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gender illusionist posted:Given that pan-humans and drones can join a group mind to become a Mind so I wouldn't put it in quite those terms. I got the impression that that sort of collective consciousness is pretty distinct from a capital-M Mind. The Minds seem to think so, at least. Also, I forget if I've mentioned it here before, but does anyone else think that human-equivalent intelligence for drones is basically something they say to make humans feel better? I mean, maybe humans and drones have comparable limits to the maximum complexity they can understand, but drones think so much faster, which has to count for something.
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Aug 19, 2013 18:52
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I thought that there was a pretty continuous spectrum of drone/AI intelligences in the Culture, ranging from more than human (for some SC operatives and such), through genuinely human-equivalent types, down to barely sentient ones that performed menial jobs the Culture didn't want to burden a smarter intellect with. Can't immediately recall if or where this was specifically addressed, though. vvvvvvvv Ah, right, that's what I was thinking of. And yeah, we do only have the Minds' and drones' word for it. Still (while I usually don't privilege authorial intentions), my reading of all that can't help but be colored by the fact that banks wrote the Culture, warts and all, as his own utopia. ZekeNY fucked around with this message at 19:59 on Aug 19, 2013 |
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Aug 19, 2013 18:56
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Yeah, they've got an actual numerical scale for that. A drone could be a 1.0 equivalence of human intelligence, for example, and a floating tray would be 0.01 equivalent, or something to that effect. His point is that it's the drones and Minds telling us that they are like that, even though (as he points out) just the fact that a drone can think so much quicker would make it inherently more intelligent than a human unless it's dumbed down specifically and in quite tedious ways to remain equal to us. I think it's more of a frame of reference they tell us so that we can at least imagine we understand drone/mind/AI intelligence in some way and feel better about our overlords, even though it probably is at best a half truth because intelligence in itself is such a complex concept that having a numerical scale is in many ways downright insulting to everyone/everything involved.
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Aug 19, 2013 19:13
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Just wrapped up Excession. It's sort of weird that I've now read five Culture books and none of them are Use of Weapons but it's next on my list. One of the reasons I want to check it out is that afaik it's got a dude working for Special Circumstances that actually has some experience and familiarity with them. A lot of the times, the human component of an SC operation (Gurgeh, Ulver, Genar-Hofoen, the woman from Matter) is super new to it, unsure if they're working for SC at all, or otherwise just... not really a veteran of the SC apparatus. So even though Zakalwe is a contractor, afaik he actually has some familiarity with how things go. As for Excession itself, it was pretty cool. It explained just enough about why the Excession would be mind-boggling to justify the narrative being built around it without getting entirely bogged down in incomprehensible dissertations on hyperspace. I'll probably understand it a bit better if I reread it and am able to keep track of which ships know what and are part of which conspiracy, though.
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Aug 21, 2013 03:03
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John Magnum posted:As for Excession itself ... I'll probably understand it a bit better if I reread it and am able to keep track of which ships know what and are part of which conspiracy, though. I read it a few months ago and recently finished the audiobook, and I think I'm just going to need a diagram or color-coded text or something. I couldn't keep the ITG straight at all.
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Aug 21, 2013 03:07
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Toast Museum posted:I read it a few months ago and recently finished the audiobook, and I think I'm just going to need a diagram or color-coded text or something. Goon project?
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Aug 21, 2013 03:29
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Finished Whit this morning. Very different from any other IMB (or IB) stuff I've read. Very immediate, very funny, and a real page turner. It is not intellectually taxing at all, and just flows so easily. It's almost like he tried to write for a younger audience. I really enjoyed it. It's not profound or epic or anything like that, but it is super engaging.
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Aug 24, 2013 01:16
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Those On My Left posted:Finished Whit this morning. Very different from any other IMB (or IB) stuff I've read. Very immediate, very funny, and a real page turner. It is not intellectually taxing at all, and just flows so easily. It's almost like he tried to write for a younger audience. I really enjoyed it. It's not profound or epic or anything like that, but it is super engaging.
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Aug 24, 2013 02:17
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Seaside Loafer posted:Yep, I think [Whit's] the best of non culture books You clearly meant to write "Espedair Street." But really, you should just read all the Iain Banks books.
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Aug 24, 2013 02:55
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Guys they are all good, there is literally no excuse to not read them all. vvv Order doesn't matter. Read them all. withak fucked around with this message at 03:55 on Aug 24, 2013 |
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Aug 24, 2013 03:40
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ulmont posted:You clearly meant to write "Espedair Street." But really, you should just read all the Iain Banks books. I haven't read any of the non-M books yet -- does it matter what order I read them in? Are any of them better as a first impression, or is order of publication as good as any other way?
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Aug 24, 2013 03:43
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ZekeNY posted:I haven't read any of the non-M books yet -- does it matter what order I read them in? Are any of them better as a first impression, or is order of publication as good as any other way? withak posted:vvv Order doesn't matter. Read them all. What withak said.
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Aug 24, 2013 04:21
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I think The Crow Road is probably the best one to start with. Although Whit is also great. One thing about Whit that came across really strongly to me is how spot-on Banks got all the local folklore from the Western Isles when he's mentioning stuff like how the inhabitants of Harris are popularly said to be descended from survivors of a shipwrecked Spanish galleon in the storm that destroyed the Armada, or just the phenomenon of Indians and Pakistanis running mobile shops out of vans in the days before the locals had readily available cars of their own to get to shops. He famously insisted that he never did proper research for books, but this stuff shows that he knew quite a lot about the islands just from his personal experience and talking to people. It's nice to read that coming across in his books, as an islander.
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Aug 24, 2013 10:03
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I enjoyed Whit a lot too. It also provided what is likely to be a unique experience for me. The book mentions, in passing, a real life building on the banks of the River Forth. Reader, I was sitting in that very building, on my lunch break, the very first time I read that passage.
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Aug 25, 2013 21:14
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John Charity Spring posted:I think The Crow Road is probably the best one to start with. Although Whit is also great. Crow Road it is, then. As bummed out as I still am that he's dead, at least I've got this group of novels left to discover.
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Aug 26, 2013 03:23
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A friend of mine recently finished Use of Weapons, and we've got different interpretations about a particular bit of it. I always assumed that Elethiomel's assumption of Cheradenine's name was an entirely conscious decision, a way to bury his past and his crimes. A bit of subterfuge and trickery. I think there might even be a reference somewhere to him doing it because it would make it easier for him to escape. My friend, however, thinks that Elethiomel goes round the bend - driven mad by what he does to Darkense, and the way he wins that war. He reckons that Elethiomel assumes Cheradenine's identity entirely unconsciously, as a sort of 'going mad'. This kind of changes how each of us look at the book. I saw Zakalwe's entire quest as some sort of quest for redemption. He's disgusted at the way he's used his powers in the past, and so is trying to use them to 'do the right thing' - and he tries this with the Culture, and then, later, on his own. I thought he was after Livueta because what he really wants is her forgiveness, because he is truly sorry and disgusted with himself over what he did to Darkense. My friend thinks that there's no way Elethiomel could ever expect Livueta to forgive him. He reckons that Zakalwe thinks he's Cheradenine, and that's why he's even bothering to try to set things right with Livueta - because he doesn't know he's responsible for the one thing she could never ever forgive him for. What do you think?
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Aug 26, 2013 03:31
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I think you're both half-right. He definitely went mad and thinks he's Zakalwe; there are a number of passages in the book where it's really obvious that he's suppressing the memory and isn't consciously aware of it. But he has moments of lucidity when he's forcibly reminded -- for instance, when his body is regrown and he remembers the significance of no longer having a chip of Darkense's bones embedded in his chest, and presumably when he begs Livueta for forgiveness as well.
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Aug 26, 2013 03:41
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I'm pretty much with Tuxedo. He really does think he's Zakalwe, but nearly all of his drive and motivation is to deal with his guilt and grief for Elethiomel's actions. He can't admit to it consciously (except very, very rarely), but his subconscious remembers and won't let him forget.
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Aug 26, 2013 15:21
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ZekeNY posted:Crow Road it is, then. As bummed out as I still am that he's dead, at least I've got this group of novels left to discover. The Crow Road also has the best opening line of any novel ever.
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Aug 26, 2013 18:42
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Zalakwe posted:The Crow Road also has the best opening line of any novel ever. What's that?
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Aug 26, 2013 22:15
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MikeJF posted:What's that? "It was the day my grandmother exploded."
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Aug 26, 2013 22:25
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Those On My Left posted:"It was the day my grandmother exploded." Well, I'm sold.
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Aug 26, 2013 23:24
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Zalakwe posted:The Crow Road also has the best opening line of any novel ever. I remember reading that and thinking that any literary agent reading the manuscript would have felt their heart leap for joy at that opening line.
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Aug 27, 2013 08:46
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John Charity Spring posted:I remember reading that and thinking that any literary agent reading the manuscript would have felt their heart leap for joy at that opening line. The Crow Road was the first Banks book I read. Probably the only author I could say has ever had me by the first line.
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Aug 29, 2013 12:52
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I've always been confused as to why exactly making a chair out of someone is so particularly horrible. I mean, she's dead. Presumably the carpentry happened afterwards? I was never really [spoiler]horrified by that, just a little weirded out. I mean I get that the chair was a thing from their teenager times when she had sex with the other guy and it was hurtful but stilllll... It was almost comically weird. I dunno I guess I'm really not sympathetic to people who make political decisions stemming from personal traumas. Zakalwe's suicide was a profoundly stupid and selfish decision considering his leadership role. Better? 
Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 06:04 on Aug 30, 2013 |
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Aug 29, 2013 16:03
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Arglebargle III posted:Use of Weapons spoilers EDIT: Actually it sounds like you haven't finished the book. Finish the book, then think on it again. Don't read my spoiler if this is the case. Use of Weapons big spoilers in tags. The whole deal behind it is that Zakalwe(as we know him) is suppressing and trying to atone for the guilt of actually having made a chair out of someone he loved as a weapon in a war. He places a much greater psychological weight on it than otherwise, because he is the one that bears the guilt for the act. VVV Spoilered, yeah. Also removed quoted spoilers. I was clearly not paying attention when posting earlier. Cluncho McChunk fucked around with this message at 23:04 on Aug 29, 2013 |
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Aug 29, 2013 16:27
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^^^ I was referring to the post you quoted, but I was to slow. That post gives away some critical plot points in unlabeled spoiler tags, then it gives away even more without any tags. Arglebargle III posted:MASSIVE SPOILERS for Use of Weapons You might want to spoiler more of your post, and maybe mention what book you're referencing so people can decide whether or not to click. Avulsion fucked around with this message at 17:08 on Aug 29, 2013 |
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Aug 29, 2013 16:28
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Arglebargle III posted:I've always been confused as to why exactly making a chair out of someone is so particularly horrible. I mean, she's dead. Presumably the carpentry happened afterwards? I was never really horrified by that, just a little weirded out. I mean I get that the chair was a thing from their teenager times when she had sex with the other guy and it was hurtful but stilllll... It was almost comically weird. It's the blatant, callous objectification of the act that's so chilling - especially considering he does it to someone he made an otherwise convincing pretense of loving. It's taking a living, breathing, thinking human being and turning them into a mundane piece of furniture. It's not so much about the suffering of the subject (as you say, already dead) but the existential horror of becoming so utterly, banally inanimate. And at the same time, it's not just the act itself, it's the creativity behind it - it takes a twisted but powerful imagination to come up with something so novel and cruel. EDIT - Everything spoilered just in case. Barry Foster fucked around with this message at 22:14 on Aug 29, 2013 |
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Aug 29, 2013 17:32
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Barry Foster posted:It's the blatant, callous objectification of the act that's so chilling - especially considering he does it to someone he made an otherwise convincing pretense of loving. It's taking a living, breathing, thinking human being and turning them into a mundane piece of furniture. It's not so much about the suffering of the subject (as you say, already dead) but the existential horror of becoming so utterly, banally inanimate. And at the same time, it's not just the act itself, it's the creativity behind it - it takes a twisted but powerful imagination to come up with something so novel and cruel. And all, more or less, for the purpose of winning a war. For me, that Use of it as a Weapon (geddit?) was pretty thematically, important, especially w/r/t the Culture's treatment of its tools.
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Aug 29, 2013 20:13
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e: nm
Those On My Left fucked around with this message at 06:20 on Aug 30, 2013 |
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Aug 29, 2013 21:43
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ZekeNY posted:Crow Road it is, then. As bummed out as I still am that he's dead, at least I've got this group of novels left to discover. I think crow road, steep approach and stonemouth form a nice sort-of-trilogy. I find all of them complement use of weapons and matter, especially. All the non-M are very good, but Crow Road is transcendental, wonderful. It makes everything else look better by relation. It's endlessly moving, the conclusion is perfect - it is wonderful.
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Aug 29, 2013 21:51
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lenoon posted:I think crow road, steep approach and stonemouth form a nice sort-of-trilogy. I find all of them complement use of weapons and matter, especially. Yes, I've enjoyed every book of his I've read so far (although I haven't touched the ones conventionally regarded as weak, like Canal Dreams or Song of Stone or Dead Air) but The Crow Road stands over and above it all. It's my favourite of Banks' books, genre or non-genre. And the BBC adaptation is pretty drat good too, although it has quite a different tone to it since the 'murder mystery' angle is put front-and-centre, with the disappearance of Rory forming even the opening of the first episode and very much played up as the central conflict due to the demands of TV.
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Aug 29, 2013 23:35
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Trauma Tank posted:The whole deal behind it is that Zakalwe(as we know him) is suppressing and trying to atone for the guilt of actually having made a chair out of someone he loved as a weapon in a war. He places a much greater psychological weight on it than otherwise, because he is the one that bears the guilt for the act. Yeah I do get that. But did he really love her? The book is deliberately vague about which personality is dominant, the gifted amoral tactician or the more normal psyche. I think the evidence of their teenage tryst is just proof that even in his teenage years he was using her as a weapon to hurt his rival. I don't believe he really loved her in the first place. The big problem with is still... a chair? Really?
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Aug 30, 2013 06:17
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I've never been in this position but I'm pretty sure I could, eventually, get over the shattering loss of my closest loved one by a childhood rival, assuming s/he was brought to some kind of justice. But if I came home and found that loved one's bones made into a chair and waiting for me in my apartment I'm pretty sure I would have the psychotic break to end all psychoses.
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Aug 30, 2013 06:21
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General Battuta posted:I've never been in this position but I'm pretty sure I could, eventually, get over the shattering loss of my closest loved one by a childhood rival, assuming s/he was brought to some kind of justice. But if I came home and found that loved one's bones made into a chair and waiting for me in my apartment I'm pretty sure I would have the psychotic break to end all psychoses. Yeah, I really don't get what's so hard about this.
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Aug 30, 2013 06:26
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Arglebargle III posted:
It's been a while, but i'm fairly sure my interpretation at the time was that it was meant to remind Zakalwe(original flavor) of the old wound between them. The chair that meant something to him was where Elothemiel took her from him once already, and now he's reminding Zakalwe of that as he takes her away again, this time irrevocably. He knows the other well enough to know what his weaknesses are, and how he can hit him to make him shatter. The chair as a chair is irrelevant except to call up that reminder and get inside his enemy's psyche. If Zakalwe had caught them going at it in a bed, he'd have been the Bedmaker, and presumably Elothemiel would have needed to get a lot cleverer with his carpentry to stretch the supply of bone. Also his epithet would have been far less sinister.
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Aug 30, 2013 07:00
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Ceebees posted:It's been a while, but i'm fairly sure my interpretation at the time was that it was meant to remind Zakalwe(original flavor) of the old wound between them. The chair that meant something to him was where Elothemiel took her from him once already, and now he's reminding Zakalwe of that as he takes her away again, this time irrevocably. He knows the other well enough to know what his weaknesses are, and how he can hit him to make him shatter. I don't want to add too much to this dogpile Arglebargle, but I think Ceebees is on the right track here. The gruesomeness of Elothemiel turning Darckense into a chair is macabre, but only part of what makes it so horrible. What made me rock back in my seat was how he was using it to remind Zakalwe of this specific injury. Zakalwe was pursuing the whole civil war because Elothemiel had her, and that day he walked in on them in the summer house was the day it went from being a childhood rivalry to something bigger and worse. Also, I think you might be mistaken about his feelings for her. He was reduced to tears by the loss of the shard of bone that he had carried since the day Darckense was shot by the assassins, and he obviously cared a great deal what Livueta thought since he kept going through hell and high water for the Culture, just to get the chance to beg for her forgiveness. That was my interpretation anyway. Don't get too hung up on the chair itself, instead of what it symbolized. blah, black bar city
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Aug 30, 2013 08:27
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I'm reading The State of the Art, this is fun! First three stories: Road of Skulls - funny A Gift from the Culture - good but kind of a downer of an ending Odd Attachment - funny and disturbing Did Banks ever write more short fiction or is this collection the entire body of his short work? edit: I really wish I had the edition with "A Few Notes on the Culture" in it. I even ordered that one online when I found it cheap, but they cancelled my order for no reason 
Hedrigall fucked around with this message at 12:30 on Aug 30, 2013 |
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Aug 30, 2013 12:22
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"Piece" is a well written bit in that. I wish there was another anthology of short stories (though that sounds like something that might get published in the next few years, which is sad)
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Aug 30, 2013 14:55
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What ever happened to the plans to make a movie out of "A Gift from the Culture"? It's far from my favorite Culture story, but it's more filmable than most.
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Aug 30, 2013 15:26
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