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Minsky posted:I think all you need to keep poopsockers happy is one completely impossible raid boss that gives something cool like a mount, that they can bang their head against until it's eventually nerfed right before the next tier of content is ready. Five months. Everything else died much faster, Ragnaros took so long because of the fire resist gear necessary (or BWL buff if you gimped it) and the phase 2 transition. The argument about people burning through all available group/raid content within weeks of launch is entirely false except for a very small number of guilds - and it's only a problem because a) some games don't put poo poo for end game content in, and b) WoW in particular let guilds play around on test perfecting strategies for weeks/months before releasing it live. A decent amount of content and not letting people dissect it before launching it does wonders. Likewise, the argument that that style of content only serves 1% of the playerbase is equally false, and people really need to stop making that claim. Look at any game with substantial end game PVE raiding content and you'll find a rather large amount of the playerbase does it. Clearing the expansion is another matter entirely, but even there's it's substantially more than 1%. And yeah, TESO going sub confuses me. I'm guessing they're going to try to survive on the PVP aspects, because the PVE so far looks bland and boring beyond belief. Plus the near omnipresent phasing makes it feel much less MMO and much more Guild Wars 1.
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Aug 21, 2013 20:45
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Flarestar posted:Likewise, the argument that that style of content only serves 1% of the playerbase is equally false, and people really need to stop making that claim. Look at any game with substantial end game PVE raiding content and you'll find a rather large amount of the playerbase does it. Clearing the expansion is another matter entirely, but even there's it's substantially more than 1%. It's not actually a statistical 1%, the MMO "1%" is a joke, a reference to the real world Occupy movement 99% vs 1% thing. It's done because MMO raiders tend to be arrogant elitists who look down on the casual majority, much like the rich 1% look down on everyone else in real life.
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Aug 21, 2013 20:53
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When they say the 1% they are also saying that its content that a lot of people won't get to experience. A lot of people don't like raiding, some might not have the time to raid, prefer PvP or smaller dungeons, etc. Its just a weird demographic to go for in a modern MMO. A lot of raiders I've played want to clear the content as quickly as possible. MMO devs cannot possibly make enough content to keep the raiding crowd happy, because the whole point (as we saw with the DNT guy) is to clear that poo poo as fast as possible, get it on farm, and get ready for the next thing. Combine that with the fact that a lot of people don't get to experience the content in the first place, it just seems like a really weird thing to make your MMO about.
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Aug 21, 2013 20:59
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I don't understand why they didn't decide to have only the CREDD system, instead of CREDD AND subscriptions. Personally I don't want to be concerned with real life money in a game I play for fun (and linking in-game currencies to real money does that). I'd rather just pay a subscription fee and be done with it. However, having a system like CREDD available to buy subscription time means that I'll probably end up using that. Usually I play MMORPGs quite intensely for a year or so and then quit, which means I'll probably end up earning enough gold to pay for sub time, so I imagine I'd feel like a sucker if I ended up paying real money when I could be playing for free. So it's like a choice between paying actual money, when I don't really have to, or having to spend time thinking about something outside of the game (subscription time) and saving up instead of buying fun game items. I don't really like either of those options, I hope that makes some sense. It would help a lot if the CREDD system was more flexible, like making it possible to buy days or weeks of subscription time (rather than only being able to buy a whole month). The website is unclear how buying CREDD with gold will function exactly: can you only buy a single CREDD from another player which then buys a whole month, or does a whole month cost like 1000 CREDD and is it possible to buy a portion of that CREDD at a time? Piriwi fucked around with this message at 22:26 on Aug 21, 2013 |
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Aug 21, 2013 22:22
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Piriwi posted:I don't understand why they didn't decide to have only the CREDD system, instead of CREDD AND subscriptions. Based on what they say, a CREDD is 1 month, not some partial thing. Considering the amount of time it take to do anything meaningful in a MMO, I don't think there is a very big market for the people that want to play week to week. GhostBoy fucked around with this message at 22:46 on Aug 21, 2013 |
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Aug 21, 2013 22:43
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Piriwi posted:I don't understand why they didn't decide to have only the CREDD system, instead of CREDD AND subscriptions. Free month out of the box, save up your gold, buy a CREDD with gold off the AH, never have to pay real money. Relax.
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Aug 21, 2013 22:52
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One issue I can see potentially with Wildstar's monetisation model is that it sounds like they are relying on subscribers to additionally pay for people who play free. In their example, the subscription player "is ready for his mount... but he hasn't had the time to earn enough gold to pay for it." So that player then goes and buys CREDD from the store with real money on top of their subscription to sell that CREDD to the player who is playing for free in order to get the currency for their mount. It sort of implies to me that you may be looking at a subscription model which will still require you to either grind a lot for cash to get things like a mount when you're at the appropriate level for it, or pay cash on top of your subscription to get CREDD to sell, essentially paying for the other players who play for free and spend a lot of time in the game. That could push towards grindy gameplay for mounts and convenience items to make sure their subscribers are coughing up that cash for CREDD to sell to their free to play users.
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Aug 22, 2013 01:42
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I told myself I'd never play another MMO with a monthly fee. Then FF14 went and got good and it has a $13 a month fee which is less than normal, plus the box is $30 (got it for 24). No way I'm paying $60 plus a fee, even if this game looks neat.
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Aug 22, 2013 02:59
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Lyer posted:I distinctly remember someone proving that C'thun was mathematically impossible to beat without any nerfs. Not sure about M'uru though. I think the hardest for a long time running was Algalon from Ulduar. If I remember correctly, I think Algalon is the raid boss that has been killed the least by the community.
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Aug 22, 2013 03:06
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Xenosmilus posted:One issue I can see potentially with Wildstar's monetisation model is that it sounds like they are relying on subscribers to additionally pay for people who play free. Time is money. Someone either is spending time at work to get real money, or they'll be spending a bit more time on average than that ingame getting ingame money. Yes, there will be a grind, and both people will invest time into being able to play the game, be it in real life at work or ingame. ~The market~ will balance out the time and money spent in the price. A paid player likely isn't going to buy CREDD to sell if they don't think it's worth it. A free player likely won't buy a CREDD if it's too expensive compared to how long it took them to get the ingame money. Supply and demand will keep the prices reasonable for both kinds of players. An issue I see though is if they don't get a good handle on inflation, prices will rise too high in the long run. Quit on an average amount of cash, come back during the next expansion, and suddenly you're broke and can't come close to being able to afford poo poo because prices rose due to people getting much more ingame money compared to what they spend. The barrier of entry to getting the money to buy CREDD might keep some new players from playing. The longer it takes to get to the best place to rake in money (which will likely be max level), the less likely it is for someone who wants to be a free player will stick with the game. They'll likely only have 30 days to do this, and will be forced to blast through content meant to be enjoyed. The supply(the CREDD bought for real money) will decrease naturally to reach the price equilibrium with demand(the CREDD bought by free players), because who wants to buy CREDD with real money if it's too hard to sell ingame? Too much vertical character progression could actually hurt Wildstar's new and returning player retention in the long run. EVE counters this requirement of linear, vertical progression by having a fair amount of horizontal progression added in their free expansions, usually more than their vertical progression. I started making a good amount of money in EVE early. I made money early from roaming in PVP, and helped suicide gank freighters and miners to get their loot, or I could scam/rob people to get money. I could make money with time invested without an already large time investment in my character's progression. The new ships aren't necessarily a step up for all players, but they're meant to fill a niche of something to do. A player still has something to invest their time in to get skills to fly these new ships, so people still have a sense of progression. It would be good to do this sort of horizontal progression in Wildstar, but how do you do it? They're sort of already painted into a corner of expected progression in this more traditional looking MMO. What do you do to give a player in WoW satisfaction from new content? More quests and lore could fill that, but I would also expect better gear and potentially more levels. The time to acquire the new gear and levels has to be long and enjoyable enough to make the customer feel justified in buying the content, or they'll probably be discouraged from buying future content. But what about new players? People will hear about the game and try it out. It took a long time to get to the level cap in the original, AND it'll probably take the same amount of time in the expansion to get across that level increase. Do you decrease the amount of time it takes to level in the older content? Sure, but then they don't really enjoy the content the way you intended them to. Don't decrease the time and encourage people to enjoy the old content? Well then you'll lose a decent amount of people who want to play by paying ingame money for CREDD. More players playing creates a sort of snowball effect in MMOs, and people drag their friends and others into playing by their recommendations and hyping of the game. I'm worried that they're trying to copy EVE's sub model because it might not be the most compatible business model with their product. Also while on the subject of CREDD, if they're planning on doing expansions bought with real money (which I can see as likely), they might want to adapt their business model to move a little more towards something like Guild Wars 2's model. Let's say you could buy funbux with real money. For X amount of funbux, you could buy a CREDD or just a subscription. For Y amount of funbux, you could buy an expansion. This way you could keep the free players paying without paying a dime directly to you. Players could put their funbux up as something like a sell/buy order in EVE. They are offering the rate of some amount of ingame money for 1 funbux. If there are other people selling at that price, you get put in a queue behind them to sell essentially. Players could also place an order to offer a certain amount of money to buy 1 funbux, up to a certain amount of funbux that they want to buy. A player could sell their funbux immediately and get the cash from the orders, but likely at a lower price, or they could wait it out and sell it at the higher price in the queue, vice versa for someone wanting to buy funbux. You could also throw in dumb things like cosmetic items for people who want to buy that kind of thing, or whatever else they can get away with. I think this kind of system might be a bit better and more flexible for them than how I see CREDD now. (please hire me or shove money into my mouth carbine thanks in advance) Zudrag fucked around with this message at 04:30 on Aug 22, 2013 |
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Aug 22, 2013 04:17
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Am I the only one that thinks those DevSpeak videos are really well done? I can watch them over and over again, never gets boring. Props to you Carbine. Also: Listen to Arus as he speaks wise words. All hail graet leadrr!
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Aug 22, 2013 08:58
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Everything about their new take on CC seems great except for the stun where you just slam your finger into a button 40 times to get out of it, I bet that poo poo is going to get old fast. Is there an album of all the "disclaimers" from the latest one?
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Aug 22, 2013 09:51
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Megafunk posted:Everything about their new take on CC seems great except for the stun where you just slam your finger into a button 40 times to get out of it, I bet that poo poo is going to get old fast. And yet, I'd much rather have that than the classic CC model where you're just stood there drooling -- the other ones are definitely more exciting though, in particular disarm. Confusion is going to screw me up so badly though, I suck at handling sudden direction changes in controls. I expect many hilarious falls to my death to follow.  And chalk me up for another person who loves the devspeak videos. They're well made. I particularly loved the creature designs we were treated to this time around. And now we're onto the ghost rowsdower world take-over conspiracy! But we'll be ready... Yes indeed. 
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Aug 22, 2013 10:12
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Megafunk posted:Everything about their new take on CC seems great except for the stun where you just slam your finger into a button 40 times to get out of it, I bet that poo poo is going to get old fast. This could be easily solved by them making it some kind of combo you have to input to break free early. Like an up up, down down, left right, left right type deal.
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Aug 22, 2013 10:14
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Megafunk posted:Everything about their new take on CC seems great except for the stun where you just slam your finger into a button 40 times to get out of it, I bet that poo poo is going to get old fast. Wait until you have to press 1 repeatedly for 15 minutes to get your basic attack going.
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Aug 22, 2013 11:13
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Vax posted:Am I the only one that thinks those DevSpeak videos are really well done? I can watch them over and over again, never gets boring. Props to you Carbine. I love them as well. The game looks really good in this last one. I hope they will reconsider the box price at least.
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Aug 22, 2013 12:15
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Megafunk posted:Everything about their new take on CC seems great except for the stun where you just slam your finger into a button 40 times to get out of it, I bet that poo poo is going to get old fast. I'm hoping some day someone will turn CC into a game of DDR or space channel 5. God now I want a boss battle based on SPC5 mechanics.
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Aug 22, 2013 12:39
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Megafunk posted:Everything about their new take on CC seems great except for the stun where you just slam your finger into a button 40 times to get out of it, I bet that poo poo is going to get old fast. Here: http://wildstar-central.com/index.php?threads/devspeak-disclaimer.5802/ It also has the previous ones. The devs may be listening, but they also have a delightfully poor sense of humour. 
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Aug 22, 2013 12:46
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Al Borland posted:I'm hoping some day someone will turn CC into a game of DDR or space channel 5. I've long wanted to see a battle against a bard-type boss where the entire raid's hotkeys get converted into five colors and they have to do a collective Rock Band style battle against him.
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Aug 22, 2013 13:45
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Flarestar posted:I've long wanted to see a battle against a bard-type boss where the entire raid's hotkeys get converted into five colors and they have to do a collective Rock Band style battle against him. The Devil Went Down to Georgia versus... the actual devil. I'd play that.
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Aug 22, 2013 13:52
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Xenosmilus posted:One issue I can see potentially with Wildstar's monetisation model is that it sounds like they are relying on subscribers to additionally pay for people who play free. One of the bigger issues in the long run with a system like this will be a result of inflation and the fact that the most gold will always be obtainable by the highest level players. What this means is that the newer you are to the game the harder it will be for you to use gold to pay for your sub. The newest players will be paying the most often and that does kinda suck because MMO communities are usually better off when the barrier to entry is very small for new players. This is especially true for players who don't have a lot of disposable time which is a lot of people these days between work, family, school, and a combination of them all. It is also bad for these kinds of players even after they hit level cap because it means that a much higher percentage of time that they have available to play per month will need to be dedicated towards activities which only amount to making sure they can get their next month's sub for gold as opposed to just logging in and doing whatever they feel is the most fun. It is even worse if these same people like to play more than just one game at a time because they will often want to play another game but in the back of their mind they will be thinking that if they do that then it might mean having to cough up cash for a sub that month to continue playing Wildstar. That is a lovely choice. All of the above is solved if the player doesn't care and is happy with just paying $15/mo but relying too much on that is going to reduce your slice of the market even more. Xavier434 fucked around with this message at 15:21 on Aug 22, 2013 |
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Aug 22, 2013 15:18
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Actually, I think I can succinctly explain what's bad about this business model announcement. We were told what the business model is. We've waited a very long time to find out how it works. Except since it's based on how economics play out, we haven't actually learned what the business model is in reality.
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Aug 22, 2013 16:28
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Holy poo poo, it's a subscription model. If you want to supplement your game time because you have an over abundance of in game currency, you buy CREDD. If you don't want to - you don't.
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Aug 22, 2013 16:53
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The problem is that, since we don't know what the in-game economy's going to be like, the whole nature of buying subscription time with gold is a total unknown. It could be like TERA before it went B2P where Chronoscrolls were dirt-cheap, or there will be rampant inflation putting them out of the hands of everyone save for the most savvy auction house barons. It leaves too much up to chance regarding that half of the payment model, and it goes without saying that people don't like to make big gambles on new MMOs at this point.
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Aug 22, 2013 20:47
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Doh004 posted:Holy poo poo, it's a subscription model. If you want to supplement your game time because you have an over abundance of in game currency, you buy CREDD. If you don't want to - you don't. The other unspoken option is you don't play the game at all, which kind of has negative connotations for the developers. The number of people that are fed up with subscriptions is too small to ignore. That's not even getting into game design intended to keep people on subscription (which in all fairness has become so intrinsic to MMO gaming that non-subscription games are still using it) that players are also becoming fed up with.
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Aug 22, 2013 21:19
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Here are a couple of videos to make their way out of Gamescom over the last day or two: Level 20 Dungeon Presentation - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSGqXenYud8 Housing Presentation - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAfQCI9UFbU Chua Gameplay - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ur9HwsxH2P4 Draken Gameplay - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGg2KYxcvQo Jeremy Gaffney talking about Housing - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Etxxy-bWPVs
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Aug 22, 2013 22:28
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Game looks fun, can't wait to try it out
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Aug 23, 2013 03:31
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CREDD is the PLEX system from EVE, and people are completely missing the point of the system. PLEX isn't some sort of bizarre way to approach F2P. Newbies don't use PLEX for game time. PLEX is all about combating the bots/farmers that RMT creates. It does this by attacking the profitability of RMT by allowing Space Rich players to casually provide supply for the RMT demand, but doing it in a very controlled manner. Since you can't convert a PLEX into cash, but if you are subscribed to Wildstar one is worth $15 cash money each month, it lets a Space Rich player sell $15 worth of in game assets each month with no hassle or worries about getting banned, but not giving them a reason to actually farm/bot up a ton of Space Bucks to make into real bucks. This takes a gigantic steaming poo poo on the RMT farmer looking to make real bucks off the game. Not only did the market get flooded by every Space Rich player dumping $15 worth of Space Bucks every month, but they also have to peddle a product that involves the risk of a ban, requires a 3rd party transaction, and carries the risk that they will just take the money and not deliver and then max your credit card out. So more competition, and that competition is selling an inherently superior product, so they have to undercut like crazy to move anything at all. The company gets in on the action too, since PLEX and CREDDS cost more than a sub, so they pocket the difference every time one is used to pay a sub. It isn't a scheme to increase player base, it is a scheme to make RMT farmers look for greener pastures.
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Aug 23, 2013 06:05
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Cyclomatic posted:It isn't a scheme to increase player base, it is a scheme to make RMT farmers look for greener pastures. I can't speak for what Eve's intentions were when they first designed PLEX, but I can tell you that in practice within the world of MMOs it works to both increase player base and repel RMT farmers. Those actual results are definitely not ignored by those who have spent money to get this game developed. I guarantee it.
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Aug 23, 2013 13:31
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Yeah about that. You could say the same thing about GW2 gem conversion. $10 in gems will get about 18 gold. $10 to the gold farmers will get you 60. For EvE the rates are closer, but RMT is still significantly better rate of $ -> currency. I'm not convinced that it does much of anything to impede gold RMT. The players that would buy from RMT in the first place are still likely to do it; these players aren't turned off by the threat of bans or account hijacking, and the rates are better. What this does do, is open up more of the player base to spending money on gold as there are people who do not use RMT because they are afraid of consequences or do not want to support RMT actions. VV: I think you are overestimating the size of the group that would RMT in traditional MMOs, and would stop under such a system. People do pay for convenience, but those most influenced by that are extremely unlikely to have used RMT to begin with. My point is not that people won't use the system (they certainly will). My point is the amount of RMT that would go on without the system is hardly going to be much different than the amount of RMT with the system. Most of the players that buy plex/creed are from a demographic that for whatever reason, avoided RMT. Reverend Dr fucked around with this message at 15:56 on Aug 23, 2013 |
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Aug 23, 2013 15:00
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The rates are better but it almost certainly has convinced people to use the in game system despite that. There are people who were RMT customers that never really wanted to be but lacked choice. Now they have a choice and while some still won't stop using RMT due to rate differences there is a slice of the pie that have stopped due to their personal ethics and probably even more people that have stopped because buying in game can feel more convenient. Never underestimate convenience. People pay for it.
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Aug 23, 2013 15:14
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And you don't have to fear getzing banned.
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Aug 23, 2013 15:20
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Lucy Heartfilia posted:And you don't have to fear getzing banned. How often do people get banned for buying gold?
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Aug 23, 2013 17:05
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Rubicon posted:How often do people get banned for buying gold? NCsoft are pretty serious about it. 
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Aug 23, 2013 17:07
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Visidan posted:NCsoft are pretty serious about it. Wait...did he just get a loan from a guild member and get banned for it?
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Aug 23, 2013 17:26
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Rubicon posted:How often do people get banned for buying gold? I got banned once for buying gold. It took them a week. I never tried doing that poo poo again.
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Aug 23, 2013 17:29
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Rubicon posted:Wait...did he just get a loan from a guild member and get banned for it? Yup. Pretty sure it got reversed in an appeal but this is one example amongst many false positives. Sending large sums of gold between accounts for any reason puts one at risk in GW2. Or at least it used to and probably still does.
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Aug 23, 2013 17:36
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Megafunk posted:Everything about their new take on CC seems great except for the stun where you just slam your finger into a button 40 times to get out of it, I bet that poo poo is going to get old fast. I'd rather have it be more like fighters where you have a block meter so if you turtle long enough it just breaks and you can't block for a certain amount of time until it recharges. If they really make you mash buttons in an MMO that's going to get really old really fast, but then again stuns of any kind get really old, really fast, which is why the most popular fighting games don't have any. Overbite posted:No way I'm paying $60 plus a fee, even if this game looks neat. Same, I'll wait until it goes F2P, if it never does I'll just never play the game. It's just too much money to spend on a video game for anyone who is even mildly conservative about spending money. I'm honestly still confused why new PC games are still $60 and how they manage to sell at that price point. Rubicon posted:How often do people get banned for buying gold? If people have the money to buy gold it makes sense in a B2P game to ban them so they buy another copy of the game. It's very very much in NCSoft's interest to be extremely over zealous in banning accounts so I wouldn't be surprised if every person who bought gold was banned. It's not like they're potentially losing a subscription. puberty worked me over fucked around with this message at 17:47 on Aug 23, 2013 |
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Aug 23, 2013 17:43
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Xavier434 posted:Yup. Pretty sure it got reversed in an appeal but this is one example amongst many false positives. Sending large sums of gold between accounts for any reason puts one at risk in GW2. Or at least it used to and probably still does. drat...I had bought gold a few times back when I restarted WoW and never had anything come of it. Just figured they banned the sellers. never bought gold in GW2. Just used the gem conversion a few times when it was at the high levels.
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Aug 23, 2013 17:46
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Rubicon posted:drat...I had bought gold a few times back when I restarted WoW and never had anything come of it. Just figured they banned the sellers. GW2 kinda takes the carpet bomb approach - both seller and buyer get banned and they aren't particularly concerned with whether or not it was actually a RMT exchange. Other games vary, and depends on the circumstances. Like I know a ton of people who've bought plat in EQ/EQ2, isk in EVE, gold in WoW, etc. and never had a problem. The Chrono/PLEX implementations have cut down on it, but the main thing that happened is the gold sellers just slashed prices to about 80% of a Chrono/PLEX for equivalent amount.
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Aug 23, 2013 18:23
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