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Cold and Ugly posted:But it's a silly proposition tied to a ridiculous conception of the US prison system as some kind of bizarre torture camps, rather than, you know, cramped quarters and network TV and wasted time. Your characterization of the worst perils to be found in the US prison system really indicates that you haven't read the rest (or really any) of the thread or that you aren't being genuine. Also, time is an unshakably limited quantity for everyone and the vast majority of people I know always want more of it. Why is "wasted time" on the scale of years and decades something to be trivialized, especially for nonviolent and victimless offenses?
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Aug 27, 2013 15:33
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Cold and Ugly posted:I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "Rush and Co.", man... but I would be very surprised if there was a lot of evidence for the proposition that there are straight up physical torture camps operating in the united states. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solitary_confinement Now be silent.
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Aug 27, 2013 15:34
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Cold and Ugly posted:Well, obviously it isn't Finland. And the threat of physical harm is present, because you're sharing a space with a lot of other felons. But i'd be willing to bet that the number of guys who do their year or two and escape unharmed vastly outnumbers those who suffer any lasting harm, certainly anything equivalent to the loss of a limb or the ability to poo poo right. That's funny. No exaggeration: every person I know who spent time in prison (and some who were in jails) came out with serious, lasting harm. Most of them have PTSD, physical injuries of one kind or another, or suffer very badly from institutionalization. You live a charmed life without exposure to the results of our prison system. I wish you could open your eyes and really SEE what is done in our names.
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Aug 27, 2013 15:34
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Cold and Ugly posted:Well, obviously it isn't Finland. And the threat of physical harm is present, because you're sharing a space with a lot of other felons. But i'd be willing to bet that the number of guys who do their year or two and escape unharmed vastly outnumbers those who suffer any lasting harm, certainly anything equivalent to the loss of a limb or the ability to poo poo right. But talking about it in terms of 'cramped and bad tv' is just obviously stupid and leaving out the billion other things. 'cramped' isn't just cramped, it's 'often have to poo poo in front of other people, masturbate in front of other people'. It's 'have no personal belongings that can't be taken away from you on a whim'. It's 'bribe people not to attack you'. The amount of physical abuse that goes on in prisons is very high. There's a reportage problem, but a very conservative estimate is that, per year, one out of twenty prisoners is in a serious, injury-causing fight, and one out of ten is sexually assaulted. So sure, saying "I'd rather lose a limb than serve a year", I don't agree with that. But claiming prison is just cramped with bad TV is just pants-on-head dumb.
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Aug 27, 2013 15:37
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Warchicken posted:I guess if your definition of 'unharmed' is limited to 'still exists and didn't get too many scars, this would be true. The prison system lasts well outside of prison, though, and if you are a felon then sorry, you are hosed for life. There is no such thing as being "unharmed". The number of felons who got out 'unharmed' is zero. When I say unharmed I mean physically unharmed, carrying on the emphasis on physical harm because that post put me on to ideas of people lopping off limbs and all. Clearly there are other consequences to committing a felony. It's much more difficult to find a job, you can't own a gun, you can't vote, etc. Do you mean psychological damage as well? Because that's probably an issue for some people who do time. Arpaio is clearly a sadistic piece of poo poo. Saying that, my point is that the fact that there are sadistic sheriffs and corrupt CO's in this world doesn't make the entire criminal justice system a modern hell on earth. Most people who do prison time won't spend a minute in "solitary" or really face serious threats to their life.
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Aug 27, 2013 15:40
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Cold and Ugly posted:When I say unharmed I mean physically unharmed, carrying on the emphasis on physical harm because that post put me on to ideas of people lopping off limbs and all. Clearly there are other consequences to committing a felony. It's much more difficult to find a job, you can't own a gun, you can't vote, etc. Do you mean psychological damage as well? Because that's probably an issue for some people who do time. So individual, specific evidence isn't enough, every prisoner has to have some huge amount of physical trauma, defined by you? Just stop.
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Aug 27, 2013 15:48
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Obdicut posted:But talking about it in terms of 'cramped and bad tv' is just obviously stupid and leaving out the billion other things. 'cramped' isn't just cramped, it's 'often have to poo poo in front of other people, masturbate in front of other people'. It's 'have no personal belongings that can't be taken away from you on a whim'. It's 'bribe people not to attack you'. You're right, and that's unfortunately a pretty accurate summary of what a person might have to deal with during a prison term. Clearly there's a lot of room for improvement in the system, although i'm not sure how that might be done. Really my only issue with the tone of the thread, and specifically what that one guy posted, is the ridiculous hyperbole. Yes, the system has very serious problems, but a person claiming here that they'd rather lose a limb than spend any amount of time in prison puts the conversation into such a silly place that it's impossible for it to be taken seriously.
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Aug 27, 2013 15:51
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Cold and Ugly posted:When I say unharmed I mean physically unharmed, carrying on the emphasis on physical harm because that post put me on to ideas of people lopping off limbs and all. Clearly there are other consequences to committing a felony. It's much more difficult to find a job, you can't own a gun, you can't vote, etc. Do you mean psychological damage as well? Because that's probably an issue for some people who do time. Move them goalposts buddy. All you're doing is showing everyone that you're ignorant as gently caress about this and aren't willing to consider the fact that maybe you don't know what you're talking about. If you really believe these things then you just flat out have not looked into it at all past watching law and order. Hell, even netflix documentaries go into enough detail to make you sound like a dumbass. Go back to the first post, and read from there. I say this because it is obvious you have not already done that. empty whippet box fucked around with this message at 15:53 on Aug 27, 2013 |
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Aug 27, 2013 15:51
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Cold and Ugly posted:You're right, and that's unfortunately a pretty accurate summary of what a person might have to deal with during a prison term. Clearly there's a lot of room for improvement in the system, although i'm not sure how that might be done. Really my only issue with the tone of the thread, and specifically what that one guy posted, is the ridiculous hyperbole. Yes, the system has very serious problems, but a person claiming here that they'd rather lose a limb than spend any amount of time in prison puts the conversation into such a silly place that it's impossible for it to be taken seriously. If it was a surgical amputation, yes I would have to consider it. I can still get jobs with one arm. And the amputation won't give me HIV. It's not even hyperbole, if anything it's a rather clever metaphor for what prison takes from you.
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Aug 27, 2013 15:53
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SedanChair posted:So individual, specific evidence isn't enough, every prisoner has to have some huge amount of physical trauma, defined by you? Just stop. It was around the point where you posted a link to a wikipedia article about solitary confinement that I realized that you weren't interested in conversation and a differing point of view made you uncomfortable. Anyway man shut the gently caress up. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 27, 2013 15:53
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Cold and Ugly posted:You're right, and that's unfortunately a pretty accurate summary of what a person might have to deal with during a prison term. Clearly there's a lot of room for improvement in the system, although i'm not sure how that might be done. Really my only issue with the tone of the thread, and specifically what that one guy posted, is the ridiculous hyperbole. Yes, the system has very serious problems, but a person claiming here that they'd rather lose a limb than spend any amount of time in prison puts the conversation into such a silly place that it's impossible for it to be taken seriously. That's that person. If I were, say, a small attractive eighteen year old blonde blue eyed boy going into the system, I'd rather lose a limb because the chance of repeated rape are really, really high, which comes with a side of high likelihood of HIV and Heppping it up. It depends who you are, I guess. If he'd said "Everyone ought to prefer losing a limb" then sure, but he just said he would, right? In fact, he said he'd have a toe cut off. Which, you know, I would too. My toes are broken-rear end balls of gristle and bone at this point, though.
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Aug 27, 2013 15:57
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Cold and Ugly posted:You're right, and that's unfortunately a pretty accurate summary of what a person might have to deal with during a prison term. Clearly there's a lot of room for improvement in the system, although i'm not sure how that might be done. Really my only issue with the tone of the thread, and specifically what that one guy posted, is the ridiculous hyperbole. Yes, the system has very serious problems, but a person claiming here that they'd rather lose a limb than spend any amount of time in prison puts the conversation into such a silly place that it's impossible for it to be taken seriously. When a person says that being thrown into a place where there's a good chance to suffer from rape, violence, mental disorders and the stripping of civil rights aren't serious enough problems to consider extreme measures to avoid it puts the conversation into such a silly place that it's impossible for it to be taken seriously.
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Aug 27, 2013 15:57
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Warchicken posted:Move them goalposts buddy. Goddamn, man. I was conceding a point and inviting further discussion.
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Aug 27, 2013 15:57
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Cold and Ugly posted:It was around the point where you posted a link to a wikipedia article about solitary confinement that I realized that you weren't interested in conversation and a differing point of view made you uncomfortable. Anyway man shut the gently caress up. No. Did you read it, or are you still ignorant of even the information contained in the wiki entry? quote:Solitary confinement is considered to be a form of psychological torture[28] when the period of confinement is longer than a few weeks or is continued indefinitely.[42] The case of Thomas Silverstein has been somewhat criticized. Silverstein has spent the last 29 years of his imprisonment in solitary confinement as a result of him murdering a prison guard in Marion, Illinois. He is thought to have been in solitary confinement longer than any other prisoner in the world. Silverstein is currently incarcerated at the Federal Supermax Prison in Florence, Colorado. The International Red Cross has expressed concern of ‘significant problems’ with U.S. confinement techniques, and U.S. prison policies have faced mounting legal challenges.[43] America's detention system is far below the basic minimum standards for treatment of prisoners under international law.[43] The United States' increasingly harsh treatment of its civilian prison population in maximum-security prisons ("supermax facilities") nationwide has caused an international human rights concern.[43] America’s solitary confinement practices contravene international treaty law, violate established international norms, and do not represent sound foreign policy.[43] Solitary is torture. But oh not everybody goes to solitary so we still live in a Just World, QED. woke wedding drone fucked around with this message at 16:01 on Aug 27, 2013 |
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Aug 27, 2013 15:58
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Cold and Ugly posted:It was around the point where you posted a link to a wikipedia article about solitary confinement that I realized that you weren't interested in conversation and a differing point of view made you uncomfortable. Anyway man shut the gently caress up. If you don't think solitary is literally physical(and psychological) torture, then you have no business discussing this issue. Go read the thread, and if you come out the other side of that still not thinking solitary confinement is torture then you're just a really lovely human being. Cold and Ugly posted:Goddamn, man. I was conceding a point and inviting further discussion. But you're still not getting it. Nobody comes out of prison unharmed either physically, psychologically, economically, or any other metric you choose to name. Nobody. I'm sorry if this is difficult to fit into your worldview but it's true. The prison system is unbelievably cruel and inhumane and this is a fact that we need every single person in the US to understand because nobody will advocate for these poor people if they hold the same views as you. You'll again accuse me of being overly hyperbolic when I say 'nobody' comes out unharmed on any of those metrics, but the only way you're going to argue with me is by trivializing the experience of prison and zooming out far enough to ignore the detailed cruelties of everyday prison life. Note that I of course am not really talking about your average county jails or anything but actual state and federal prisons. Also, psychological harm IS physical harm, it's just one particular type of physical harm. Because of awful things that happened to me I sometimes can't sleep and have panic attacks, and believe you me, that poo poo is loving physical. When I think about the kind of things felons have to deal with, I shudder to think of the emotional reality of their day to day life both during and after prison for this reason alone, not even beginning to touch on 'visible' physical injuries. empty whippet box fucked around with this message at 16:12 on Aug 27, 2013 |
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Aug 27, 2013 16:06
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Cerebral Bore posted:When a person says that being thrown into a place where there's a good chance to suffer from rape, violence, mental disorders and the stripping of civil rights aren't serious enough problems to consider extreme measures to avoid it puts the conversation into such a silly place that it's impossible for it to be taken seriously. If it was the case that the majority of felons left prison having been raped, beaten mercilessly, or having experienced such trauma as to lead to a serious psychological disorder I would agree. My contention though is that most prisoners don't experience that amount of trauma.
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Aug 27, 2013 16:11
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Cold and Ugly posted:If it was the case that the majority of felons left prison having been raped, beaten mercilessly, or having experienced such trauma as to lead to a serious psychological disorder I would agree. My contention though is that most prisoners don't experience that amount of trauma. And you base this contention upon what? Your own rear end? Being raped or beaten are just the most heinous examples of how we injure and dehumanize our prisoners. They are not really even the most important ones, they're just the ones that get your attention. Here's something to imagine: sitting in a cell for 20 years, wondering about all sorts of things about the outside world - what it's like to play violin, what this or that book is about, what's going on in this part of the world....and not even knowing what google is. You've been locked in a cell, unable to stimulate your mind even with books, for 20 years. It is a testament to the tenacity of the human spirit that anybody comes out of that still able to do anything except cry or desperately try to touch anyone they see. And even if it were true, what's your point? If 49% of prisoners don't experience hideous cruelty, then it's just mildly uncomfortable? If 1% of prisoners experienced these things, it would still be completely unacceptable. Spoiler alert: it's a lot higher than 1%. It's also higher than 49%. empty whippet box fucked around with this message at 16:17 on Aug 27, 2013 |
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Aug 27, 2013 16:12
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Cold and Ugly posted:If it was the case that the majority of felons left prison having been raped, beaten mercilessly, or having experienced such trauma as to lead to a serious psychological disorder I would agree. My contention though is that most prisoners don't experience that amount of trauma. No. You disagree only because you haven't seen the poo poo most people keep hidden because of the shame and terror of it all. I dispute that you have ever really known anyone who spent time in prison or jail. And if you think you know them, you're wrong if they told you it was "merely uncomfortable". They aren't close enough to you to expose everything that happened to them inside. Edit: Also, don't discount the horror of watching these things happen to a cell mate or to the fresh fish down the hall. Can you imagine trying to sleep at night to the muffled screams of whatever sap IS within reach of the block rapists, or watching someone get beat down by the guards for some small act of defiance, or knowing that your cellmate could turn state's evidence against you for a fruit cup? You really, REALLY haven't become aware of everything that goes on in our prisons. Please, go back and read every page of this thread from #1. anonumos fucked around with this message at 16:16 on Aug 27, 2013 |
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Aug 27, 2013 16:13
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SedanChair posted:No. Of course we don't live in a just world, man. We live in a hosed up world of nuance and specificity. Most people don't go to solitary. And many places that are called "solitary" in the newspapers, such as Pelican Bay's SHU don't really seem to me to be solitary because they're located in sections a few feet from other "solitary" cells and it's easy to communicate with other people in the section. I'm honestly not really clear on what constitutes solitary.
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Aug 27, 2013 16:14
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Oh christ you fool. "They can yell through the vent at a person that may or may not be a hallucination, not solitary."Cold and Ugly posted:If it was the case that the majority of felons left prison having been raped, beaten mercilessly, or having experienced such trauma as to lead to a serious psychological disorder I would agree. My contention though is that most prisoners don't experience that amount of trauma. Do you have statistics? If you do: how far below 100% of prisoners can be abused before you act like it's not a problem? 90%? 50%? 20%? I think the issue is that you believe they deserve their treatment.
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Aug 27, 2013 16:15
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Warchicken posted:And you base this contention upon what? Your own rear end? On what would you base the opposite view? Have any studies been done? And what other examples do you mean?
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Aug 27, 2013 16:15
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Really can't say I'm surprised that the guy who was being dense as hell in the A/T thread about Rikers is being dense as hell in the other prison thread.
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Aug 27, 2013 16:17
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Cold and Ugly posted:Of course we don't live in a just world, man. We live in a hosed up world of nuance and specificity. Most people don't go to solitary. And many places that are called "solitary" in the newspapers, such as Pelican Bay's SHU don't really seem to me to be solitary because they're located in sections a few feet from other "solitary" cells and it's easy to communicate with other people in the section. I'm honestly not really clear on what constitutes solitary. Cold and Ugly posted:On what would you base the opposite view? Have any studies been done? And what other examples do you mean? Shut the gently caress up and read the thread. Cold and Ugly posted:Do you have statistics? Does anybody? I would actually really appreciate some clarity on this issue. Read the thread. "have any studies been done?" 
empty whippet box fucked around with this message at 16:20 on Aug 27, 2013 |
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Aug 27, 2013 16:18
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SedanChair posted:Oh christ you fool. "They can yell through the vent at a person that may or may not be a hallucination, not solitary." Do you have statistics? Does anybody? I would actually really appreciate some clarity on this issue. And I will plead guilty to believing that people convicted of a felony deserve to be punished, but that their punishment ought to be limited to losing their freedom for X amount of years. I don't in any way wish for people to be beaten or victimized.
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Aug 27, 2013 16:18
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Cold and Ugly posted:Do you have statistics? Does anybody? I would actually really appreciate some clarity on this issue. Then why haven't you read the thread? It's all there man.
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Aug 27, 2013 16:23
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Cold and Ugly posted:Do you have statistics? Does anybody? I would actually really appreciate some clarity on this issue. The Bureau of Justice Statistics has everything you need. But beyond these links here, you can find articles and studies and peer reviewed investigations EVERYWHERE if you just do a simple search for "us prison abuse". Prison Rape Elimination Act (Sexual Violence In Correctional Facilities) http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=tp&tid=20 Clinical Indicators of Sexual Violence in Custody (CISVC) http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=dcdetail&iid=323 Deaths in Custody Reporting Program (DCRP) http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=dcdetail&iid=243 Data Collection: Survey Of Sexual Violence (SSV) http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=dcdetail&iid=406 https://www.google.com/search?q=pri...us+prison+abuse For example: http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/08/national/08PRIS.html quote:Mistreatment of Prisoners Is Called Routine in U.S.
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Aug 27, 2013 16:25
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SedanChair posted:Oh christ you fool. "They can yell through the vent at a person that may or may not be a hallucination, not solitary."  Man, they're five feet from each other. There's no hallucination necessary.
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Aug 27, 2013 16:34
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Cold and Ugly posted:
Wow, you're really talented at missing the point.
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Aug 27, 2013 16:36
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VideoTapir posted:Wow, you're really talented at missing the point. This is discussing the concept of "solitary", man. If there's a larger point I apologize for missing it, but i'm trying to square this with the idea of "solitary" and the news articles about such and the related psychological issues that are attached to it and the idea you guys have about it.
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Aug 27, 2013 16:38
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Cold and Ugly posted:This is discussing the concept of "solitary", man. If there's a larger point I apologize for missing it, but i'm trying to square this with the idea of "solitary" and the news articles about such and the related psychological issues that are attached to it and the idea you guys have about it. Are you reading those links that were provided? Here's one about solitary: http://law.wustl.edu/journal/22/p325grassian.pdf I found it in approximately five seconds by using Google.
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Aug 27, 2013 16:41
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Cold and Ugly posted:Goddamn, man. I was conceding a point and inviting further discussion. SedanChair posted:quote: Cold and Ugly posted:This is discussing the concept of "solitary", man. If there's a larger point I apologize for missing it, but i'm trying to square this with the idea of "solitary" and the news articles about such and the related psychological issues that are attached to it and the idea you guys have about it. What is your opinion of what SedanChair quoted?
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Aug 27, 2013 16:46
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Obdicut posted:Are you reading those links that were provided? Hmm, that one was interesting. It seems though that it focused less on the social isolation aspect, what one usually thinks of when thinking about "solitary", and more on the lack of environmental stimulation and lack of freedom of movement, or am I reading it wrong?
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Aug 27, 2013 16:49
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Cold and Ugly posted:Hmm, that one was interesting. It seems though that it focused less on the social isolation aspect, what one usually thinks of when thinking about "solitary", and more on the lack of environmental stimulation and lack of freedom of movement, or am I reading it wrong? Do you think a single reading, taking at most 8 minutes, to read that dense text is actually sufficient to grasp it? Why not google other papers on the topic and read them, if you feel that paper was insufficient?
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Aug 27, 2013 16:51
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Murmur Twin posted:What is your opinion of what SedanChair quoted? I dislike the idea of a component of the united states justice system being out of compliance with the international red cross. Very much. And I strongly disagree with the idea of a man being kept in a high security unit based simply upon his commitment offense. But honestly I cannot discount the entire idea of high security units, because I know that, in California at least, they are used to confine influential gang leaders in a setting that minimizes the harm they can do to the rest of the prison population and the community at large.
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Aug 27, 2013 16:54
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Obdicut posted:Do you think a single reading, taking at most 8 minutes, to read that dense text is actually sufficient to grasp it? I might. Is there an app that could count the hours I spend with Google and broadcast it here so people know that it's cool to have a talk rather than just being a condescending dick?
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Aug 27, 2013 16:58
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Here's the deal: Solitary is either torturous or has no effect at all. In the only cases where it's not torture you're just wasting your time doing it at all. Solitary should exist as a way to temporarily separate individuals until better accommodations can be made and nothing more. If you're problem is that the inmate is violent he's not going to come out of 3 weeks in a shoe-box totally alone any less violent.
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Aug 27, 2013 17:00
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Diet Lime posted:Here's the deal: Solitary is either torturous or has no effect at all. In the only cases where it's not torture you're just wasting your time doing it at all. I think that's only true if you're only interested in words, man. In the example I gave, in California, it serves a real and vital purpose, in that it separates, in the harshest and most thorough way possible, the gang leaders from their gang members. The intent isn't torture, but to mitigate the harm those men can do.
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Aug 27, 2013 17:02
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I hope you realize that solitary isn't just "having a single cell to myself". It's complete isolation from people and things. It is blank walls, 23 hours a day. It is nobody to talk to. It often means no reading material, and is sometimes used in conjunction with a suicide watch which is THEN used to disrupt sleep, intern the prisoner's mind, and liquefy their individuality.
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Aug 27, 2013 17:03
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Cold and Ugly posted:I might. Is there an app that could count the hours I spend with Google and broadcast it here so people know that it's cool to have a talk rather than just being a condescending dick? No, there's not, but it's relatively obvious when you spend less than 8 minutes on a serious academic paper that you're really not taking it in. In general, becoming more informed will be apparent in the things you post, since they'll be, well, more informed. Seriously, if you're interested in this, why not search for and read the papers instead of semi-jousting with random people on this thread? When you just ask for statistics, why not go look for the statistics? You seem like a reasonably bright person, so you must know how easy it is to do that these days.
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Aug 27, 2013 17:04
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Cold and Ugly posted:I think that's only true if you're only interested in words, man. In the example I gave, in California, it serves a real and vital purpose, in that it separates, in the harshest and most thorough way possible, the gang leaders from their gang members. The intent isn't torture, but to mitigate the harm those men can do. What is the percentage of people in SHU in CA who are influential gang members? If you don't know, then it sounds like you are throwing out chaff to keep from having to admit you are wrong.
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Aug 27, 2013 17:06
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