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anonumos posted:I hope you realize that solitary isn't just "having a single cell to myself". It's complete isolation from people and things. It is blank walls, 23 hours a day. It is nobody to talk to. It often means no reading material, and is sometimes used in conjunction with a suicide watch which is THEN used to disrupt sleep, intern the prisoner's mind, and liquefy their individuality. It is blank walls for 23 hours a day. I would argue, as I have, that it doesn't mean nobody to talk to, because the most secure cells in the most secure prison in the system that I am familiar with, California, are placed in a configuration where it is possible to talk to other people. I mean, take the recent hunger strike in Cali. That was coordinated by a bunch of guys in the SHU. Clearly they were able to talk to one another. Suicide watch is sort of hosed up. I get the disrupting sleep thing. But the thing is that you have to make sure those guys are alive, and like most human beings they sleep in the dark. How else do you get that critical information but by flashing a light in there?
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Aug 27, 2013 17:08
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Again, you don't know anything. It's not "flashing a light in there." It's "the lights are always on, and at random intervals guards come in and shake you to keep you from going to sleep." It is torture.
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Aug 27, 2013 17:11
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SedanChair posted:Again, you don't know anything. It's not "flashing a light in there." It's "the lights are always on, and at random intervals guards come in and shake you to keep you from going to sleep." It is torture. SedanChair, i'm a CO in California. Now, I don't work at Pelican Bay, but I have done shitloads of suicide checks on shitloads of inmates in administrative segregation. The lights are not always on, and nobody opens cell doors at night unless there is a medical emergency. I didn't express it well when I first came into this discussion, but what I really meant to say this whole time is that the prison system isn't run by Satan.
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Aug 27, 2013 17:15
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Oh wow you being a scumbag makes so much more sense now. Edit: Seriously I was like "What's wrong with this guy? How can he keep missing the point?" Welp his job relies on him doing so, no surprises there.
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Aug 27, 2013 17:16
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Congrats for working with the organization condemned by international human right groups and the Federal Government.
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Aug 27, 2013 17:17
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Cold and Ugly posted:SedanChair, i'm a CO in California. Now, I don't work at Pelican Bay, but I have done shitloads of suicide checks on shitloads of inmates in administrative segregation. The lights are not always on, and nobody opens cell doors at night unless there is a medical emergency. I didn't express it well when I first came into this discussion, but what I really meant to say this whole time is that the prison system isn't run by Satan. How do you suggest we reform the California Correctional Peace Officers Association to stop it being so horribly, horribly regressive?
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Aug 27, 2013 17:19
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Ohhhhhhh a screw. Never mind.
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Aug 27, 2013 17:19
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Diet Lime posted:If you're problem is that the inmate is violent he's not going to come out of 3 weeks in a shoe-box totally alone any less violent. Speaking from actual experience working a high security prison. No that's not true at all. The reality is that Solitary IS torture. And even hardened inmates want to avoid it if possible. The threat of it is very effective.
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Aug 27, 2013 17:20
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Obdicut posted:How do you suggest we reform the California Correctional Peace Officers Association to stop it being so horribly, horribly regressive? I don't know that it's necessarily regressive... Well, yeah... they do pretty much go balls out for any initiative or proposition that widens the prosecutorial net or extends sentences. I don't really know. They're fighting for their members interests but because it involves incarcerating human beings it does seem pretty drat sick. Maybe if Cali instituted a policy where you had to have a minimum number of CO's at every halfway house or drug rehab clinic.
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Aug 27, 2013 17:23
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SedanChair posted:Again, you don't know anything. It's not "flashing a light in there." It's "the lights are always on, and at random intervals guards come in and shake you to keep you from going to sleep." It is torture. This was the description given of Bradley Manning's suicide watch detail early in his trial. They would come in 4-5 times a night and wake him up. They didn't just look to see if he was breathing, he had to stand up and respond to their queries. Admittedly this was at military pretrial jail, but there are numerous stories of the same extreme treatment all across the country in federal and state prisons, local jails, and even immigration detention facilities. It may be regulation to flash a light and check the surroundings, but Suicide Watch and isolation are often used as punishment, not logically, and are then accompanied by extreme treatment beyond any suggested use of SW or isolation. The whole point is that American detention centers are rife with abuse and overreaches in prisoner treatment. Guards are often corrupt, facilitate gang rapes, turn a blind eye to prisoner-on-prisoner abuse, or deliberately foster gang violence for both their amusement and a tactic of control. That's before you get into case of well-meaning guards shocked by the orders they are given or the behavior of their fellow guards. Some studies show that as many as 1 in 20 of female inmates are raped, usually by their guards. Inmates have been left chained to beds or chairs while suffering psychotic breaks. Schizophrenic inmates treated in ways to deliberately exacerbate their disorder. Diabetic inmates have had their insulin withheld, as part of an interrogation or just pure cruelty. Inmates have sat with broken bones for days at a time. I remember one inmate dying of a brain hemorrhage, blood leaking out of his ears and nose while guards joked. Then you get into the grey areas of our treatment of inmates, like exorbitant fees for phone calls and charging them for basic care. I saw a post recently that probation offices won't accept calls from prisons anymore because of the cost. Another inmate was presented with an $80,000 bill after serving time, ensuring that he would quickly return to prison through failure to pay. And on top of all of that is the prison labor system that profits from having warm bodies to throw at cotton fields and factories. More prisoners, more profit, more incentive to create tougher laws and more incentive to keep prisoners inside by creating an atmosphere that encourages further crimes while in prison. These are the realities of today's prisons.
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Aug 27, 2013 17:25
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Cold and Ugly posted:I don't know that it's necessarily regressive... They're not fighting for their member's interests, no. There is no gain for an individual guard for the prison system expanding. It is a good thing for the CCPOA because they'll get more members, contributions, and power, but it's not good for the individual. In fact, they're putting their members at risk by overcrowding the prisons. I really have no clue what you're talking about in terms of having COs at a drug clinic. Can you explain?
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Aug 27, 2013 17:26
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Actually, if you don't mind me bringing this back to the original topic, how valid is torture (either physical or psychological) instead of prison? I can't find any statistics on it.
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Aug 27, 2013 17:26
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MechPlasma posted:Actually, if you don't mind me bringing this back to the original topic, how valid is torture (either physical or psychological) instead of prison? I can't find any statistics on it. I think data-gathering is really problematic there. The only places you have torture tend to be places where there is very little transparency. And in order to have torture, you have to have torturers. And that's really hosed up, people whose actual job is causing pain to other people. Is someone who does that going to be, in general, trustable and objective? Second, the analysis of deterrence is incredibly, incredibly difficult. This paper goes into detail about why: http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/1147539?uid=3739976&uid=2&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21102586202203 It's a lot easier to measure recidivism than deterrence.
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Aug 27, 2013 17:32
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MechPlasma posted:Actually, if you don't mind me bringing this back to the original topic, how valid is torture (either physical or psychological) instead of prison? I can't find any statistics on it. What do you mean? Substituting prison time (and the attendant physical/psychological torture) for straight-up torture but no time served? There's a case to be made for Heinlien's version of corporal punishment, but I think the Scandanavians have a better system. They work to keep prisoners integrated into society and providing support for them. Whether that means ensuring they become productive and self-supporting (reducing the Jean Val Jean incentive) or providing mental healthcare and ongoing residential care. They have far less recidivism, but it's in large part due to their strong safety nets and low inequality. The largest problem facing America and our justice system is the systematic inequality, the pressures of poverty, generational mental illness, and physical illness that impacts entire families. These are far more important than the actual conditions in prisons, but they won't ever be addressed by modern American society.
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Aug 27, 2013 17:34
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Obdicut posted:They're not fighting for their member's interests, no. There is no gain for an individual guard for the prison system expanding. It is a good thing for the CCPOA because they'll get more members, contributions, and power, but it's not good for the individual. In fact, they're putting their members at risk by overcrowding the prisons. Yeah, you're right, I put that wrong. They're fighting for their own interests, more cops = more dues paid. But they have been good to us, though. After that cop was killed in Chino in the early oughts they got us the stab proof vests... and of course there's the fact that we're the best paid correctional agency in the country. The union is really good at communicating with the rank and file, though. And I think when they press for harsher sentences and the such they're doing it with a mind not to overcrowd us but to force the state to build even more prisons.
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Aug 27, 2013 17:35
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SedanChair posted:Ohhhhhhh a screw. Never mind. Sorry for disrupting your torture porn narrative with my white hot reality, dog.
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Aug 27, 2013 17:38
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Cold and Ugly posted:Yeah, you're right, I put that wrong. They're fighting for their own interests, more cops = more dues paid. But they have been good to us, though. After that cop was killed in Chino in the early oughts they got us the stab proof vests... and of course there's the fact that we're the best paid correctional agency in the country. The union is really good at communicating with the rank and file, though. And I think when they press for harsher sentences and the such they're doing it with a mind not to overcrowd us but to force the state to build even more prisons. Okay. Since the actual obvious result is overcrowding, and will always be overcrowding because prison-building is never going to keep ahead of inmates, that doesn't really fly. And yes, obviously the union also gets you the highest salaries (increasing resentment towards the COs) and probably a host of other benefits. I'm talking specifically about their horrible, horrible, regressive policies on sentencing length, which has made them a pariah among unions and fostered a huge amount of contempt for COs, rightly or wrongly, in the public. I'm assuming that change has to come from COs who are members of the union, so I guess I'm wondering why COs aren't already kicking out the leadership that's taking them down such a bad road? Obivously the high salaries and other working conditions stuff they achieve aren't related to the number of people in prison.
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Aug 27, 2013 17:40
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Oh wow you being a scumbag makes so much more sense now. I wasn't trying to miss any points, man. And I'm pretty sure i'm still a good person even though the state empowered me to do a necessary job... I hope we can meet halfway on something and be friends.
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Aug 27, 2013 17:40
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Private prison investors rake in millions, the union gives you a stab-proof vest and you're grateful? Dang.
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Aug 27, 2013 17:41
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LP97S posted:Congrats for working with the organization condemned by international human right groups and the Federal Government. Eh... condemned for being overcrowded, right? That's really more the judges fault, no? You can't really blame that on a rank and file scumbag like me.
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Aug 27, 2013 17:41
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Cold and Ugly posted:I wasn't trying to miss any points, man. And I'm pretty sure i'm still a good person even though the state empowered me to do a necessary job... I hope we can meet halfway on something and be friends. Do you value keeping your salary highest in the nation above reforming prison conditions to make them more rehabilitative, reducing sentence lengths and other measures to lower the number of people in prisons?
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Aug 27, 2013 17:42
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Obdicut posted:Okay. Since the actual obvious result is overcrowding, and will always be overcrowding because prison-building is never going to keep ahead of inmates, that doesn't really fly. And yes, obviously the union also gets you the highest salaries (increasing resentment towards the COs) and probably a host of other benefits. Not at all, man. But i'm sure you understand that it's not just a coal + iron = steel sort of thing with CCPOA. There's the public safety element, which Cali politicians of all stripes have leapt and fed upon for all these years. Take the last election, when I read the dispatch that quarter from the union president I could tell that he had a professional interest in opposing the amendment to the three strikes law, of course he did. But there were a lot of other people totally unconnected with CCPOA that opposed that proposition. For a lot of people that was a legitimate political stance.
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Aug 27, 2013 17:49
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SedanChair posted:Private prison investors rake in millions, the union gives you a stab-proof vest and you're grateful? Dang. I don't know if this will make you happy or sad but the union is fighting and has been fighting tooth and nail to get rid of private prisons and get those inmates back into the protection of public servants. And also... I probably won't ever be a millionaire and i've come to terms with that, and I do appreciate that my union fought for and won a vital piece of equipment that could save my life at some point.
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Aug 27, 2013 17:51
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Cold and Ugly posted:Not at all, man. But i'm sure you understand that it's not just a coal + iron = steel sort of thing with CCPOA. There's the public safety element, which Cali politicians of all stripes have leapt and fed upon for all these years. Take the last election, when I read the dispatch that quarter from the union president I could tell that he had a professional interest in opposing the amendment to the three strikes law, of course he did. But there were a lot of other people totally unconnected with CCPOA that opposed that proposition. For a lot of people that was a legitimate political stance. Okay, so what are you doing to remove from power the leaders of the CCPOA and replace them with people who will fight for better prison conditions, ending the three strikes law, and lowering sentences? Are you voting for union leaders who will fight for those things?
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Aug 27, 2013 17:52
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Obdicut posted:Do you value keeping your salary highest in the nation above reforming prison conditions to make them more rehabilitative, reducing sentence lengths and other measures to lower the number of people in prisons? No. Man, if there was some movement I could join that could make realistic promises about properly rehabilitating inmates I promise I would find something else to do.
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Aug 27, 2013 17:53
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Cold and Ugly posted:I don't know if this will make you happy or sad but the union is fighting and has been fighting tooth and nail to get rid of private prisons and get those inmates back into the protection of public servants. And also... I probably won't ever be a millionaire and i've come to terms with that, and I do appreciate that my union fought for and won a vital piece of equipment that could save my life at some point. Public prisons provide a ton of private profit too, though. There's a ton of people making money off of the California prison system, and you guys really aren't seeing the vast majority of that money.
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Aug 27, 2013 17:53
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Cold and Ugly posted:No. Man, if there was some movement I could join that could make realistic promises about properly rehabilitating inmates I promise I would find something else to do. Why aren't you working on this within the union? That is what the union is for.
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Aug 27, 2013 17:54
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SedanChair posted:Private prison investors rake in millions, the union gives you a stab-proof vest and you're grateful? Dang. You DO realize that private prisons hire their own people and they don't have to be union right? Oh wait sorry I know know you are here to circle jerk about how bad the prison system is and not actually discuss anything. Also speaking as someone who was a CO on the other side of the country. gently caress the California prison system. Everytime I hear of a major abuse the first thing I think is "how the gently caress did they get away with that?" cause I saw people getting fired all the time for stuff that is nowhere near the radar that is being discussed and about 95 percent of the horror stories in this thread seem to originate from California.As someone who is pro union and wishes he was in one, gently caress the California CO union. Everytime we tried to get one people would point at those fucks and use them as an example about why we can't have nice things. anglachel fucked around with this message at 18:00 on Aug 27, 2013 |
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Aug 27, 2013 17:58
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Obdicut posted:Okay, so what are you doing to remove from power the leaders of the CCPOA and replace them with people who will fight for better prison conditions, ending the three strikes law, and lowering sentences? Are you voting for union leaders who will fight for those things? Ah, man. It's slim pickings. Like how I imagine most unions the people who run for chapter president and job steward are more interested in immediate results and waving their dick at management (in this case the Warden). If someone ever comes up on the ballot who favors restoring sanity to California's prison system I will vote for them. I can't really imagine running myself because i'm just not suited for that sort of thing. I voted for the amendment to the three strikes law though! And i'll keep voting for that kind of poo poo.
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Aug 27, 2013 18:01
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Obdicut posted:Why aren't you working on this within the union? That is what the union is for. I'm frightened of men with Moustaches. There seem to be a TON of those in law enforcement unions.
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Aug 27, 2013 18:02
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Cold and Ugly posted:Sorry for disrupting your torture porn narrative with my white hot reality, dog. Oh, SHU's aren't torture?
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Aug 27, 2013 18:03
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Do you guys work at Teletubby State Correctional Facility or something? It's always interesting to me how no prison worker ever sees abuse, it's always some other prison that you heard about.
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Aug 27, 2013 18:04
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Cold and Ugly posted:Ah, man. It's slim pickings. Like how I imagine most unions the people who run for chapter president and job steward are more interested in immediate results and waving their dick at management (in this case the Warden). If someone ever comes up on the ballot who favors restoring sanity to California's prison system I will vote for them. I can't really imagine running myself because i'm just not suited for that sort of thing. I voted for the amendment to the three strikes law though! And i'll keep voting for that kind of poo poo. Have you ever done anything in any way, shape, or form, to try to get the union to focus on those things? Cold and Ugly posted:I'm frightened of men with Moustaches. There seem to be a TON of those in law enforcement unions. Serious question, dude.
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Aug 27, 2013 18:04
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Zeitgueist posted:Oh, SHU's aren't torture? I don't think they are, no.
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Aug 27, 2013 18:07
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Obdicut posted:Have you ever done anything in any way, shape, or form, to try to get the union to focus on those things? Yeah, sorry. I haven't really taken any political action, no. I vote for the people who I think are the least lovely... but aside from trying to be a decent guy in the situations I deal with I haven't really taken any action.
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Aug 27, 2013 18:08
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Cold and Ugly posted:Yeah, sorry. I haven't really taken any political action, no. I vote for the people who I think are the least lovely... but aside from trying to be a decent guy in the situations I deal with I haven't really taken any action. Have you ever abused the rights or humanity of an inmate?
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Aug 27, 2013 18:10
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Cold and Ugly posted:I don't think they are, no. I think that's kind of the problem. The experts on torture generally agree that it is. That link is hardly the only one out there on the topic. Why do you feel it's not torture?
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Aug 27, 2013 18:13
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Cold and Ugly posted:Yeah, sorry. I haven't really taken any political action, no. I vote for the people who I think are the least lovely... but aside from trying to be a decent guy in the situations I deal with I haven't really taken any action. Why not do more? As a member of the union, you have power that other people have. poo poo, I've done more to reform the union than you have, and I'm not a part of it. As a union member, you share collective responsibility for the actions of the union. So you could be like the bestest guard ever, but you're still enabling the abuses in the Californian prison system, the overcrowding, the lack of resources, and the over-inflated sentences by simply benefiting from the union and not trying to reform it. Or you just don't think those things are a really big deal.
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Aug 27, 2013 18:13
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SedanChair posted:Do you guys work at Teletubby State Correctional Facility or something? It's always interesting to me how no prison worker ever sees abuse, it's always some other prison that you heard about. I work at a maximum security prison in California, SedanChair. We're all people. Just people trying to get along and tell bad jokes on the internet.
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Aug 27, 2013 18:14
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SedanChair posted:Have you ever abused the rights or humanity of an inmate? I don't think i've ever abused the rights of an inmate. And i'd have to know what you mean by "the humanity" of an inmate. Every day I order inmates to get back into their cell because they're running around too much on the tier. If that was me that would probably offend my dignity... but I haven't had the year or so experience in jail then reception before arriving at a maximum security prison.
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Aug 27, 2013 18:17
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