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In reality, no, but in the West Wing universe maybe. The situation surrounding it was obviously unusual, but in the real world, I don't think it was really legally different from the times Reagan and George W. Bush temporarily handed power to their VPs while they underwent medical procedures.
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Jul 29, 2013 14:01
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tomapot posted:Here's a question for you all. We recently finished the Zoey kidnaping story line and was wondering if Walken got a president number. Like if Bartlett is the 40th(?) president would Walken get the next number even though he was only in office a couple of days?
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Jul 29, 2013 15:54
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Diabolik900 posted:In reality, no, but in the West Wing universe maybe. The situation surrounding it was obviously unusual, but in the real world, I don't think it was really legally different from the times Reagan and George W. Bush temporarily handed power to their VPs while they underwent medical procedures. At the time he did not have a VP did he? Hadn't Hoynes resigned?
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Jul 30, 2013 01:30
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njbeachbum posted:At the time he did not have a VP did he? Hadn't Hoynes resigned? Correct, but as far as the order of succession goes it doesn't matter.
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Jul 30, 2013 04:03
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Diabolik900 posted:In reality, no, but in the West Wing universe maybe. The situation surrounding it was obviously unusual, but in the real world, I don't think it was really legally different from the times Reagan and George W. Bush temporarily handed power to their VPs while they underwent medical procedures. Were they fully sworn in, the book and judge routine etc? Maybe that was the difference in TWW for Walken to be given an official Presidential succession?
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Jul 30, 2013 08:14
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Fazana posted:Were they fully sworn in, the book and judge routine etc? Maybe that was the difference in TWW for Walken to be given an official Presidential succession? I imagine that the swearing in was unique to Walken since up to that point, he had been sitting in an entirely different branch of the government.
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Jul 30, 2013 11:22
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Slashrat posted:I imagine that the swearing in was unique to Walken since up to that point, he had been sitting in an entirely different branch of the government. Then they have that big "you're relieved, Mr. President." line to show that he's taking charge and he's the boss now, but then undercut by having Leo say it to Bartlett straight after. Definitely a great episode, and I still love the scene overall, but those sections annoy me every time.
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Jul 30, 2013 11:44
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I'm going through the fifth season on my most recent run-through of this show...I usually fade out when Sam leaves halfway through season four, but I was getting sick of the first three seasons, so I figured I'd give the fifth season another shot. Just finished the Supremes episode and I forgot how much I adore this episode. Pretty sure I just grinned through the whole thing. Makes up for the rest of the meh season..it isn't as bad as I remembered it being though.
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Aug 17, 2013 23:40
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I could watch Glenn Close and Bill Fichtner respectfully argue all goddamn day.
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Aug 18, 2013 03:13
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isk posted:I could watch Glenn Close and Bill Fichtner respectfully argue all goddamn day. I love that episode!
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Aug 18, 2013 16:40
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I could watch Joe Bethersonton call the Butterball hotline all goddamn day.
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Aug 18, 2013 19:03
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marchantia posted:I'm going through the fifth season on my most recent run-through of this show...I usually fade out when Sam leaves halfway through season four, but I was getting sick of the first three seasons, so I figured I'd give the fifth season another shot. Just finished the Supremes episode and I forgot how much I adore this episode. Pretty sure I just grinned through the whole thing. Makes up for the rest of the meh season..it isn't as bad as I remembered it being though. The Supremes is the best episode the show did from late season 4 until the campaign trail. Also, this is from several pages ago, but: Waffles Inc. posted:"And I would bet all of the money <beat> in my pockets, against all of the money <beat> in your pockets, that it was Leo. Who no one elected." This line from 17 People is easily one of the best line readings in the entire show.
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Aug 18, 2013 21:20
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LesterGroans posted:This line from 17 People is easily one of the best line readings in the entire show. It's funny that Toby isn't my favorite, but my favorite lines are all his. One of the most brilliant few minutes of the whole series is the sound of that tennis ball thwacking against the wall as he stares at Leo, after that whole montage of Toby realizing something fishy is going on. If I watch that 100 more times I'll still be stunned at the 101st.
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Aug 18, 2013 21:52
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On my second complete watch of this show Toby has become my clear favorite character. I'm watching 20 Hours in America now and the combination of him, Josh, and Donna getting themselves lost is priceless. Shame what they did to him near the end.
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Aug 18, 2013 22:15
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LesterGroans posted:
That whole sequence in the Oval Office is probably my favorite in the series, though a close second is Leo at the end of the press conference in Two Cathedrals: "Watch this". And that sequence, from 17 People right through to Two Cathedrals, is also the best illustration of how the series slipped as it went on. Two Cathedrals trusted the audience enough to throw an unsubtitled Latin rant at them, and it worked. By the time we get into Season Six, people can barely move from one room to the next without some sort of caption being put up. As a lot of people have mentioned, after about Season 4, when it worked, it really worked (The Supremes, and the Election Day two-parter in the last season), but when they miss, they really, REALLY miss (Access).
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Aug 19, 2013 05:45
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Chamberk posted:On my second complete watch of this show Toby has become my clear favorite character. I'm watching 20 Hours in America now and the combination of him, Josh, and Donna getting themselves lost is priceless. Shame what they did to him near the end. I'm Toby Ziegler... I work at the White House. That show is at its best when the protagonists are flawed, and that's an example. Donna pointing out everything they missed and how they were focused on the politics was great. I just started watching Season 5 too, it's like a balloon slowly deflating on my tv screen. And the way the characterizations just jump off the map is actually kind of amazing. Anyway, the Supremes happens and that makes up for it but it is still a shock the drop in quality. (I really like seasons 6 and 7 though). Straight away the Republicans are like "WHY DIDN'T YOU TELL ANYONE YOU SHOT SHARIF?" and the correct answer would have been "It was national security, we weren't told until like five minutes ago" instead Josh goes "Reasons!" and the Republicans go "LOL MS!" and then Josh walks out and broods and go "We made... a mistake. What if they like him better?"  Despite the fact the President beat the guy they were running against by a massive landslide. 
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Aug 19, 2013 11:38
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LordPants posted:I'm Toby Ziegler... I work at the White House. Wait wait wait, unless its a New Sorkin show and said protagonist is a woman.
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Aug 19, 2013 16:45
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LordPants posted:I just started watching Season 5 too, it's like a balloon slowly deflating on my tv screen. And the way the characterizations just jump off the map is actually kind of amazing. Anyway, the Supremes happens and that makes up for it but it is still a shock the drop in quality. (I really like seasons 6 and 7 though). I want to dislike this arc, and yet it gave us John Goodman. Season 5 has its flaws, but I think it's best viewed through the lens of how the administration works without Sam. Josh runs unchecked and self-destructs, Toby loses his goddamned mind trying to run the show by himself, CJ becomes the moral voice in senior staff meetings, and the administration flounders around without direction.
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Aug 19, 2013 23:01
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TheBigBad posted:Wait wait wait, unless its a New Sorkin show and said protagonist is a woman. There's a difference between a flawed character and a sexist caricature.
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Aug 19, 2013 23:30
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TheBigBad posted:Wait wait wait, unless its a New Sorkin show and said protagonist is a woman. Exactly. Josh was "win at all costs", Sam was super idealistic, Toby was Toby. But all the characters in newsrooms are walking Sorkin Erections (Sorkections?) who are perfect at the job, unless, they're a woman in which case they're useless. And further, West Wing was always about conflict "Is passing this foreign affairs bill worth incentivising women to marry the fathers of their children" "Should I kill a known terrorist without trial, or should he be allowed to keep killing people" etc etc. In the Newsroom, there is no conflict. It's just "Republicans suck". It's also super confusing considering Moneyball was "Change v Traditionalism" and "Sticking to your beliefs" and the Social Network was about "Friendship verses Business" so he obviously still understands how to write conflict, it's just absent in the Newsroom. Sorry for the derail, but I think it highlights why the West Wing worked so well.
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Aug 20, 2013 02:55
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Not to continue this derail but The Newsroom's central issue is that there is a fundamental lack of conflict that isn't personal. Like you said, Sorkin can write great conflicts and the West Wing thrives on it. But every conflict in Newsroom revolves around romantic relationships which Sorkin doesn't do very well.
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Aug 20, 2013 04:20
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Thwomp posted:Not to continue this derail but The Newsroom's central issue is that there is a fundamental lack of conflict that isn't personal. I think he killed with Teri Polo and Sports Night.
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Aug 20, 2013 05:37
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LordPants posted:But all the characters in newsrooms are walking Sorkin Erections (Sorkections?) who are perfect at the job, unless, they're a woman in which case they're useless. No, everyone in the Newsroom thread keeps saying that in a general sense, but it also doesn't match what they're complaining about specifically. They say all the women are stupid, yet can't stop talking about how much Sloan kicks rear end and is the best written character. And they say all the men are perfect, yet won't stop talking about how annoying it is to watch Jim screw up so much. All the characters are flawed in their own way. The only character that's portrayed as "perfect" (but clearly isn't) is Will, but since he's the host of the show, and is generally acknowledged to be an egotistical rear end, that's kind of understandable from a narrative point of view. Don screws up just as much as MacKenzie does, and MacKenzie is good at her job just as often as Don (just as an example, since they both play producers of their respective shows on the show). But when she does it, that thread starts screaming sexism. Sorry, not trying to say it's as good as The West Wing, because it's not, and I do apologize for continuing this derail, but that thread is just the worst place to be if you don't believe The Newsroom is "the most sexist show in the history of television", and that that point is a proven verifiable fact. It has it's moments, like literally all of television, but it's not a standard bearer for sexism on television like that thread makes it out to be. thrawn527 fucked around with this message at 15:55 on Aug 20, 2013 |
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Aug 20, 2013 15:53
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thrawn527 posted:No, everyone in the Newsroom thread keeps saying that in a general sense, but it also doesn't match what they're complaining about specifically. They say all the women are stupid, yet can't stop talking about how much Sloan kicks rear end and is the best written character. And they say all the men are perfect, yet won't stop talking about how annoying it is to watch Jim screw up so much.
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Aug 20, 2013 16:30
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WoG posted:I'm not going near that thread, either, but don't pretend they're the only ones calling out the show's obvious imbalance. The men don't break down into hysterics at every turn, and need the nearest woman to shake some sense back into them. Jim's "screw-ups" involve sticking to his principles to a fault, and being too gentlemanly; Maggie's involve screaming at strangers and breaking down every other episode. I just watched the newest one last night, and the moment they showed MacKenzie behind the wheel (looking exasperated), my immediate reaction was, "ugh, what's she going to crash into?" Ten seconds later: garbage cans. To be fair, McKenzie is British and has lived in New York City for a significant amount of time, so it's possible she doesn't have that much experience driving American-style.
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Aug 20, 2013 21:07
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thrawn527 posted:All the characters are flawed in their own way. The only character that's portrayed as "perfect" (but clearly isn't) is Will, but since he's the host of the show, and is generally acknowledged to be an egotistical rear end, that's kind of understandable from a narrative point of view. Consider the Romney campaign bus: "Can I have five minutes with the candidate?" Etc, which ends up with Jim being kicked off the bus. Wow Jim messed up there! But he didn't, because we know that Sorkin thinks that Jim was right. When Stackhouse is thinking about running for president Josh says "Stackhouse is taking the President's votes!" to which Amy replies "They're not the presidents votes". Which is great because it highlights that Josh believes everyone to the left of them should just vote for them because they're better than the other guy. Josh is wrong in this case, but the show doesn't make you think that he's right. In fact, that's something the comes up often, and with Amy which feeds into Josh's "win at all cost mentality". When has someone been wrong about something like that in the Newsroom? Occupy? No, they've torn that down every episode. Genoa? Well, probably, but we understand that the guy responsible is not part of the proper newsroom team. It could just be that I don't remember any of the plot threads from the newsroom. Oh wait, the Repulican debate. They didn't get what they wanted with that (With a cameo from the Dr from the West Wing who treats Josh!). But god the show makes it clear that they were morally right in the end. There's another. Sloan with the Japanese plant? Well, we all know that Sloan was doing the right thing by telling the truth, even if she was off the record. Oh, "Women are useless" is just a joke about how the Newsroom thread over-read everything as being sexist (when it isn't there) and then call each other autistic when they don't see or hear it a certain way.  Also I was wondering, In S2E1 "not stupid enough to nominate a academic from New England" or something, what are they referring to? I mean, other than Bartlet?
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Aug 21, 2013 02:39
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LordPants posted:Also I was wondering, In S2E1 "not stupid enough to nominate a academic from New England" or something, what are they referring to? I mean, other than Bartlet? Wink-wink to the audience about Michael Dukakis and Paul Tsongas, who wouldn't exist in the West Wing universe. In said West Wing universe it could have been anyone.
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Aug 21, 2013 03:31
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I just got to Season 6. The scene where Leo suffers a heart attack in the woods is so disorienting and viscerally painful.
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Aug 21, 2013 15:01
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Naet posted:disorienting and viscerally painful. This serves as a great description of that entire arc actually.
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Aug 23, 2013 02:54
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For me the best Leo lines will always be when he's threatening C.J. over the picture of Bartlett and a goat for Heifer International. "I'm gonna hide snakes in your car, [...] You're never gonna know where they are, or if you got them all out". The inflection and the way it's done is so good. Junior G-man fucked around with this message at 12:50 on Aug 23, 2013 |
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Aug 23, 2013 12:47
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I watched Nöel a couple of days ago and Ellie just now. They both make me tear up at the end.
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Aug 23, 2013 20:56
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brylcreem posted:I watched Nöel a couple of days ago and Ellie just now. Good god, Nöel loving DESTROYS me. So loving good. "This guy's walking down the street and falls in a hole..."
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Aug 23, 2013 20:59
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Yeah, John Spencer sells that speech so well. "The only thing you ever had to do to make me happy ..." and Nina Siemaszko's face just kinda crumbles up. And then so does mine.
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Aug 23, 2013 21:07
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Junior G-man posted:For me the best Leo lines will always be when he's threatening C.J. over the picture of Bartlett and a goat for Heifer International. While that is brilliant, the best Leo scene in my mind is still when he interviews Ainsley. Hell, he even includes a jab (this time quite literally) at Margaret and gets in some classic G&S wordplay comedy!
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Aug 24, 2013 00:29
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I posted this in the chat thread because I didn't realize there was an active thread, and forgive me if this is a topic that's been brought up a zillion times before. I'm watching for the first time and am a few episodes into season seven and I can't get over Josh's complete ineptitude as Santos's campaign manager. Every single piece of advice he has given him has been wrong, and Santos is bailed out over and over again by just ignoring him and then giving some speech that galvanizes the electorate. It seems like it's been a long time, if ever, that we've seen Josh actually be able to do anything, and I've always gotten the impression that the series is constantly talking about how good Josh is while showing him get consistently foiled, frustrated, and rescued by the rest of the staff.
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Aug 25, 2013 00:42
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Honestly, most of the stuff Josh tries over the entire 7 seasons fails or gets rescued miraculously. Season 5 is the best for this when he gets a senator to leave the Democratic party (although I have some sympathy for him here, given he didn't know what that moron intern was doing) and then, when brought back from the cold by Bartlett to help with the Shutdown impasse, only has his 'WALK DOWN THE ROAD LIKE A MAN OF THE PEOPLE' deal work when Haffley and the other Republicans act like idiots by keep them waiting outside the door. I don't know if it was planned that the show promotes victory through utter incompetence, but it certainly turns out that way where Josh is involved.
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Aug 25, 2013 11:43
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Victory through incompetence was my experience of working in politics. I rewatched the show after I finished doing that and all of it felt so real.
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Aug 25, 2013 13:28
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Asiina posted:
I just got to this on my first trip through the series and I bawled like a little girl.
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Aug 28, 2013 00:09
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Man, you guys were right about what they did to Leo in S5...they ruined the character so bad.
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Aug 28, 2013 06:25
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sba posted:Man, you guys were right about what they did to Leo in S5...they ruined the character so bad. You watch it for what John Spencer did with what they gave him.
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Aug 28, 2013 06:33
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