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HoboWithAShotgun posted:In DOTA or LoL, you need to learn an encyclopedic amount of info on items, stats, heroes and abilities, as well as using that information in an efficient way (i.e. kill the other guy before he kills you). I'm a pro-execution guy, but this is different. When you learn rote execution, you are training muscle memory. It isn't about knowledge. It is exactly the same as learning scales on a musical instrument. You just sit there and do it repeatedly until it clicks. It is no coincidence that desk is a musician.* *(this can be slightly less true for games with really long combos, where there is more memorization and momentary adjustments, that seems to be alot like Dota's mix of knowledge, adjustments, etc) Anyways, some people don't find any enjoyment in that. I do. I find it rewarding to achieve goals and to get my brain and hands to do things that don't seem like they should be able to do. Maybe we can just have lots of FGs, and some with one button combos like Persona. I think alot of people who wish the games would be easier, paradoxically LOVE watching high execution players strut their stuff. I know I get a kick out of watching Marlinpie or Yipes do some insane combo that you know is the result of diligent practice. When strategy (choosing what you want your character to do) and execution (getting him to do it) are both buzzing in harmony its magic. The greatest moments in tournaments and our own games with our friends come from this. Whether it is the daigo parry or landing our first clutch FADC ultra to take a game against your kid brother, that's the good poo poo. 40 OZ fucked around with this message at 18:22 on Aug 21, 2013 |
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Aug 21, 2013 18:18
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apple posted:FFS, that's even worse! For what it's worth a friend of mine up here in Scotland got in and had two very good matches in terms of being able to react and do HD combos and whatnot, prior to the patch with a dude from York in England and a dude from Morocco. I suspect the more people that get in the more good reports you'll get of certain combinations of players but that it might be impossible to tell ahead of time based on the meter as to whether it's gonna be good or not. That happening in itself is most probably a fixable issue without rewriting the entire system if it's a routing issue that other games overcome without just handling latency better.
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Aug 21, 2013 18:18
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Has anyone made a big comprehensive guide to all the Divekick in-jokes yet?
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Aug 21, 2013 18:20
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Dj Meow Mix posted:Apparently Aquapazza is getting a full retail release in America this year. I can't believe that's actually happening. If you're into anime fighters or want to try one that plays at a more Street Fighter pace, give it a look. So what you are saying is that Im a huge dummy for importing it recently.  Then again, I can use this opportunity to practice the poo poo out of it and then dominate online!
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Aug 21, 2013 18:30
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Well, just played my first game of KOF XIII online - or tried to, rather. Connection was only one bar, but I thought it'd be workable. Boy, was I wrong. Felt like I had at least 10 frames of delay, i.e. I couldn't react to anything, even regular jumps, and stringing anything other than cr.Bs together was impossible, while the host appeared to be fine. So yeah, it seems like there might just be a tiny bit of host advantage.
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Aug 21, 2013 18:53
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I think Garou on XBLA (and maybe some other SNK fighters) had host-advantage. Why did they think it was a good idea to begin with, and why did they think it was a good enough idea to bring back?
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Aug 21, 2013 18:55
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40 OZ posted:Anyways, some people don't find any enjoyment in that. I do. I find it rewarding to achieve goals and to get my brain and hands to do things that don't seem like they should be able to do. Maybe we can just have lots of FGs, and some with one button combos like Persona. For real, I love the auto combo in Persona. It bridges that personal gap where I am only just learning the important small chains of moves for my character, and being able to have a reliable source of damage, even when I forget or panic over trying to do something with more difficult execution. It means the games of P4A I've played (and see) often come down to circumstances where the combos are short and simple (SMP loops excepting, but I've not seen them in a proper match yet), but the matches are tense. I get less excited about seeing long combos, even though I understand how difficult they are to do. It's not something that would work for every game, but I'm happy it's an idea that's being taken seriously. I believe JoJo's All Star Battle uses it.
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Aug 21, 2013 19:36
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Six Of Spades posted:For real, I love the auto combo in Persona. It bridges that personal gap where I am only just learning the important small chains of moves for my character, and being able to have a reliable source of damage, even when I forget or panic over trying to do something with more difficult execution. Autocombos also have the downside where characters have really really lovely and unsafe autocombos, and mashing A becomes a very bad habit for new players. And I don't know if I'd consider P4A one of the most accessible games for newer players in general.
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Aug 21, 2013 19:42
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Well the A > Additional A is pretty safe for all the characters, right? I'm at the point where I start with the AutoCombo, and then perform other moves to mix things up - which I assumed is what was intended. They're not super glamourous or effective, but it gave me a palpable feeling of progressing at the game. It is indeed super easy to rely on the autocombo, but personally, I've found it easier to get a good grasp of where I can progress my game understanding from it than say, Street Fighter IV, where I felt super lost at what I should be doing to 'get' the game better, even though I really enjoyed playing it. Really it's all anecdotal evidence and me being bad at video games, but it does mean I notice when a fighter eases me into playing it more than others.
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Aug 21, 2013 19:50
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Recently picked up GGXXAC+ from PSN in anticipation of the +R patch (where the heck is it in NA?). Haven't played GG since PS2 when it was my favorite along with 3S, decided to pick up Potemkin as I liked Tager in BB and didn't feel like going back to my old character, Sol. Some of these missions are pretty tricky for me, specifically the missions where a) the CPU is super fast and b) only hits 2+ in a combo deal damage. I can do a few simple combos that have taken me through some of these, as Pote's normals are so powerful you don't need much, but the tougher missions are really giving me trouble. For the first couple, a simple [P K S H] chain or similar combo was sufficient. When I can get away with it I also like [236S 5K 2S 623H] or [236S 5K 2S 2H super] or something, but that's a bit infrequent in the missions where I don't get counterhit out of it. A lot of my current strategy against dudes I know in person is based around big single hits, like Pot Buster and catching folks out of the air with the Heat throw > Extend. I am so rusty I need a lot of fundamental work and I can't pull all the combos off consistently, but Potemkin just feels so big and slow. I really like his aesthetic and moveset, so I'm sticking with him, but a few years ago I could flow Sol around the screen like water, Potemkin is sort of like controlling a lame concrete slab. But he can be intimidating when I can get into the groove, at least against other humans.
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Aug 21, 2013 20:20
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I think ST Zangief is a character that has very little execution barrier when you're starting, but still exists in a deep game. If you can consistently lariat and 360 you can play him, and you learn a lot about how to play grapplers and the footsies game. Due to the throw mechanics no one is going to rush you down, which allows you to skip 1-frame reversals, and Gief doesn't have the option select gimmicks like Hawk does. Ryu vs. Zangief is a really classic matchup which doesn't involve mechanics very much at all.
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Aug 21, 2013 20:21
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Six Of Spades posted:Well the A > Additional A is pretty safe for all the characters, right? I'm at the point where I start with the AutoCombo, and then perform other moves to mix things up - which I assumed is what was intended. They're not super glamourous or effective, but it gave me a palpable feeling of progressing at the game. For some,yes, and for others,[url]=http://www.dustloop.com/wiki/index.php?title=Chie_Frame_Data_(P4Arena)]no[/url]. Also the first 2 or 3 hits of the Autocombo aren't simply a cut and dry dial-a-combo for most characters, since those are still normals that you can chain/special cancel out of into other stuff. It's more of just a chain that can only come out after a jab, so don't feel bad about taking advantage of it! (just don't ever do full autocombos unless you're just messing around)
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Aug 21, 2013 20:32
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I like autocombos a lot. The Touhou fighting games have them and (to my knowledge) every character in the game can get more damage out of a 5A (or 5AA, 5AAA) hitconfirm by following it up with something other than the autocombo but it's something anyone can mash out in melee if they don't know combos for that character.Electromax posted:Potemkin Potemkin's Magical Secret is that in addition to being a grappler, he's also a charge character. You want to be charging your hammerfall whenever possible and constantly canceling things with hammerfall > hammerfall break. This makes him play a lot faster and allows for fun stuff like aborting your normal chain in the middle and doing a buster to catch people who fall asleep at the wheel during combos / while blocking. HMS Boromir fucked around with this message at 21:03 on Aug 21, 2013 |
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Aug 21, 2013 20:59
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I like it too, but I think it probably makes hit-confirming too easy in some cases, which leads to bad habits sooner or later.
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Aug 21, 2013 21:06
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Gutcruncher posted:So what you are saying is that Im a huge dummy for importing it recently. How do you think I feel having imported a year ago? Finally, I can be an import hipster! Unless they change the netcode though I wouldn't count on dominating anyone too harshly, it was terrible for me playing other US folks. I could also dream of a balance patch for Chizuru but I think I might be dreaming a little too much.
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Aug 21, 2013 21:06
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HMS Boromir posted:I like autocombos a lot. The Touhou fighting games have them and (to my knowledge) every character in the game can get more damage out of a 5A (or 5AA, 5AAA) hitconfirm by following it up with something other than the autocombo but it's something anyone can mash out in melee if they don't know combos for that character. Soku is a bad game and the only true Touhou fighter I will accept is IaMP. (The primary reasons why Soku is bad does not include dial-A combos.) Dj Meow Mix posted:I could also dream of a balance patch for Chizuru but I think I might be dreaming a little too much. All I want from Examu is 1.0 Riannon back...
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Aug 21, 2013 21:13
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The netcode is unplayable. Literally. Some friends tried playing within the same house (as a test) and there was noticeable delay. There's no chance they touch it for this release. Also yeah, gently caress a Chizuru.
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Aug 21, 2013 21:14
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Potemkin's pressure is quite scary to press a button against as certain characters, especially if your jump has a lot of startup. May vs Potemkin is probably my favourite matchup because she dies in 1-2 hits but has a lot of tools to mix his big body up. ST Gief needs some ridiculous footsies in some matchups and even then lots of characters have reversal options he has to respect/bait on wakeup, I'd take Hawk with his great jabs and OS over Gief anyday.
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Aug 21, 2013 21:14
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interrodactyl posted:Soku is a bad game https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wn_RDLlvin8 Well, yes.
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Aug 21, 2013 21:15
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Dj Meow Mix posted:How do you think I feel having imported a year ago? Finally, I can be an import hipster! Unless they change the netcode though I wouldn't count on dominating anyone too harshly, it was terrible for me playing other US folks. I'd like to see Chizuru nerfed a little too but honestly the tiers are really good in Aquapazza as it is. Chizuru even has some bad matchups. HMS Boromir posted:Potemkin's Magical Secret is that in addition to being a grappler, he's also a charge character. You want to be charging your hammerfall whenever possible and constantly canceling things with hammerfall > hammerfall break. This makes him play a lot faster and allows for fun stuff like aborting your normal chain in the middle and doing a buster to catch people who fall asleep at the wheel during combos / while blocking. Hammerfall Break canceling normals also gives higher level normals frame advantage on block too. 2S is Lv4 so you can make it as good as +2 on block, with the vacuum and forward motion of Hammerbreak lets you stay on top of the other player at advantage. 5HS can be +4 on hammerbreak, 6HS is about +7. And of course, 2HS Hammerbreak is used for combos and is doubly good in ACPR. interrodactyl posted:All I want from Examu is 1.0 Riannon back... No.
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Aug 21, 2013 21:24
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Gwyrgyn Blood posted:I'd like to see Chizuru nerfed a little too but honestly the tiers are really good in Aquapazza as it is. Chizuru even has some bad matchups. I haven't really gotten to read a lot about this game considering how much I've played it, what match ups are pretty bad for her in your experience? Not complaining, I like the overall balance too, I'm just curious.
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Aug 21, 2013 21:32
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bebaloorpabopalo posted:No, they're pretty much saying the first thing. If it's not combos, it's blocking, or teching throws, or anti-airing. They say some poo poo about just wanting to use MIND GAMES or STRATEGY without understanding what those things actually are in fighting games. Combos are a reward you get for using MING GAMES or STRATEGY. If those combos were 2-3 hits like in ST, they'd still complain because they refuse to learn how to block, and complain when their opponent blocks their jump RH into sweep or anti-airs them over and over. These people aren't idiots, but they are frustrated with an obtuse system they're having trouble understanding. I've never seen anyone fit the whiny rear end in a top hat you're describing, but I've seen many people try to learn the ropes and give up because they'd rather play a game where they can learn by doing than spend another hour in training mode. bebaloorpabopalo posted:Is this another "all high-level players are superhuman fighting game machines and therefore having something be difficult to execute is of no consequence to them, it only serves to alienate newer players" argument? Because that's dumb and if you watch fighting games at all you should realize this. This is a great straw man, but not what I said at all; I did not say execution was never relevant at high levels, I said that it often was but there are cases where it is not. Lets take a specific example: Cody's cr.lp, cr.lp, cr.lk, HP Criminal Upper combo, the hardest part is a 3-frame link, so with a bit of practice any reasonable player can expect to hit it upwards of 99% of the time. At high level play this combo is so reliable that the execution requirement is irrelevant, but new players are still going to have some trouble getting it down. It's also worth noting that this isn't an optimized combo for Cody, but it is the first BnB that a new player is likely to learn. If it were a persona-style auto-combo that would make the game much more accessible while having zero impact on high level play. bebaloorpabopalo posted:Every time this argument comes up somebody says something like this yet never actually gives specifics of things. What a god drat vague weaselly statement. I gave a couple suggestions just last week when the SF4 thread was talking about mash specials. Just like was mentioned earlier, one button auto-combos are a great idea for this kind of thing. Hey, how about DP motions? Have you ever explained to someone what a DP motion was and have them be able to reliable execute them right off the bat, because I sure as hell haven't. Now, that DP motion takes time to input, that influences the strategy of the game and that's awesome but we can have our cake and eat it too, all we have to do is find a new input that both takes time to do and is easy to do. Let's look at Nether Realm's special move inputs, by only using cardinal directions it makes the motions much more forgiving and you can use 2 or 3 motion inputs to determine how long it takes to input them, it's a great solution! In addition we get a much larger variety of potential inputs, not super significant but it's a plus. There are ways to make fighting games more accessible without sacrificing what makes the high level play great, I hope I've demonstrated that. It's a good thing to do because a bigger scene benefits everybody, y'dig?
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Aug 21, 2013 21:45
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I'm guilty of some of this whining too, though. I have the reverse problem with Tekken. TTT2 has a loving ridiculously huge cast and each character has a thousand moves. Getting hit by some retarded string I've never seen is nonsense and it feels like artificial barrier to me. I realize that it is just that to me execution is "skill" and memorization isn't. I think most characters have remained very similar for at least a couple releases, so that guys who have been playing for 2-3 releases don't have much problems knowing all the strings and poo poo. For me, I'd love to play the series but it isn't worth it to me to remember 1/4 of the moves for 800 characters. If the next Tekken had 8 characters tops I'd be all over that poo poo. Leave every bit of korean backdashing or whatever you want in there! I'm all for it. Redmark posted:I think ST Zangief is a character that has very little execution barrier when you're starting, but still exists in a deep game. If you can consistently lariat and 360 you can play him, and you learn a lot about how to play grapplers and the footsies game. Due to the throw mechanics no one is going to rush you down, which allows you to skip 1-frame reversals, and Gief doesn't have the option select gimmicks like Hawk does. Ryu vs. Zangief is a really classic matchup which doesn't involve mechanics very much at all. I haven't really played SF2 since I was a teen but I remember SPD was too hard for most casual players. Maybe I'm crazy but I just don't see the demographic for picking up ST in 2013 the same as the one who is worried about execution. Also, isn't ST pretty much "figured out" at this point? To where execution, by definition, is what makes the best players? 40 OZ fucked around with this message at 21:51 on Aug 21, 2013 |
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Aug 21, 2013 21:47
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The idea that a reasonably complex fighting game can be "figured out" in the sense of "mathematically solved in a way that can be implemented by a human being" is ridiculous. Even if the overall strategy for each matchup, optimal combos, and so on have been mapped in intricate detail, as long as there are still decisions that rely on guessing or provoking a response from the other player there will be non-trivial skill to the game besides just execution. EDIT: On an unrelated note, the idea of autocombos grosses me out even before I apply any kind of logic or reasoning to it. I guess I feel that even in low-level play, having better execution than the other guy should still be rewarded. If "the ability to execute 1-frame links and complex situational combos" is an acceptable measure for who should win in a high-level match, why should "the ability to execute a fireball motion right after a normal" be inappropriate to low-level ones? Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 22:03 on Aug 21, 2013 |
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Aug 21, 2013 21:55
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Dj Meow Mix posted:I haven't really gotten to read a lot about this game considering how much I've played it, what match ups are pretty bad for her in your experience? Not complaining, I like the overall balance too, I'm just curious. I have basically 0 experience with that matchup personally as well. From what Japanese players have said, her bad matchups are Karula and Konomi. Tamaki is apparently even, and most of the rest of her matchups are only 6-4 at best. So while she's definitely the best in the game, it's not a particularly huge lead or anything. I'm guessing she 100% shits on Riannon though. 
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Aug 21, 2013 21:58
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:EDIT: On an unrelated note, the idea of autocombos grosses me out even before I apply any kind of logic or reasoning to it. I guess I feel that even in low-level play, having better execution than the other guy should still be rewarded. If "the ability to execute 1-frame links and complex situational combos" is an acceptable measure for who should win in a high-level match, why should "the ability to execute a fireball motion" be inappropriate to low-level ones? I've never played a game with autocombos but if I had to imagine how I thought they should work, it would be "the ability to hit confirm a combo"(because it'd be unsafe as hell if you didn't) versus "the ability to perform a fireball motion". Which of those is more fundamental I'm not sure but it at least seems like a legitimate design choice. At autocombos as they exist in released games like this, or are they safe/OSable? vvv It would only be "just execution" if it were mathematically and not just conceptually solved. You still have to guess what they are going to do on wakeup.
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Aug 21, 2013 22:03
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:The idea that a reasonably complex fighting game can be "figured out" in the sense of "mathematically solved in a way that can be implemented by a human being" is ridiculous. Even if the overall strategy for each matchup, optimal combos, and so on have been mapped in intricate detail, as long as there are still decisions that rely on guessing or provoking a response from the other player there will be non-trivial skill to the game besides just execution. Yeah, whoa ease up. quote:the overall strategy for each matchup, optimal combos, and so on have been mapped in intricate detail, That's fine. I agree with your statement here.
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Aug 21, 2013 22:04
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40 OZ posted:I'm guilty of some of this whining too, though. I have the reverse problem with Tekken. From what I understood, even though every character has a ton of special moves, you only need to know a handful! Something that hits hi/mid/low, something that homes, something that launches and bounces, and a few moves you can turn into a simple juggle. That's like, 10-12 moves, which is pretty much like learning what every normal and special move of a Street Fighter character is. The Tagging makes things more complicated (I have no idea how do do those combos where you attack with both dudes at once, but hey), but it's a solid place to start.
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Aug 21, 2013 22:04
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40 OZ posted:I haven't really played SF2 since I was a teen but I remember SPD was too hard for most casual players. Also choking, but that's every fighting game.
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Aug 21, 2013 22:05
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40 OZ posted:Yeah, whoa ease up. I wasn't disagreeing with you, more responding to the same conversation. I think the idea that competetive games have to be in constant flux in order to remain viable is baseless and in some cases outright bad for them.
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Aug 21, 2013 22:06
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Six Of Spades posted:From what I understood, even though every character has a ton of special moves, you only need to know a handful! Something that hits hi/mid/low, something that homes, something that launches and bounces, and a few moves you can turn into a simple juggle. That's like, 10-12 moves, which is pretty much like learning what every normal and special move of a Street Fighter character is. Yeah, I know my moves. I meant the opponent's. Long rear end 10-strings and all that. That's why I like the invincible move in Tekken Revolution. I don't know what the hell you are doing but I know this will beat it.  Tuxedo Catfish posted:I think the idea that competetive games have to be in constant flux in order to remain viable is baseless and in some cases outright bad for them. I agree. On top of that, that amount of flux has deteriorated severely now that we got youtube. People figure out what is going on in games a hell of alot faster these days. 40 OZ fucked around with this message at 22:10 on Aug 21, 2013 |
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Aug 21, 2013 22:08
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Six Of Spades posted:From what I understood, even though every character has a ton of special moves, you only need to know a handful! Something that hits hi/mid/low, something that homes, something that launches and bounces, and a few moves you can turn into a simple juggle. That's like, 10-12 moves, which is pretty much like learning what every normal and special move of a Street Fighter character is. I think the point is that he has to learn how to defend against strings from every character. In Tekken there are strings that are natural mixups, and so for each matchup it will help you greatly to know what the various string enders are so you can defend. I'm not a Tekken player so someone else can correct me if I'm wrong.
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Aug 21, 2013 22:09
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Uh, is GG Accent Core Plus not really available on Europe's PSN? I can only find the two PSP games and the million years old first one from the PSX.
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Aug 21, 2013 22:11
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Saoshyant posted:Uh, is GG Accent Core Plus not really available on Europe's PSN? I can only find the two PSP games and the million years old first one from the PSX. Nope.
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Aug 21, 2013 22:16
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Well, gently caress me. Maybe I can find an American goon willing to go on a share for it? Could probably take the chance to also pick up the revised Vampire Savior.
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Aug 21, 2013 22:28
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Hbomberguy posted:it just doesn't require as much annoying bullshit like hanging in Practice for ages or sitting and waiting for the game to declare you're dead because even though you have half a life bar left the enemy has hit you so you've already lost. If those things have never annoyed you, even if only when you were still new to the game, I don't really know what to say. This is why you lose at fighting games, as a mentality. The moment you just roll your eyes and give up rather than constantly being on guard and trying to make that comeback, being ready to guard in case they drop the combo or go for a reset...you've pretty much lost. Hbomberguy posted:having less buttons doesn't immediately give Divekick less depth. (There are four button games that these complaints aren't leveled at - KOF, etc) Fayk fucked around with this message at 22:57 on Aug 21, 2013 |
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Aug 21, 2013 22:53
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Six Of Spades posted:Well the A > Additional A is pretty safe for all the characters, right? I'm at the point where I start with the AutoCombo, and then perform other moves to mix things up - which I assumed is what was intended. They're not super glamourous or effective, but it gave me a palpable feeling of progressing at the game. AA is pretty safe for everyone, but there's stuff like Naoto AAA being like -37 frames on block.
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Aug 21, 2013 23:02
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Don't get trolled by Fenn the Fool. He's baited everyone previously with similar stuff in the other fg megathreads.
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Aug 21, 2013 23:15
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Gwyrgyn Blood posted:I have basically 0 experience with that matchup personally as well. From what Japanese players have said, her bad matchups are Karula and Konomi. Tamaki is apparently even, and most of the rest of her matchups are only 6-4 at best. So while she's definitely the best in the game, it's not a particularly huge lead or anything. Considering how fast she is I'd have figured Karula would have a worse matchup. The one good Chizuru I've ever played ran a drat train on my Karula, it was disorienting. Most everyone shits on Riannon somehow. Even Oboro.
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Aug 21, 2013 23:22
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Zand posted:Don't get trolled by Fenn the Fool. He's baited everyone previously with similar stuff in the other fg megathreads. Thanks for the warning. I almost tried to actually reply to him, like pointing out that his whole 'training mode is required and can't just play' thing is bullshit. You don't need training mode, as long as you don't have such a fragile ego that you can handle losing. I didn't have anything resembling a real training mode for Jojos, so basically learned that game entirely by playing and losing. (The 360 release didn't exist, Even on Dreamcast there's no autoblock mode, etc)
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Aug 21, 2013 23:38
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