are also more options available for travel; on some major routes, more than twice as many trains are running. Britain has an additional 4,000 services a day, a rise of one-fifth that ensures the most frequent services among eight European nations tested by a consumer group. And we have the safest railways on the continent.

The ultimate test of any market is its popularity. Here again, rail can claim success despite intense competition from bus companies and budget airlines, which only took off in this country after rail privatisation. When the plan was first promoted, Britons took on average 11 train trips a year; now we take twice that number. Since the turn of the century freight traffic has risen substantially and passenger numbers have soared by 49% � far more than under those admired state-run services in France, Germany and the Netherlands. This means the level of subsidies per passenger has fallen while revenues to Whitehall have risen by more than �1bn.

Passengers grumble with justification over a maze-like ticketing system, yet these price variations have ensured rail companies can compete on longer journeys with rivals in the air and on the roads. So yes, the cost of some fares is now ridiculous; with travellers often stung by hideous sums for peak-time travel � but away from the headlines and cries of outrage, many fares and season tickets have fallen in real terms. One test on a price comparison website found journeys in Britain mostly cheaper than similar-length jaunts in France and Germany. Overall, the average price per passenger mile has risen only 4% in real terms over the past 15 years.

More investment, more competition and more pressure on the corporate fat cats are needed. But our focus should be on improved regulation, not a reversion to failed models; indeed, in many ways rail demonstrates the potential of a part-privatised public service at a time when such policies are causing concern in other sectors. Britain should, as with other national institutions, stop being dazzled by nostalgia, ignore the groans of vested interests and focus on keeping an unlikely success story on track.

He seems to argue that "more investment" wouild help, but has there been any investment? The already glacial pace of input from RoSCos and ToCs surely won't be helped by cutting subsidies and making them shoulder more costs?

# ? Aug 16, 2013 07:58

Bobstar: Feb 8, 2006; KartooshFace, you are not responding efficiently!

penus de milo posted:

Comment is Free writer argues that the trains are better than ever, seemingly because the West Coast Main Line is pretty posh and the people running the most lucrative intercity lines have a bit of cash to throw around.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/aug/15/nostalgia-british-rail-trains-better

He seems to argue that "more investment" wouild help, but has there been any investment? The already glacial pace of input from RoSCos and ToCs surely won't be helped by cutting subsidies and making them shoulder more costs?

He keeps using this word "competition". I do not think it means what he thinks it means.

# ? Aug 16, 2013 09:15

Bozza: Mar 5, 2004; "I'm a really useful engine!"

Read that article on the bus this morning and nearly threw my phone out the window in an angry rage.

One of the most ill informed pieces of writing I've read in a long time. I mean, using the loving West Coast Main Line as an example of how privatisation worked is just comedy loving gold.

I wish I could debate these knobheads in person.

# ? Aug 16, 2013 10:08

Venmoch: Jan 7, 2007; Either you pay me or I flay you alive... With my mind!

Tosspot on BBC News posted:

The solution to our current problems is not more state bungling, it is a return to diversity, competition and open markets.

I'm not entirely sure "Open Markets" and Railways are really compatible with each other. If I decide to visit my parents I can either travel First Great Western or First Great Western.

Open Market! :hfive:

As a side note. When you work for a Privatisation and Tax reform think tank, I'm going to treat everything you say with a large degree of skepticism.

# ? Aug 16, 2013 10:57

Rude Dude With Tude: Apr 19, 2007; Your President approves this text.

National rail (the glorious free market) carried 1156 million people in 2010-2011. State owned London Underground (a wholly owned subsidiary of TfL) carried 1171 million in the same period.

Using these figures we can see that private enterprise is not best for the railways as the free marketeers would expect them to outperform bungling state actors. Unless geographic location and railways being fixed assets have something to do with it in which case they should admit you can't have a free market at all.

In other words, suck it franchisees, full communism as my poorly made argument supports.

# ? Aug 16, 2013 11:55

coffeetable: Feb 5, 2006; TELL ME AGAIN HOW GREAT BRITAIN WOULD BE IF IT WAS RULED BY THE MERCILESS JACKBOOT OF PRINCE CHARLES

YES I DO TALK TO PLANTS ACTUALLY

Bozza posted:

Read that article on the bus this morning and nearly threw my phone out the window in an angry rage.

One of the most ill informed pieces of writing I've read in a long time. I mean, using the loving West Coast Main Line as an example of how privatisation worked is just comedy loving gold.

I wish I could debate these knobheads in person.

Tried emailing the Guardian and asking whether you couldn't do contribute a response piece?

e: actually I suppose the Network Rail PR department wouldn't be too happy with you for that

# ? Aug 16, 2013 11:59

thehustler: Apr 17, 2004; I am very curious about this little crescendo

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad posted:

National rail (the glorious free market) carried 1156 million people in 2010-2011. State owned London Underground (a wholly owned subsidiary of TfL) carried 1171 million in the same period.

Using these figures we can see that private enterprise is not best for the railways as the free marketeers would expect them to outperform bungling state actors. Unless geographic location and railways being fixed assets have something to do with it in which case they should admit you can't have a free market at all.

In other words, suck it franchisees, full communism as my poorly made argument supports.

Is this really a fair comparison, though? Obviously lots of people in London use the Tube because it's pretty much the only viable option.

Not saying I love franchising, by the way, just playing devils advocate.

# ? Aug 16, 2013 12:39

Sri.Theo: Apr 16, 2008

thehustler posted:

Is this really a fair comparison, though? Obviously lots of people in London use the Tube because it's pretty much the only viable option.

Not saying I love franchising, by the way, just playing devils advocate.

That was his exact point.

# ? Aug 16, 2013 14:23

thehustler: Apr 17, 2004; I am very curious about this little crescendo

Sri.Theo posted:

That was his exact point.

I appear to have had a satire/joke bypass today

# ? Aug 16, 2013 14:37

Bozza: Mar 5, 2004; "I'm a really useful engine!"

coffeetable posted:

Tried emailing the Guardian and asking whether you couldn't do contribute a response piece?

e: actually I suppose the Network Rail PR department wouldn't be too happy with you for that

Nobody wants to hear from anyone that actually knows anything. The closest we get to informed opinions in the popular press is Christian Woolmar.

Some of the trade press is better, Rail News for instance, but you're unlikely to see anything written in a proper newspaper by anybody that actually works in the industry.

I will give you an example of how privatisation causes loving nonsense: we have just specified a level crossing (yes I know...) to replace an existing non-compliant one. Network Rail are paying for it, so have gone for a low cost, staff operated barrier as it is only a freight line. A major freight operating company have basically kicked up a stink because they want a full automatic barrier.

The reason they want NR to provide this is because if the automatic crossing fails, NR pays the fines for delaying trains, however if the staffed crossing isn't opened in time because their shunter gets lost or fails to turn up, they pay the fines, so they are currently arguing that NR should shell out more money to lower the risk on their operations.

This will go round and round and round at great cost to the tax payer, not solve the issue (simply who will be paying for it) and cause major holdups to the scheme.

I have a similar issue which has actually gone to the court of arbitration with a TOC who are refusing to allow a bit of line be closed for similar reasons (though it's the right thing to do for the railway, and lowers the asset costs by ~�2m).

Basically, everybody in a capitalist system is out for themselves and all this does is create money for the lawyers and shaft the railway as a whole.

Interestingly, in both cases, members of staff from both companies agreed with what we were doing 'as railwaymen' but couldn't agree to it 'as a commercial business'. Says it all really.

# ? Aug 16, 2013 15:01

Renaissance Robot: Oct 10, 2010; Bite my furry metal ass

Something just occurred to me re. the electrification of the North West: for the short haul routes, are we going to get electric multiple units as a direct replacement for the lovely diesel coaches we have now, or use locomotives with non-powered carriages for everything? Or is new rolling stock acquisition not even on the table yet?

# ? Aug 20, 2013 17:36

Bozza: Mar 5, 2004; "I'm a really useful engine!"

Renaissance Robot posted:

Something just occurred to me re. the electrification of the North West: for the short haul routes, are we going to get electric multiple units as a direct replacement for the lovely diesel coaches we have now, or use locomotives with non-powered carriages for everything? Or is new rolling stock acquisition not even on the table yet?

Rolling stock cascade is the aim of the game. Think you're getting the 319s from Thameslink.

# ? Aug 20, 2013 17:44

Rude Dude With Tude: Apr 19, 2007; Your President approves this text.

lol 319s

# ? Aug 21, 2013 07:33

Bacon Terrorist: May 7, 2010; to ride eternal, shiny and chrome

THUNDERDOME LOSER 2022

319's look pretty sweet, then again I did work a 142 yesterday. It's impossible to write on one of those.

# ? Aug 21, 2013 08:58

Renaissance Robot: Oct 10, 2010; Bite my furry metal ass

Heh, Pacers.

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad posted:

lol 319s

They're basically exactly what we have now (185s I think), right down to the livery, but electric instead of diesel.

So, yeah. Technically a step up, but I'm still going to struggle with my bike.

# ? Aug 21, 2013 11:12

penus de milo: Mar 9, 2002; CHAR CHAR

I just did some googling and they look like the Northern Rail trains but with train seats instead of '60s bus-style benches, which frankly I'll take.

# ? Aug 21, 2013 12:09

Bacon Terrorist: May 7, 2010; to ride eternal, shiny and chrome

THUNDERDOME LOSER 2022

I'm working a pacer right now and I have got managed to get 4 bikes, 3 prams and a wheelchair on: I'm loving David Copperfield.

# ? Aug 21, 2013 12:31

Trin Tragula: Apr 22, 2005

Pretty drat impressive doing all that at once. Does he cuddle afterwards?

# ? Aug 21, 2013 13:14

Cancelbot: Nov 22, 2006; Canceling spam since 1928

In terms of rolling stock. Because I love :spergin:

about NVH (Noise, Vibration and Harshness) are there set standards that the trains must abide to so that they're not a bouncy, loud hellride?

For example - The Pendolino trains are fantastically quiet anywhere you sit in them. You only hear little thuds from the gaps or junctions. But the class 323's between Stockport and Manchester make that lovely electric "shifting" sound: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_3_kygNNRg

The class 175s that Arriva run are the quietest diesel trains on the inside that I've been on and I've already assumed that the designers of the Pacers decided that we don't need ears anyway.

# ? Aug 30, 2013 08:35

lets go swimming: Sep 6, 2012; EAT THE CHEESE, NICHOLSON!

Cancelbot posted:

In terms of rolling stock. Because I love about NVH (Noise, Vibration and Harshness) are there set standards that the trains must abide to so that they're not a bouncy, loud hellride?

Probably but I don't think they're all that stringent because Super Voyagers exist and they are terrible units.

# ? Aug 30, 2013 12:25

Brovine: Dec 24, 2011; Mooooo?

Today, I got to experience the "STOP ALL TRAINS" button on the DLR. They do stop pretty rapidly.

Unauthorised people on the track somewhere, apparently.

# ? Aug 30, 2013 19:59

goddamnedtwisto: Dec 31, 2004; If you ask me about the mole people in the London Underground, I WILL be forced to kill you; Fun Shoe

Brovine posted:

Today, I got to experience the "STOP ALL TRAINS" button on the DLR. They do stop pretty rapidly.

Unauthorised people on the track somewhere, apparently.

I used to go to school on the first batch of DLR rolling stock, which had inward-opening doors which - at the right speed and wind conditions - would believe they'd opened and slam the brakes on, almost inevitably right in the middle of the then-fastest section of track between Limehouse and Westferry. Lads from my school would try and position themselves up-train from attractive women so they could "help" them if it happened.

# ? Aug 30, 2013 22:14

Endjinneer: Aug 17, 2005; Fallen Rib

Cancelbot posted:

In terms of rolling stock. Because I love about NVH (Noise, Vibration and Harshness) are there set standards that the trains must abide to so that they're not a bouncy, loud hellride?

I remember stumbling across a standard describing allowable "transient air pressure changes within the carriage"- effectively how hard your ears can pop when the train goes through a tunnel. If that's been limited, I should think that carriage behaviour like sway, ride roughness and running noise would be too.

From a track point of view, bouncy, harder riding trains put more loads into the rails, track bed and structures and wear them out quicker. I did a walkout on Manchester Metrolink once, and you could see an oscillating wear pattern down the rail head where the rolling stock suspension had reached some sort of harmonic frequency.

# ? Sep 1, 2013 22:33

Bozza: Mar 5, 2004; "I'm a really useful engine!"

Endjinneer posted:

I remember stumbling across a standard describing allowable "transient air pressure changes within the carriage"- effectively how hard your ears can pop when the train goes through a tunnel. If that's been limited, I should think that carriage behaviour like sway, ride roughness and running noise would be too.

From a track point of view, bouncy, harder riding trains put more loads into the rails, track bed and structures and wear them out quicker. I did a walkout on Manchester Metrolink once, and you could see an oscillating wear pattern down the rail head where the rolling stock suspension had reached some sort of harmonic frequency.

This is one of those things that is best summed up with "it's really loving complicated" because I remember trying to understand how P1, P2, P3 track forces interact and cause track damage and my brain nearly melted.

The long and the short of it really is that unsprung weight = bad, stiff suspension provides better stability at high speed but crappy performance on curve, soft suspension curves better but becomes unstable at high speeds.

P-Way is hard.

# ? Sep 2, 2013 11:02

Brovine: Dec 24, 2011; Mooooo?

Bozza, OHLE related question: Just to the north of Coppermill Junction (Tottenham Hale --> Liverpool Street/Stratford), there are some strange spirals, balls and discs attached to the cables that run between the top outer corners of the overhead line masts. What are they for?

# ? Sep 2, 2013 22:09

Jonnty: Aug 2, 2007; The enemy has become a flaming star!

Brovine posted:

Bozza, OHLE related question: Just to the north of Coppermill Junction (Tottenham Hale --> Liverpool Street/Stratford), there are some strange spirals, balls and discs attached to the cables that run between the top outer corners of the overhead line masts. What are they for?

Do you mean this stuff? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overhead_line#Tensioning

# ? Sep 2, 2013 22:12

Brovine: Dec 24, 2011; Mooooo?

Jonnty posted:

Do you mean this stuff? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overhead_line#Tensioning

Nope, I mean bright red plastic-looking balls and springs, and dangly discs. If they were near a vegetable patch I'd assume they were to scare birds. But I don't see why you would put them up to scare birds for a couple hundred metres there, and nowhere else.

# ? Sep 2, 2013 23:01

Bacon Terrorist: May 7, 2010; to ride eternal, shiny and chrome

THUNDERDOME LOSER 2022

Must be something unique to that area? I had to do a an examination of the OHLE with my driver on Monday evening when a Pendelino broke down between Carnforth and Lancaster and never noticed those. That particular incident made everything two house late :smith:

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/run-trains-well-save-20m-5851454#.Ui1ukdo0-8k.facebook

This would be a catastrophe I think, especially in my area (Cumbria).

# ? Sep 9, 2013 08:02

Hugh G. Rectum: Mar 1, 2011

Brovine posted:

Bozza, OHLE related question: Just to the north of Coppermill Junction (Tottenham Hale --> Liverpool Street/Stratford), there are some strange spirals, balls and discs attached to the cables that run between the top outer corners of the overhead line masts. What are they for?

Usually those are for visibility so low-flying aircraft don't hit them. Do they look anything like this?

Cancelbot posted:

In terms of rolling stock. Because I love about NVH (Noise, Vibration and Harshness) are there set standards that the trains must abide to so that they're not a bouncy, loud hellride?

For example - The Pendolino trains are fantastically quiet anywhere you sit in them. You only hear little thuds from the gaps or junctions. But the class 323's between Stockport and Manchester make that lovely electric "shifting" sound: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_3_kygNNRg

The class 175s that Arriva run are the quietest diesel trains on the inside that I've been on and I've already assumed that the designers of the Pacers decided that we don't need ears anyway.

That "shifting" sound is the noise of the inverters converting DC to AC for the induction motors, there's a few trains that actually play a little melody with them by programming it to use harmonic frequencies to drive the motors :3:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6sz_WRPBFA

# ? Sep 9, 2013 09:47

Endjinneer: Aug 17, 2005; Fallen Rib

Brovine posted:

Bozza, OHLE related question: Just to the north of Coppermill Junction (Tottenham Hale --> Liverpool Street/Stratford), there are some strange spirals, balls and discs attached to the cables that run between the top outer corners of the overhead line masts. What are they for?

I'd like to try to answer this one, if I may?

You could be talking about some kind of decoration to increase visual presence. I've seen red warning triangles fixed to overhead wires (ok earth wires if we're being precise, they don't carry current except when something goes wrong) where a road runs parallel and close to the railway. These would be to stop someone on the road driving say a hedge trimmer or telehandler, or just a long load, from hitting the wires.

Or you could be talking about the OLE switching. Overhead lines are divided into sections so that bits can be powered down and replaced, or safely worked around.
To allow this to happen, you have a mast which supports a gigantic, high voltage version of your lamp switch. In this case, the spirals and balls and discs would be on a gantry reaching across the tracks.

Or you could be talking about some sort of point discharge rig to prevent lightning strikes, but this is a guess.

# ? Sep 9, 2013 19:20

TinTower: Apr 21, 2010; You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.

Would it be worth doing a HS2 infobomb? Regardless of the utility of the specific route, it's rather annoying seeing people want to shoot ourselves in the foot for "ARE GARDENS :qq:

# ? Sep 9, 2013 20:55

Lady Gaza: Nov 20, 2008

I think Bozza did an effort post on HS2 a while back, you could try looking through his post history in this thread.

# ? Sep 9, 2013 21:27

lets go swimming: Sep 6, 2012; EAT THE CHEESE, NICHOLSON!

Is it this article you're talking about Lady Gaza?

I'd still read an HS2 infobomb though.

# ? Sep 10, 2013 13:52

Bozza: Mar 5, 2004; "I'm a really useful engine!"

My office is just about to start work on design the HS2 enabling works so they better not cancel it now :argh:

# ? Sep 10, 2013 13:57

vanity slug: Jul 20, 2010

At least you'd have more time to tell us about level crossings!

# ? Sep 10, 2013 15:13

penus de milo: Mar 9, 2002; CHAR CHAR

Autumn 2015, Bozza is delighted to present to the thread 'A treatise on British Level Crossings'

# ? Sep 10, 2013 15:34

FISHMANPET: Mar 3, 2007; Sweet 'N Sour
Can't
Melt
Steel Beams

Bringing an event known as the Bozza crossings.

# ? Sep 10, 2013 17:15

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# ? May 27, 2024 06:59

Bacon Terrorist: May 7, 2010; to ride eternal, shiny and chrome

THUNDERDOME LOSER 2022

Authorities claiming the derailed Nuclear Flask Train at Barrow had empty flasks anyway, I would have thought the police would have sufficed rather than the army in that case?

# ? Sep 17, 2013 11:18

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Trainchat - The failure of privatisation in the British Railway

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