Hillsborough disaster discussion (report released 12/09)

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stickyfngrdboy: Oct 21, 2010

I can't believe it's 2013 and there's still people blaming Liverpool fans for Hillsborough. But then someone posted an EDF Energy twitter picture earlier and people seemed to be blaming them for the EDL riots last night so in conclusion our country is full of utter loving retards.

# ? May 23, 2013 13:34

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# ? Jun 10, 2024 15:21

ephex: Nov 4, 2007; PHWOAR CRIMINAL

Iridium posted:

Well there's your problem.

Well yeah, I know, but it has a great number of users and that's kinda useful if you want to make stuff popular.

He also replied to me with this:

"Looks like we found another Scally still in self-denial."

Heh.

# ? May 23, 2013 14:48

kcer: May 28, 2004; Today is good weather
for an airstrike.

Adulterous Hitler posted:

So I posted this on reddit (yeah) to get some attention to it and I get this gem in response:

Post it in the form of a meme or put a cat in there somewhere and it'll gets loads of coverage

# ? May 23, 2013 15:40

Hoops: Aug 19, 2005; A Black Mark For Retarded Posting

The subreddit for Liverpool is really great for getting information/stats/things like "what if" charts, but any actual discussion is not even worth reading.

# ? May 23, 2013 16:54

Scienide: Sep 29, 2006; Gunplay...

I've gone through the whole thread but couldn't see this posted.

Warninig It contains some graphic images that I'm sure some of you have seen before and the story of the Ambulance man who made it in.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/uk/hillsborough-tragedy-999-response-was-poor-ambulanceman-28791195.html

# ? May 23, 2013 22:16

Psybro: May 12, 2002

stickyfngrdboy posted:

I can't believe it's 2013 and there's still people blaming Liverpool fans for Hillsborough.

Most of us grew up being spoon fed the bullshit. I'm much more credulous about this sort of thing after seeing how police dealt with the student protests we had a couple of years ago.

People assume that the authorities aren't actively and consipratorially evil until they actually see incontrivertible evidence that they are. Just how much evidence it takes is probably the gauge of thickness.

# ? May 24, 2013 00:38

c0burn: Sep 2, 2003; The KKKing

Only just got around to watching this. The young lad absolutely screaming at the coppers from behind the stand makes me feel utterly sick

# ? May 24, 2013 08:26

Adrianics: Aug 15, 2006; Affirmative. Yes. Yo. Right on. My man.

God, it's so hard to picture in your head just how bad the situation was, the BBC archive footage from the pitch in that documentary is so harrowing.

# ? May 24, 2013 10:03

Ninpo: Aug 6, 2004; by FactsAreUseless

Yeah. It also shows in full clarity exactly how utterly loving reprehensible that Sun front page was, that was essentially serving as a South Yorkshire Police mouthpiece, with the various allegations being made of looting corpses etc. Because people have time to do that when being crushed to death.

# ? May 24, 2013 10:09

Adrianics: Aug 15, 2006; Affirmative. Yes. Yo. Right on. My man.

What always gets me about those accusations is just how insultingly easy they are to disprove. Fans looting and pissing on corpses, you say? In front of literally thousands of witnesses? In the presence of dozens of BBC cameras and journalists? Right there next to hundreds of police officers? Not one of whom has come forward to collaborate these accusations?

# ? May 24, 2013 10:24

jesus WEP: Oct 17, 2004

Adrianics posted:

What always gets me about those accusations is just how insultingly easy they are to disprove. Fans looting and pissing on corpses, you say? In front of literally thousands of witnesses? In the presence of dozens of BBC cameras and journalists? Right there next to hundreds of police officers? Not one of whom has come forward to collaborate these accusations?

Football fans had an awful reputation at the time, people would believe any old poo poo about "hooligans."

It disappoints me that football fans all across the UK didn't boycott the Sun. A lot of people ignore that this tragedy was waiting to happen, and it could have happened to another team just as easily. "The Truth" should have been seen as an insult to Liverpool fans, the people of Liverpool, and football fans across the country. For whatever reason only the first two really took hold and I think that's sad.

# ? May 24, 2013 17:04

irlZaphod: Mar 26, 2004; Kiss the Joycon to Kiss Zelda

What's worse is Liverpool fans who don't boycott The Sun.

# ? May 24, 2013 17:32

Paperhouse: Dec 31, 2008; I think
your hair
looks much
better
pushed
over to
one side

A lot of football fans probably believed it. People believe what they read in the papers, sometimes even when it is already known to be patently false, so when you get a narrative that is strongly telling you something it's not that surprising for people to take it in. Also, I don't really know much about any kind of anti-Liverpool sentiment at the time, but I might guess there could have been some given their success at the time. Certainly many Manchester United fans have mocked or otherwise treated Liverpool with contempt over Hillsborough mostly just because they hate Liverpool

# ? May 24, 2013 17:32

stickyfngrdboy: Oct 21, 2010

Everyone hated Liverpool back then. They were extremely successful, and Heysel was still fresh in people's memories. Of course in those days there weren't five or six English clubs in Europe, there was maybe two and only one in the European Cup and as Liverpool won the league title every year well they had the presence in Europe which meant so did their fans. If another club had been that successful at the time THOSE fans would have had the reputation the Reds had, every club had huge hooligan following. So yeah at the time we all (I was about 16 at the time) believed that the disaster had been caused by the fans, because everyone from the police to the government, in every news report, told us it was AND it was believable.

But it's been nearly 25 years since Hillsborough, and every single piece of evidence we've seen has shown that original story to be a complete fabrication. There's no WAY fans were even PARTLY to blame and it angers me that after all this time there's still people saying they were. It's loving outrageous, lads.

And I typed all this out on my tiny little phone and it's taken ages and been v annoying.

# ? May 24, 2013 17:58

Paperhouse: Dec 31, 2008; I think
your hair
looks much
better
pushed
over to
one side

I'm glad you did it is a good post stickyfingrdboy. The most mental thing is when you explain why it has been proven that the fans had no part in it, and people still say that of course they did a bit. At that point they're either trolling or you are just wasting your time completely

# ? May 24, 2013 18:04

Psybro: May 12, 2002

Paperhouse posted:

Certainly many Manchester United fans have mocked or otherwise treated Liverpool with contempt over Hillsborough mostly just because they hate Liverpool

I stopped reading Red Issue because:

1) It was really bad

and

2) Some people just could not get away from trying to construct a Hillsborough/Munich mockery calculus

# ? May 25, 2013 01:50

c0burn: Sep 2, 2003; The KKKing

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-22779255

quote:

Fresh inquests into the deaths of the 96 Hillsborough victims will be held before a jury, a coroner has confirmed.

Lord Justice Goldring announced the decision at a pre-inquest hearing in London.

The judge said he hoped to start work on 31 March. He has previously said the inquest should be in the North West.

Ninety-five people died at Sheffield's Hillsborough stadium on April 15 1989, with the 96th dying four years later after a ruling to end his life.

Thousands of fans were crushed on the ground's Leppings Lane terrace before the Liverpool v Nottingham Forest FA Cup semi-final.

New inquests were ordered in December when the High Court quashed the original verdicts of accidental death.

A venue for the new inquests in to Britain's worst sporting disaster is yet to be decided.

'Anticipated'
Lord Justice Goldring said he agreed with the lead counsel to the inquests, Christina Lambert QC, in her argument that the proceedings must have a wide scope.

Ms Lambert said the inquests must look at such matters as the design of the stadium, preparation for the semi-final, planning by police and other organisations, movement and distribution of fans, overcrowding at the turnstiles and the police response.

She said they must also include the issue of the survivability of the victims if other emergency care had been available.

Michael Mansfield QC, representing 73 of the families, said the "problems at Hillsborough were anticipated in other grounds, at other times" and hoped there would be recourse to reports on other disasters at football matches.

"The Cup final in 1923 had this problem [and] there were other football grounds where there were tragedies," he said.

"The last, in 1985, was the Bradford fire, which led to the Popplewell Report [which] talked of training in relation to crowd management.

"We would hope, therefore, that one has recourse to these earlier reports about other grounds, and safety and management at grounds in other contexts."

Recruitment delay
The judge expressed concerns during the hearing about the speed of the investigation into any criminal aspect of the disaster.

Samantha Leek QC, representing the Stoddart team carrying out the probe, told the judge they were planning to complete interviews by December.

There was laughter from some of the Hillsborough victims' relatives when she said an advert had been placed for 70 or 80 additional officers on Friday.

When this was queried by the judge Ms Leek explained there had been "delays in the Home Office signing off on the recruitment of further officers".

The judge said there would be a further pre-hearing on a date to be decided in October.

"Obviously, we are going to have to timetable the hearing itself with care, particularly as we will have a jury, so time is not unlimited," he said.

# ? Jun 5, 2013 19:49

Babby Thatcher: May 3, 2004; concept by my buddy kyle

yeah, about that

http://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/clare-sambrook/olympic-bunglers-g4s-recruit-for-hillsborough-inquiry

the whitewash hasn't stopped

# ? Jun 6, 2013 00:33

Total Meatlove: Jan 28, 2007; Rangers died, shoujo Hitler cried ;_;

South Yorkshire Police will always be cunts;

quote:

South Yorkshire police chiefs wanted to use funds donated in memory of Hillsborough disaster victims to pay for breaks in the sun for their officers, it has emerged.

The ECHO can reveal a holiday flat, microwave ovens for police station kitchens and new gym equipment were on a wish list circulated among senior officers in February 1991.

The majority of the �12m fund had been given to families, survivors and others affected by the disaster, including match stewards at the stadium.

But a significant amount of what were described as �residual� funds remained, and its trustees asked police and other organisations for ideas on how they might be used.

Former Merseyside chief constable Norman Bettison, then a Superintendent based in South Yorkshire Police�s F Division, requested �2,000 to refurbish the reception area of his police station.

Other ideas included new blinds for the force�s casualty bureau and �better gifts� for officers on sick leave.

The disaster fund included �100,000 from Liverpool FC, as well as money from Liverpool city council and the proceeds of a charity version of Ferry Cross the Mersey featuring Paul McCartney and Gerry Marsden, which was number one for three weeks in May and June, 1989.

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/south-yorkshire-police-wanted-spend-5749493

# ? Aug 19, 2013 15:22

Akbar: Nov 22, 2004; Hubba-
Hubba.

Total Meatlove posted:

South Yorkshire Police will always be cunts;

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/south-yorkshire-police-wanted-spend-5749493

This is hilarious and gently caress off if you don't think so. "Provision of worthwhile gifts to police officers." Oh good lordy I'm in stitches.

# ? Aug 19, 2013 19:24

Babby Thatcher: May 3, 2004; concept by my buddy kyle

turns out the dead and the dying at Hillsborough WERE pickpocketed, just not quite how the Sun described it....

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/hillsborough-police-paid-money-found-among-the-dead-into-forces-coffers-8793702.html

# ? Sep 1, 2013 23:45

chuggo is BACK: Jul 1, 2008; "Chuggo"

PWM POTM December 2014

Babby Thatcher posted:

turns out the dead and the dying at Hillsborough WERE pickpocketed, just not quite how the Sun described it....

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/hillsborough-police-paid-money-found-among-the-dead-into-forces-coffers-8793702.html

Hahahaha jesus christ it's beyond belief I'm speechless

# ? Sep 1, 2013 23:59

Paperhouse: Dec 31, 2008; I think
your hair
looks much
better
pushed
over to
one side

loving hell, honestly thought it couldn't get worse but there it is

Seriously unbelievable

# ? Sep 2, 2013 00:55

Total Meatlove: Jan 28, 2007; Rangers died, shoujo Hitler cried ;_;

utter scum

# ? Sep 2, 2013 01:04

irlZaphod: Mar 26, 2004; Kiss the Joycon to Kiss Zelda

That's incredibly ironic, in a most heinous and disgusting fashion.

# ? Sep 2, 2013 09:52

The Mash: Feb 17, 2007; You have to say I can open my presents

At this point this thread is gonna need to borrow the subtitle from the freeper thread in D&D because that poo poo is ridiculous

# ? Sep 2, 2013 09:56

Ninpo: Aug 6, 2004; by FactsAreUseless

Babby Thatcher posted:

turns out the dead and the dying at Hillsborough WERE pickpocketed, just not quite how the Sun described it....

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/hillsborough-police-paid-money-found-among-the-dead-into-forces-coffers-8793702.html

Holy loving poo poo.

# ? Sep 2, 2013 10:46

ephex: Nov 4, 2007; PHWOAR CRIMINAL

Babby Thatcher posted:

turns out the dead and the dying at Hillsborough WERE pickpocketed, just not quite how the Sun described it....

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/hillsborough-police-paid-money-found-among-the-dead-into-forces-coffers-8793702.html

# ? Sep 2, 2013 11:53

Coohoolin: Aug 5, 2012; Oor Coohoolie.

I feel literally sick. And I'm not American, so literally means literally.

# ? Sep 3, 2013 01:55

Ninpo: Aug 6, 2004; by FactsAreUseless

At face value this looks a decent project:

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/258631210/saturday-short-film-about-the-hillsborough-disaste

# ? Sep 3, 2013 09:41

belgend: Mar 6, 2008; me when The Club do another win

Babby Thatcher posted:

turns out the dead and the dying at Hillsborough WERE pickpocketed, just not quite how the Sun described it....

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/hillsborough-police-paid-money-found-among-the-dead-into-forces-coffers-8793702.html

loving hell

# ? Sep 3, 2013 09:44

Babby Thatcher: May 3, 2004; concept by my buddy kyle

so after nearly a decade of its existence and nearly 2 decades more of its predecessor, the IPCC has issued some criticism of the police.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-24051314

this in non pig speak means they probably drafted every word of the 'fan's accounts' from scratch and then wiped their arses with them anyway just out of the general principle of contempt for the public

# ? Sep 12, 2013 00:54

c0burn: Sep 2, 2003; The KKKing

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2013/sep/12/hillsborough-manslaughter-police-fa-council-club

quote:

Manslaughter charges could be brought against the South Yorkshire police force and senior officers on duty when 96 people died at the Hillsborough football stadium on 15 April 1989, according to the senior detective leading a new criminal investigation into the disaster.

Speaking for the first time about what he labelled a criminal inquiry of "unprecedented scale", Jon Stoddart, former chief constable of the Durham force, said his team were exploring the culpability of not just the police, but Sheffield Wednesday football club, the city council and the Football Association. All were being investigated for possible gross negligence manslaughter, he said.

Stoddart is one of the country's most experienced detectives. He oversaw a review into the new phone hacking investigation run by the Metropolitan police and for 10 years was the leading expert on homicide investigations in England and Wales.

In an interview with the Guardian marking a year since the Hillsborough independent panel published a devastating report into the disaster, Stoddart said his criminal investigation was investigating all agencies involved in the tragedy. "We are exploring all liability, both public and individual," he said.

"We are looking at unlawful killing; who is responsible for the deaths. Those 96 people went to Hillsborough to watch a football match and didn't return home. We want to know what happened, how it happened and why, and who is responsible.

"Obviously we are looking at the command and control [of the 54,000 crowd at Hillsborough by South Yorkshire police] on 15 April. But clearly it is about more than just command and control and what happened with the emergency services' response. It is about the safety of the stadium, certification, the planning and preparation, the engineering and design that went into the Leppings Lane end [where the 96 people died]."

His investigation, called Operation Resolve, is operating under the laws that existed in 1989, when organisations could be charged with "gross negligence manslaughter" if a single person was identifiably at fault as the "controlling mind". The new crime of corporate manslaughter that entered the statute books in 2008 cannot be used retrospectively.

The investigation will examine the role of Sheffield Wednesday football club, which offered to host the 1989 FA Cup semi-final between Liverpool and Nottingham Forest at its ground despite serial breaches of the Home Office guide to ground safety and a safety certificate 10 years out of date.

Sheffield city council, which was statutorily responsible for licensing the stadium as safe, and the FA, which commissioned the ground for its semi-final despite Hillsborough's safety breaches and previous crushes at semi-finals there in 1981, 1987 and 1988, are also being investigated for potential manslaughter charges.

Asked if South Yorkshire police, Sheffield Wednesday, Sheffield city council and the FA were being investigated for possible criminal culpability, Stoddart said: "Yes, absolutely." Stoddart rejected any accusation that as a police officer he had any institutional sympathy for those on duty on the day in South Yorkshire. "I have no qualms about this," he said. "We are entirely independent."

The office emphasised that his team, which will number 171 by the end of September, including approximately 50 serving police officers from eleven forces, has no connections with South Yorkshire police, West Midlands, or any other force which had an involvement with Hillsborough.

For the investigation, which has a Home Office budget of �9.6m, Stoddart said he has sought police officers and other investigative staff "with the very highest skills".

He spoke as the Independent Police Complaints Commission, which is running a parallel criminal inquiry into the actions of the police in the aftermath of the disaster, said they had been handed new evidence in the form of 90 pocket books written by South Yorkshire officers on duty on the day.

In addition, the police watchdog said it had uncovered evidence that 238 police statements had been altered � 74 more than previously believed � and that witness accounts might have been amended by West Midlands police, who were charged with investigating the actions of the South Yorkshire force.

Besides unlawful killing offences, Stoddart said other potential criminal offences under investigation include breaches of health and safety law, and for individuals working in public bodies, including the police: "Misfeasance and malfeasance amounting to misconduct and neglect in public office. Misfeasance in public office is a criminal offence; it is a very serious offence," he said.While chief constable of Durham police, Stoddart was from 2002 the national Association of Chief Police Officers lead on policy, practice and training for homicide investigations. Two months after his retirement in October last year, the home secretary, Theresea May, appointed him to lead the new criminal investigation into Hillsborough.

The panel report, based on more than 450,000 documents disclosed by South Yorkshire police, Sheffield Wednesday, the FA and other organisations, highlighted profound safety failings in the Leppings Lane end, on the day and in the years preceding the disaster, and a failure of the emergency services to provide prompt medical care.

Yet the original investigation by West Midlands police, headed at the time by Geoffrey, now Lord Dear, resulted in no prosecutions of any organisation or individual for any offence.

Stoddart said he recognised his new investigation into how the 96 people, most under 25, died under the care of South Yorkshire police at Hillsborough was "incredibly important for confidence in the police's ability to scrupulously investigate the police."

Terry Sweeney, Stoddart's deputy, is a serving assistant chief constable of Greater Manchester police, which has also seconded detective chief superintendent Gerry Donnellan to Operation Resolve. Criticised by solicitors representing 19 bereaved families this week for slow progress, Stoddart said his team had "really pushed on" to staff, structure and begin work on an investigation of "unprecedented scale".

His investigation is also providing evidence for the new inquest and Stoddart said they would meet the deadline set by the coroner, Lord Justice Godring, for the inquest to start by 31 March.

Sweeney added: "It is not about whether you are a police officer, a member of the [Sheffield city] council, or Sheffield Wednesday or the FA, the families deserve this issue to be investigated to the highest possible standard, with the best rigour and the most professional skills and abilities we have in the service. That is what we have to do. Whether [the people under investigation] are police or not, doesn't matter to us."

South Yorkshire police told the Guardian in a statement: "We continue to fully co-operate with all inquiries into the Hillsborough tragedy and will not be making any further comment so as not to compromise the investigations."

Solicitors representing the former South Yorkshire police chief superintendent David Duckenfield, who was in command at Hillsborough, and superintendents Roger Marshall and Roger Greenwood, said it would be inappropriate to comment given the ongoing inquiries. Sheffield city council and the FA said they were co-operating with the Stoddart inquiry. Sheffield Wednesday declined to comment.

# ? Sep 12, 2013 08:09

vyelkin: Jan 2, 2011

Video footage filmed by police may have been edited.

Unfortunately the story doesn't actually say much more about it, like how it may have been edited or what the footage did or didn't show that could warrant editing in the first place.

# ? Oct 8, 2013 01:38

Ninpo: Aug 6, 2004; by FactsAreUseless

vyelkin posted:

Video footage filmed by police may have been edited.

Unfortunately the story doesn't actually say much more about it, like how it may have been edited or what the footage did or didn't show that could warrant editing in the first place.

A bad "photoshop" of a Liverpool shirt being stuck over the police that actually were looting corpses?

# ? Oct 8, 2013 01:41

Breath Ray: Nov 19, 2010

based on the fact that seventy something people have died in police custody in the last forty something years and no police has ever been charged let alone convicted I think any attempt to seek criminal damages will founder due to the large number of contributory factors they can point to like the stadium turn styles and the wrong kind of leaves on the terraces

# ? Jan 25, 2014 01:46

c0burn: Sep 2, 2003; The KKKing

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/hillsborough-officers-accuse-liverpool-fans-6676907

quote:

Senior police officers will accuse Liverpool FC fans of drunken behaviour at the Hillsborough disaster, a pre inquest hearing was told today.

Families at the hearing in London shouted "disgrace" at John Beggs QC, representing match commander David Duckenfield and ground commanders Roger Greenwood and Roger Marshall, as he said he would be making the suggestion that the drunkenness of spectators contributed to the disaster.

Paddy Shennan comment: "This was beneath contempt - an absolutely appalling assault on the memories of the 96 and all the survivors."

Andrew Nuttall, representing former Dep Chief Constable Peter Hayes and Assistant Chief Constable Stuart Anderson, said: "The levels of blood alcohol of the deceased are not relevant to either the cause of deaths or the cause of the disaster.

"However, our position, like that of the match commanders, in relation to spectators is that we do feel it's relevant and we will be pursuing that case."

Trevor Hicks, whose two daughters died in the disaster, said he was not surprised some senior officers "were trying to reintroduce the alcohol argument".

He said: "It's part of a dirty tactics campaign which backfired on them before and will backfire on them again.

"To quote Lord Justice Taylor, it would be far more seemly to face up to their responsibilities, instead of just slinging mud at the fans."

Sheila Coleman, from the Hillsborough Justice Campaign, said: "I don't think it's that clever an argument and we're quite happy to take them on.

"Lord Justice Taylor put that myth to bed and it was further put to bed by the Hillsborough Independent Panel report."

# ? Feb 5, 2014 19:28

Zero Star: Jan 22, 2006; Robit the paranoid blogger.

oh for gently caress's sake

# ? Feb 5, 2014 19:36

stickyfngrdboy: Oct 21, 2010

The levels of blood alcohol are irrelevant but we will pursue the case that they are, in fact, relevant.

Is there something glaringly obvious I'm missing here?

edit: other than the fact those people are utter cunts, of course.

# ? Feb 5, 2014 19:52

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# ? Jun 10, 2024 15:21

c0burn: Sep 2, 2003; The KKKing

stickyfngrdboy posted:

The levels of blood alcohol are irrelevant but we will pursue the case that they are, in fact, relevant.

Is there something glaringly obvious I'm missing here?

edit: other than the fact those people are utter cunts, of course.

That's pretty much it

# ? Feb 5, 2014 19:54

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Sports Argument Stadium > The Ray Parlour > Hillsborough disaster discussion (report released 12/09)

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