Quantum Theory and Racism: Bioshock Infinite [VLP]

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Prenton: Feb 17, 2011; Ner nerr-nerrr ner

I'd be interested to see if the phrenology charts were the same or not - I took it that they weren't, and it was standard racist pseudo-scientific "The natives' brains are inferior, it is our burden/duty to kick the poo poo out of them" etc stuff.

Infinite's an odd one. I really liked it - apart from some issues with combat* - but it's so neatly self-contained I've never had the urge to play it again. If anything, I kind of wish it was more vague.

*It's interesting you mentioned the traps being good, as I thought they were weaker then the previous Bioshocks. Unless you know where people will come from, enemies will stay miles away from your carefully-laid defensive perimeter and just accurately plink away at you from a distance. In fairness, this was exacerbated by me not knowing how much range the Vigors had ( more than you'd think ), and also never quite getting a handle on which one was bound to which key. And that's also a little oddity about the PC port - you can't ( couldn't? ) bind mousewheel to the Vigors, only to weapon switch. But there's loads of Vigors, and you can only carry two weapons.

# ? Aug 27, 2013 23:01

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# ? Jun 9, 2024 19:07

Seer235: May 13, 2011

Prenton posted:

And that's also a little oddity about the PC port - you can't ( couldn't? ) bind mousewheel to the Vigors, only to weapon switch. But there's loads of Vigors, and you can only carry two weapons.

Use the number keys to choose them, kind of like powers in Mass Effect. Makes it really easy to switch between them quickly.

# ? Aug 27, 2013 23:03

Ardryn: Oct 27, 2007; Rolling around at the speed of sound.

Well, holy poo poo, I was holding back on mentioning the KKK vibes I was getting, but then that building, Lincoln depicted as a devil, Boothe as a divinely-inspired avenging angel, sheesh, they went all out.
On the subject of Lincoln emancipating the slaves, while it is true that some slave holders were kind to their slaves, as kind as someone who holds absolute power over another human being can be, but those were exceptions.

# ? Aug 27, 2013 23:07

Kai Tave: Jul 2, 2012; Fallen Rib

I wasn't sure if Sundowner was aware of what phrenology is or not when he was commenting on that slideshow in the Fraternal Order's lodge, but phrenology (for anyone who doesn't know, who may be nobody and this might be me being Captain Obvious) was basically the pseudo-scientific notion that by taking the measurements of someone's skull you could discern their character and/or personality. The idea was that the brain was divided into a series of modules or areas of specific function and by measuring someone's skull (often derisively characterized as "measuring the bumps on someone's head") you could measure which traits they possessed in abundance or lacked.

There's about as much veracity to this as you can imagine, it's basically on par with things like the "four humors" approach to human biology, and naturally enough this was employed by people looking to scientifically "prove" the superiority of one ethnicity over another, which means it isn't too surprising to see something like that in Columbia. If I had to guess what the slideshow was driving at, not knowing anything about events happening in the later parts of the game, it's "look at Comstock, then look at these Native Americans, now watch as we tell you that Comstock is superior because [INSERT PSEUDOSCIENTIFIC BULLSHIT HERE]."

Here's a phrenological chart that looks similar to the one used in the slideshow, large enough to see the detail. Note the all-important "firmness" organ of the brain located next to the center for veneration.

# ? Aug 27, 2013 23:13

Sundowner: Apr 10, 2013; not even
jeff goldblum could save me from this nightmare

The only real reason I contended that he was equating himself to them (vs dismissing them as inferior, which makes more sense thematically) was because I couldn't see a different in the charts shown. Perhaps there was a difference and I didn't pay enough attention or it was just implied and the art wasn't conveying it literally.

# ? Aug 27, 2013 23:27

Speedball: Apr 15, 2008

It's kind of interesting how they're even more ridiculously racist than most people living at the time were known to be, but have enough gender equity that they've got female soldiers in their ranks. I guess their sense of egalitarianism developed way, way different than most societies.

# ? Aug 27, 2013 23:28

Kai Tave: Jul 2, 2012; Fallen Rib

Speedball posted:

It's kind of interesting how they're even more ridiculously racist than most people living at the time were known to be, but have enough gender equity that they've got female soldiers in their ranks. I guess their sense of egalitarianism developed way, way different than most societies.

Well, note that "Columbia's smartest citizen" is Lutece who's a woman. That might go some way towards explaining it, though there was also the voxophone with the girl talking about how her mother didn't think science was a pursuit fit for women so...mmmmaybe it's not a 100% thing?

# ? Aug 27, 2013 23:34

NoodleBox: Jul 11, 2009

Speedball posted:

It's kind of interesting how they're even more ridiculously racist than most people living at the time were known to be, but have enough gender equity that they've got female soldiers in their ranks. I guess their sense of egalitarianism developed way, way different than most societies.

Their pro-feminism/women's rights stance might be a sort of weird combination of "we don't have an metric rear end-load of people for defense, EVERYONE MAKE SURE TO DO YOUR PART FOR COLUMBIA THAT GOES FOR YOU TOO LADIES" and as a thing they can use to entice/spite Americans for abandoning and opposing their values, beliefs, and lifestyle; using it in a sort of "Look ladies in Columbia you can have the same rights as men, AND MORE!"

But then again the so-called smartest citizen of Columbia was kind of "Magret Thatchering" it up with her position of power, so who really knows

Theres also the fact that its a more easily grantable form of women's rights due to the fact that its only pertaining to the white women of Columbia

NoodleBox fucked around with this message at 03:04 on Aug 28, 2013

# ? Aug 27, 2013 23:38

Blastinus: Feb 28, 2010; Time to try my luck

Crap.

It's interesting how Comstock seems to know so much about Booker, despite him just being a new arrival. Considering that Vigors are in full force, and they're effectively superpowers in a bottle, perhaps Comstock happens to have some form of mind reading. It'd make sense, considering how much he's able to identify with and inspire his flock.

When I look at the cable riding, I can't help but wonder whether the grapple claw also came with a jet booster of some kind, because Booker's ability to bound through the air from a full stop is quite astounding, especially when he's leaping from hook to hook. It's probably just done for the sake of fun, but it's still hilarious to watch.

# ? Aug 27, 2013 23:41

Frankston: Jul 27, 2010

Big fan of this game, I'm on my third playthrough so I think I've pretty much seen everything the game has to offer. Reading all the speculation and theory in this thread is very enjoyable, keep it up folks who haven't played this.

# ? Aug 27, 2013 23:41

Wa11y: Jul 23, 2002; Did I say "cookies?" I meant, "Fire in your face!"

Sundowner posted:

The only real reason I contended that he was equating himself to them (vs dismissing them as inferior, which makes more sense thematically) was because I couldn't see a different in the charts shown. Perhaps there was a difference and I didn't pay enough attention or it was just implied and the art wasn't conveying it literally.

That's because it wasn't a difference in the charts you should pay attention to, but a difference in the shape of the head.

Kai Tave posted:

I wasn't sure if Sundowner was aware of what phrenology is or not when he was commenting on that slideshow in the Fraternal Order's lodge, but phrenology (for anyone who doesn't know, who may be nobody and this might be me being Captain Obvious) was basically the pseudo-scientific notion that by taking the measurements of someone's skull you could discern their character and/or personality. The idea was that the brain was divided into a series of modules or areas of specific function and by measuring someone's skull (often derisively characterized as "measuring the bumps on someone's head") you could measure which traits they possessed in abundance or lacked

# ? Aug 28, 2013 00:05

Kai Tave: Jul 2, 2012; Fallen Rib

No, I get what Sundowner was saying...the charts shown after the picture of Comstock and the picture of the Native American looked somewhat identical at a casual glance, and you'd expect there to be more noticeable differences between them if the idea was "look at the demonstrated scientific inferiority of the savage Indian, noble though he may be, etc. etc." But then again it was hard to make out the fine details of the slideshow, so there might have been something there on closer inspection. Nonetheless I find it kind of hard to imagine that anyone in Columbia would suggest that any non-Caucasian type person was on equal footing with their holy leader given how steeped in racial supremacy the entire place is.

# ? Aug 28, 2013 00:19

Bruceski: Aug 21, 2007; The tools of a hero mean nothing without a solid core.

Note the second piece of clothing was from a broken gear vending machine (we never see any working ones to use) that features a stylized Jewish tailor as its mascot. Just a bit more of the casual racism.

That "mulatto dwarf or a Frenchman with a missing left eye" line sounds like it's referencing something, but I have been unable to find any hints what. Anyone have any ideas?

# ? Aug 28, 2013 01:12

GenHavoc: Jul 19, 2006; Vive L'Empreur!
Vive La Surcouf!

Okay gentlemen, let's do this:

The very first thing we see in the video is Booker standing in front of a building on which is mounted a symbol of an open eye. Based on the design, and the rays that are eminating from above it, I would guess it's supposed to be the Eye of Providence, the same one as is found on the obverse side of the US $1 bill. The Eye of Providence is a Masonic symbol representing God watching benevolently over man. A woman in the last episode mentioned something about the "Feathered Brethren", which I took to be some kind of Masonic cult-lodge, possibly associated with whatever the "Songbird" of the children's nursery rhyme was. Perhaps this is the lodge?
On closer inspection, the eye seems to be transfixed by a sword from underneath. What does this symbolize? A more militant eye of providence? Some kind of secret police force perhaps?
The statue of Comstock fighting the Serpent of Nations reminds me of Guido Reni's Michael Tramples Satan, a famous image from the renaissance regarding the victory of the angelic over the profane. There's another piece of art that this reminds me of, but I can't quite place it. In either case, this would seem to symbolize Comstock's break with the rest of the world, perhaps with racial undertones. The serpent may be that of immigration, or non-white races "polluting" America. This goes somewhat beyond the evidence, but given the raffle scene, I'm prepared to make that leap.
Fraternal Order of the Raven, eh? Once more, I get strong Masonic undertones from this, based on the imagery and the name. Most of the founding fathers, including Washington, Jefferson, and Franklin, were all Masons, so it makes sense that a culture which deifies them would retain much Masonic rite and imagery. But why the bird metaphor? Is it because they're flying in the clouds? Or something else.

The Raven is a symbol of prophecy and portent in Greek mythology, and luck in Roman. They were heavily associated with Odinic worship in Norse mythology, and prophetic wisdom in Celtic culture, many of the traditions of which survived the christianization of Britain and Europe. One legend I've seen is that the Tower of London will fall when the Ravens desert it. Perhaps that's the image here?

Ravens were also heavily involved in many Native American cultures, but I'd be shocked if the Columbians actively derived mythology from them, given their viewpoint on Wounded Knee and the like.
Who are these men in the portraits in the entrance to the hall? I thought some of them might be other early Presidents, but on consulting the official portraits, I don't believe so. One looked vaguely like Stephen Decatur, of all people (the Barbary and War of 1812 Commodore), but I have no proof.
A statue of John Wilkes Booth? Well I suppose that places these people's position on Lincoln in the proper context, now doesn't it? I noticed that the banner above the doorway that we entered just after the statue read "Sic Semper Tyrannis" (I think). "Thus always for Tyrants", was the phrase Brutus supposedly uttered when he killed Caesar, and the one Booth (certainly) shouted after assassinating Lincoln. Charming.
The tapestry in the next room reads "Protecting our Race". I'm starting to wonder if the KKK might not be a better model for these guys than the Masons. The symbolism's all Masonic, but the politics are Klan
I can't make out the song playing from that phonograph, unfortunately. Sounds like turn-of-the-century Bluegrass, but I can't narrow it further.
Lincoln as the Devil, Washington as Caesar/an Archangel. Laying it on a bit thick, guys.
So Lincoln is "The Great Apostate", eh? Interestingly enough, John Wilkes Booth's last performance at Ford's Theater before assassinating Lincoln was on March 18, 1865, in which he played the leading role of Duke Pescara.

The name of the play? "The Apostate".
Just a note. Comstock's voice is not what I would have pictured. I suppose I was thinking of some wild old-time southern preacher voice. Instead he sounds like Tony Curtis.
Well that painting is subtle. Lincoln wearing horns and Booth with a halo around his head.

A thought occurs to me? What connection is there between Columbia and the Confederacy? Might Comstock have been a officer or official within the Southern Government? As I mentioned above, he sure doesn't sound like a southerner.
So... the theater sequence. For one thing, this seems to be a replica of Ford's theater, but by now that's not a surprise. More interesting is the overt mention of the Secession, and references to "like our fathers". So Columbia (or at least the Brotherhood) considers itself an inheritor of the Confederacy. Once more I get Klan flashbacks. The funny costumes help. I couldn't quite tell if the Ravens were supposed to be eating someone during that speech or not.
A close up look at the Raven brethren reveal Klan-style hoods in black. So there we are.
A very interesting mural at the back of the Raven gathering. Washington as an Archangel or Prophet himself, delivering what I'm guessing to be the Liberty Bell? Not sure why. Note the Sword and Key and Scroll symbols along the side, as previously established.

Edit A closer look at the mural that Sundowner placed in the thread reveals that I may have been mistaken about the symbolism involved. I like the Washington-as-Moses theme here, with the Ten Commandments clearly standing in as the Bill of Rights. Among the "foreign hordes" involved here, we have Indians, Irishmen, Chinese, Mexicans, Jews, a Roman (?), and several more I can't identify. Sounds like standard boilerplate from the Nativist movements of the late 19th century, which were in turn the inheritors of earlier pre-war nativist anti-German movements.
Comstock's second voxophone is drawn directly out of anti-abolition propaganda in the period running up to the civil war. The most direct example I know of is this Harper's Weekly cartoon from 1841, displaying the most idealized vision of slavery one is ever likely to see. These cartoons were contrasted with ones showing the "plight" of poor blacks in the North who were enslaved by factory workers with nobody to care for them, in an attempt to paint the Slave states as more enlightened than the free ones.

EDIT: Someone else in the thread mentioned the White Man's Burden, which is a descendant of such beliefs as the ones I described above, albeit couched in slightly more imperialist and less slavocratic terms (slightly). I still get more of the former feeling from this than the latter, particularly as Columbia has what appears to be a very insular mentality, as opposed to the White Man's Burden, which is an overt call to send White Men around the globe to civilize other peoples. Comstock also seems to want to turn the clock back to before 1861, which would fit the above terms even better.

I grant that the distinction between different racist ideologies may be somewhat rarefied, but the Kipling call implies, at least, that non-whites can be civilized and made into proper men. The Confederate version assumes that Blacks are infinitely inferior forever, and can only be "taken care of" by virtuous, compassionate, white plantation owners. The difference is subtle, but it's there, and important given this society's model.
It's... strange that the infusion was changing color and flickering. It would seem to have something to do with that statue shift from the last video which I missed and others did not. Perhaps reflecting that this decision as to which powerup to take is not pre-determined, as the rest of Booker's actions would appear to have been?
Those infusions sure don't give you much of a boost, do they?
More anachronistic Music The song that followed the radio report on your evil crimes was aold time Jazz recording of Makin' Whoopie, which was written by Gus Khan in 1928, 16 years after the present. What the hell is going on here?
Someone's probably already mentioned this, but your latin is correct, Sundowner. The Alabama motto however is "Audemus jura nostra defendere", which is probably what led to the error, as the two nouns have different genders.
Phrenology is a discredited pseudoscience popular in the turn of the century period that believed skull shape could be used to determine what areas of the brain were dominant within a given individual. Like a lot of science and pseudoscience back then, it got twisted into the racialist theories of the early 1900s, in an attempt to "prove" that White, Nordic, or "Aryan" peoples were smarter, or more advanced evolutionarily speaking, than other races. My guess would be that Comstock is trying to point out that he, and by extension, white people, are superior to Native Americans by use of Phrenology.

EDIT: ... a fact many other people already commented on. This is the problem with me watching the video first and reading the thread second. I apologize for the repetitions this has involved.
What "failure" is the First Zealot referring to in that voxophone of his? The failure to stop Booker? He only escaped today. Then again, the voxophone recording is dated January 1912...
At risk of repeating myself...

Flesh-eating Ravens, eh? Wonderful! I guess that answers the question as to whether they were eating a body before.
At this juncture, can I just say how much I really love the various bottles the Vigors come in? It would have been easy to make one generic bottle for them, but they add such a wonderful flavor to the whole thing?
One of the buildings you could see through the telescope seemed to be operating on a... paddlewheel? How the hell does that work?
The sketch drawing... is that Andrew Ryan? Crossed with Washington? Because if it isn't, then I have no idea who it's supposed to be. It's plainly not Booker, at least from the tiny glimpses of his face in reflection we've seen.

EDIT: It is Ryan! So what the hell does that mean? Is Booker Andrew Ryan? His voice is completely different, and moreover, Ryan was a man in his middle age in 1960, when Jack killed him. He'd be two years old now! Maybe... Booker is a time traveler?

Actually that makes more sense than I originally thought. I need to consider this matter.
The Kinetiscope in the train station is fascinating for several reasons. For one, those... weird energy things, I'm sure will be coming up later. For another, Columbia's Greatest Mind, whom I'm assuming to be Lutece, is plainly and obviously the same woman we've been running into all over the place. So who is the man with her? And why does nobody else recognize her?

Wildly unsupported theory #8 Lutece is a Time Traveler who brought the advanced technology back in time to build Columbia, only to have Comstock seize control of her project. She is now forced to rely on Booker to unseat Comstock and is using her time traveling ability to subtly nudge him forward every time he would otherwise fail.
I know someone already said there's no connection between this game and Bioshock 2, but the female voice on the intercom blathering in semi-religious terms about the False Shepherd come to "take the Lamb away" is so close of a parallel that I'm having trouble believing the games have nothing to do with one another. Maybe Irrational thought they would just re-make a newer, better Bioshock 2? I hope not...
The voxophone regarding Columbia as "another Ark" is interesting, in that it dates to 1893, supposedly the year that Columbia was launched. This means long before he seceeded from the US, Comstock was already thinking in Eschatological terms for his flying city. The early date may also serve to explain why the voice actor didn't put the usual verve in. This is supposedly Comstock as he was nearly twenty years ago.
"Anarchists, Unionists, and Misogynists"? That's a hell of a combination. Columbia is a strange place indeed. They're racist as all hell, but appear to be scrupulously egalitarian insofar as the sexes are concerned. This would explain the female cops, I suppose, as well as Lutece's status as "the best mind" in Columbia. But where did they get this progressive viewpoint on women's liberation from? Maybe Lutece has something to do with it? Maybe she forced the issue on Comstock?
Wounded Knee? So Booker was also at Wounded Knee then. Fascinating. Comstock plainly knows who he is, and so we must assume that Booker knows him too. If we knew more about Booker's background, I could make more assumptions, but of course we do not.

Wildly Unsupported Theory #9: Comstock was Booker's commanding officer at the Wounded Knee Massacre. This is why Booker was approached to find the Girl.

Wildly Unsupported Theory #10: Comstock is Booker's father. This is why Booker was approached to find the Girl. Notice how Comstock refers to him by name, but Booker takes some pains to refer to Comstock by pejorative, but familiar terms ("You don't know me, pal"). Does it not sound like a rebellious (prodigal?) son arguing with his father?

Wildly Unsupported Theory #11: Both of the above theories are true.
Comstock mentioned Anna... a wife? Daughter? If so, she'd have the last name of DeWitt. AD. The brand on Booker's hand that got him caught in the first place. He acted surprised when it appeared on his hand. Or was he simply surprised to see the poster identifying it? Need more information.
Sundowner, you magnificent bastard.

GenHavoc fucked around with this message at 01:49 on Aug 28, 2013

# ? Aug 28, 2013 01:31

Ardryn: Oct 27, 2007; Rolling around at the speed of sound.

GenHavoc posted:

A List.

Not to detract from your musing, of which I enjoy greatly, but you do realize the developers more than likely just grabbed every song that said "I'm old-timey!" to them and shoved them into a box and shook. The Bioshock team certainly wouldn't be the first or last to do this.

# ? Aug 28, 2013 01:41

GenHavoc: Jul 19, 2006; Vive L'Empreur!
Vive La Surcouf!

Ardryn posted:

Not to detract from your musing, of which I enjoy greatly, but you do realize the developers more than likely just grabbed every song that said "I'm old-timey!" to them and shoved them into a box and shook. The Bioshock team certainly wouldn't be the first or last to do this.

There is nothing "old-timey" about God Only Knows, which not only dates from the 1960s, but is a well known song that many people would have recognized, not just me. If they wanted to simply take the Fallout 3 routine and pour period music into the game that would be one thing. But they put music into this game that is plainly anachronistic, and I believe they did so intentionally. The sheer level of detail and work in the rest of the game does not bear out the theory that when it came time to put music into the game they couldn't be bothered to look up a date.

# ? Aug 28, 2013 01:44

Ardryn: Oct 27, 2007; Rolling around at the speed of sound.

GenHavoc posted:

There is nothing "old-timey" about God Only Knows, which not only dates from the 1960s, but is a well known song that many people would have recognized, not just me. If they wanted to simply take the Fallout 3 routine and pour period music into the game that would be one thing. But they put music into this game that is plainly anachronistic, and I believe they did so intentionally. The sheer level of detail and work in the rest of the game does not bear out the theory that when it came time to put music into the game they couldn't be bothered to look up a date.

Well I know nothing about music, and I'm certainly not about to say it's impossible the music holds no connection. I mean, for all I know you're on to something and the devs are trying to be even cleverer by picking music that sounds almost at home but isn't.

# ? Aug 28, 2013 01:48

Speedball: Apr 15, 2008

Regarding #26 on your list, I think it's mostly just a joke about how composite sketches are often terrible and don't match well with the subject, plus the fact that they have a hard time admitting they're being attacked by a regular-looking white dude and not an army of subhuman foreign devils.

# ? Aug 28, 2013 01:49

CuwiKhons: Sep 24, 2009; Seven idiots and a bear walk into a dragon's lair.

Since the Crow Bros are obviously heavily inspired by the KKK, let's talk about said shameful piece of American history for a moment :eng101:

The KKK was originally formed in 1865 by six Confederate Army vets in Pulaski, Tennessee. The thing is, the group was originally little more than the equivalent of modern fraternities. The vets were barely more than teenagers, and they were bored and being kind of childish. This is why the ranks of the KKK are stupid poo poo like "Grand Dragon" or "Grand Wizard". You can basically imagine them giggling to themselves the entire time they wrote up their charter, and going "omg omg, let's call this rank a Hydra, wouldn't you want to be a Hydra? rofl this is so cool." They were kids. loving stupid rear end in a top hat kids, but kids nevertheless. Even the costumes were deliberately picked to resemble something a kid might wear on Halloween. For the most part, the original small group of the KKK just went around town at night playing pranks on the locals, particularly freedmen. According to the KKK, blacks were scared of them because they were superstitious and stupid, and thought they were ghosts. It's more likely they were afraid of a pack of teenage white boys on horses running up to them with guns on their hips, even if there wasn't yet any incidence of violence from the group.

The group expanded pretty swiftly but they had a policy of never, EVER asking somebody to join. They might go up to somebody in a bar, mention the group and then go "I think I'm going to join up!" and hope the person they were talking to went "Yeah, me too!" but they never directly said "Hey, come join the KKK." The reason for this was to keep an air of mystique about the group and also to ensure that if somebody decided they didn't like the group anymore or they didn't approve of what was going on, the group could say "Well look buddy, you volunteered to join up." Joining the group involved intense hazing and to be honest, hazing new members was 90% of the point of the group. Again, fraternity mindset.

The problem started when people from outside Pulaski came to town just to join up, then got permission to go back to their own towns and start their own chapters. The original members didn't really care - sure of course you can start your own chapter, whatever. But they had never put a system in place for the leader of the KKK to actually control what the other chapters did. Within a year, various chapters across the South had set themselves up as vigilante law enforcers since, because of the Reformation, all the actual law enforcement was being done by Northern soldiers and for obvious reasons, the South wasn't thrilled about this. It didn't take long for this to devolve into violence against blacks.

The leader of the Pulaski chapter tried to bring the other chapters to heel and drafted a much more extensive charter with better rules for a chain of command, but he wasn't actually against the vigilantism (nor was he very likely against the attacks on freedmen), he was just trying to control the KKK's public image because they were swiftly becoming unpopular with Northerners and the US government. In 1868, a mere three years after it was formed, laws were enacted against the KKK starting in Tennessee, their home state. In January of 1869, the Grand Wizard, Nathan Bedford Forrest (not one of the original founders, interestingly), issued an order for the KKK to disband entirely, declaring that the Klan had violated it's original purpose of helping the innocent but that the Klan had done good and members should continue to "do good", but no longer as members.

What does all of this have to do with Bioshock Infinite, other than the Crow Bros being clearly based on them? Based on the dates we have and a timeline we can infer, the KKK has already cropped up, wreaked havoc, and disbanded by the time of Columbia's secession. Members of the Crow Bros (I know this isn't their name, but I like it better) would almost certainly have included former KKK members and probably some of their leaders that disagreed with the disbanding of the Klan. And while I'm not sure it's relevant (I have to assume that Columbia has little contact with "the Sodom below" these days), the game is also taking place at just the right time for the KKK's revival around 1915 when they reformed and spread across the South once again, like a plague of assholes.

# ? Aug 28, 2013 01:51

Revenant Threshold: Jan 1, 2008

GenHavoc posted:

There is nothing "old-timey" about God Only Knows, which not only dates from the 1960s, but is a well known song that many people would have recognized, not just me. If they wanted to simply take the Fallout 3 routine and pour period music into the game that would be one thing. But they put music into this game that is plainly anachronistic, and I believe they did so intentionally. The sheer level of detail and work in the rest of the game does not bear out the theory that when it came time to put music into the game they couldn't be bothered to look up a date.

Not to mention that God Only Knows is the first anachronistic song we hear, and the most obvious of what we've heard. If it had been one of the others, it could be put down to general "old-timey"ness, but it's so wrong, and so famous a song and thus recognisable, that it draws attention to itself (and by doing so makes you actually pay attention to the next seemingly out-of-place songs).

# ? Aug 28, 2013 01:58

Spiritus Nox: Sep 2, 2011

Man, I'd forgotten just how amazing the lighting is in this game. It's really incredible - the game game looks absolutely stunning compared to just about anything I've seen on the market, but even my slightly aging computer runs it basically maxed out without a hitch. Goes to show just how much you can get out of great art and people who know how to work the engine.

Spiritus Nox fucked around with this message at 02:23 on Aug 28, 2013

# ? Aug 28, 2013 02:11

Louispul5: Oct 10, 2012

Genhavoc, how about you save yourself a ton of time by watching the video first, then replying? Because all of those posts could have been half as long, what with the second half of each video answering most of the questions you had in the first half. Can always just make a list of time stamps and go back to reference them later if you're afraid you'll forget something.

Having played the game is the most frustrating thing. Literally anything you can say is some degree of spoiler. Let's move this train along to the point where I'm not ruining something just by posting.

Until then, I have never understood why the Irish aren't "white." They're the whitest non-albinos ever, but every racist group hates them, here and in Europe.

# ? Aug 28, 2013 02:34

Ulvirich: Jun 26, 2007

Really liking some of your theories there GenHavoc. Looking forward to seeing what you make of the later events in the game.

# ? Aug 28, 2013 02:35

Bruceski: Aug 21, 2007; The tools of a hero mean nothing without a solid core.

Louispul5 posted:

Until then, I have never understood why the Irish aren't "white." They're the whitest non-albinos ever, but every racist group hates them, here and in Europe.

It's the immigrants. America got a flood of Irish immigrants, which became a reason for the established True Americans (aka the LAST wave of immigrants) to complain about them taking up space and taking jobs and all that fun stuff when you can abuse a group of downtrodden people and then get mad at them for letting you do so. These days you get some residual stuff (mostly from history books) but the Irish have been around long enough to be complaining about the new immigrants, and I doubt you'd find many folks in the modern day who didn't call them "white" as a result.

America: if you come here and put up with hate long enough you get to pretend you didn't deal with any of it and hate the next folks in line. Unless you're black, then you never get un-screwed.

EDIT: to answer your comment less indirectly, you can't go hatin' on white folks, that's just not Christian. Anyone you're hating has to have a reason not to be white.

# ? Aug 28, 2013 02:41

Thunk: Oct 15, 2007

I always thought the guy saying "misogynists" meant to say "miscegenates" and just pronounced it wrong.

# ? Aug 28, 2013 02:43

Brainamp: Sep 4, 2011; More Zen than Zenyatta

Louispul5 posted:

Until then, I have never understood why the Irish aren't "white." They're the whitest non-albinos ever, but every racist group hates them, here and in Europe.

It was mostly a result of stereotyping, like with all ~~most~~ all racism.

# ? Aug 28, 2013 02:47

Kai Tave: Jul 2, 2012; Fallen Rib

Thunk posted:

I always thought the guy saying "misogynists" meant to say "miscegenates" and just pronounced it wrong.

I kind of doubt they'd have left a mistake like that in the finished product if that were the case. I mean, it's in the subtitles and everything.

On the one hand, it's interesting to think that for all its horrible prejudices that Columbia is weirdly enlightened in other respects and think about how that might have happened. On the other hand "These guys are assholes! They even hate women!" is a great thing to say about a group you're trying to demonize. I mean it doesn't even make sense when you consider that Vox Populi enemy number one is Daisy Fitzroy.

e; a thought just occurred to me, and I don't know if there's anything to back this up or it's just me overthinking things, but "mysogynists" in this context might mean that the policeman is implying that the Vox is full of deviant homosexuals...i.e. they "hate women" and are thus full of men laying with men, etc.

Kai Tave fucked around with this message at 02:57 on Aug 28, 2013

# ? Aug 28, 2013 02:53

Thunk: Oct 15, 2007

No, I don't mean the game writers got the word wrong. I mean the writers made the cop get the word wrong. Y'know, what with it having a whole four syllables and all.

# ? Aug 28, 2013 02:56

Spikey: May 12, 2001; From my cold, dead hands!

Ardryn posted:

Not to detract from your musing, of which I enjoy greatly, but you do realize the developers more than likely just grabbed every song that said "I'm old-timey!" to them and shoved them into a box and shook. The Bioshock team certainly wouldn't be the first or last to do this.

Take a closer look at the sign the quartet is singing in front of.

# ? Aug 28, 2013 03:00

Bruceski: Aug 21, 2007; The tools of a hero mean nothing without a solid core.

The amusing thing with God Only Knows is that they did such a good job adapting it to barbershop (though the Beach Boys are already pretty much all bout pure tones and harmonies and all that) that it took me a good two minutes of listening to remember that it wasn't supposed to sound that way or exist in 1900.

# ? Aug 28, 2013 03:03

Ardryn: Oct 27, 2007; Rolling around at the speed of sound.

Spikey posted:

Take a closer look at the sign the quartet is singing in front of.

Hah! Well that sure lends quite a hell of a lot to the quantum time-travel theories!

# ? Aug 28, 2013 03:30

GenHavoc: Jul 19, 2006; Vive L'Empreur!
Vive La Surcouf!

Louispul5 posted:

Genhavoc, how about you save yourself a ton of time by watching the video first, then replying? Because all of those posts could have been half as long, what with the second half of each video answering most of the questions you had in the first half. Can always just make a list of time stamps and go back to reference them later if you're afraid you'll forget something.

Having played the game is the most frustrating thing. Literally anything you can say is some degree of spoiler. Let's move this train along to the point where I'm not ruining something just by posting.

Until then, I have never understood why the Irish aren't "white." They're the whitest non-albinos ever, but every racist group hates them, here and in Europe.

I try to double back to catch things that are later answered in edits or just generally concatenate thoughts together, but most of the questions I had in that list are still unanswered, or are ~~raving bullshit~~ clever theories that I've come up with for the sake of making predictions. A lot of my observations are based upon split-second pauses and muses that come to me regarding a certain situation, symbol, or image. Watching the entire video and then trying to sort them all out would mean I would forget 70-80% of them. Moreover, my internet connection sucks, and interfaces very poorly with Youtube. It's a chore getting the video to load once, let alone to double back thirty times to a given timestamp.

If this rambling insanity of mine is too long, or not interesting, I can stop, or try to restrict my commentary only to those things that seem particularly important, but I sort of have to do the observation list as I go. I can try to be better about weeding out duplicates or previously-addressed things, if that'll help.

# ? Aug 28, 2013 03:33

1stGear: Jan 16, 2010; Here's to the new us.

Bruceski posted:

The amusing thing with God Only Knows is that they did such a good job adapting it to barbershop (though the Beach Boys are already pretty much all bout pure tones and harmonies and all that) that it took me a good two minutes of listening to remember that it wasn't supposed to sound that way or exist in 1900.

If you search "God Only Knows" on YouTube, the Infinite version currently comes up ahead of the original.

# ? Aug 28, 2013 03:45

Louispul5: Oct 10, 2012

GenHavoc posted:

I try to double back to catch things that are later answered in edits or just generally concatenate thoughts together, but most of the questions I had in that list are still unanswered, or are ~~raving bullshit~~ clever theories that I've come up with for the sake of making predictions. A lot of my observations are based upon split-second pauses and muses that come to me regarding a certain situation, symbol, or image. Watching the entire video and then trying to sort them all out would mean I would forget 70-80% of them. Moreover, my internet connection sucks, and interfaces very poorly with Youtube. It's a chore getting the video to load once, let alone to double back thirty times to a given timestamp.

If this rambling insanity of mine is too long, or not interesting, I can stop, or try to restrict my commentary only to those things that seem particularly important, but I sort of have to do the observation list as I go. I can try to be better about weeding out duplicates or previously-addressed things, if that'll help.

Nah it's all interesting, just when point say, 3 asks a question then point, say, 7 is "well guess so on the whole 3 thing" you coulda just taken 3 out.

And I don't think this is a spoiler, but the reason the statue changing probably seemed so weird and missable, was that they didn't get to see the game menu when you load up the game. You started the first video after you'd already hit New Game. Though since it shows that first street in Columbia I guess you wanted to keep that a surprise.

Louispul5 fucked around with this message at 04:02 on Aug 28, 2013

# ? Aug 28, 2013 03:52

David D. Davidson: Nov 17, 2012; Orca lady?

The music is deliberately anachronistic. I didn't know about the song that the Quartet was singing, I don't really care for the beach boys to be honest so it went over my head. Also Phrenology, yeah like they said it was some BS psuedoscience that racist whites used to justify themselve being horrible to people who were different from them. Here's a scene from Django Unchained to expalain it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lj46lfpBUlY Sorry about the quality it's the only video of that scene I could find on youtube.

# ? Aug 28, 2013 04:10

Hirayuki: Mar 28, 2010

"Would you kindly tune in next time..." :argh:

Aaah, you can't fool this linguist. Scottish =/= Irish.

# ? Aug 28, 2013 04:47

David D. Davidson: Nov 17, 2012; Orca lady?

Well Scotts are worse actually when you think about it.

# ? Aug 28, 2013 04:50

Mage_Boy: Dec 18, 2003; This hotdog is about as real as your story Steve Simmons

I'm enjoying this so far, but I'm really afraid to talk too much about it in the thread to avoid accidentally spoiling something. What I will ask is how is the first DLC (That's out) I haven't gotten around to playing it yet, and was wondering if it is worth my time. I have the season pass, so I own it already. (Really helped me beat that difficulty that you unlock for beating the game.)

# ? Aug 28, 2013 05:14

Seer235: May 13, 2011

Mage_Boy posted:

I'm enjoying this so far, but I'm really afraid to talk too much about it in the thread to avoid accidentally spoiling something. What I will ask is how is the first DLC (That's out) I haven't gotten around to playing it yet, and was wondering if it is worth my time. I have the season pass, so I own it already. (Really helped me beat that difficulty that you unlock for beating the game.)

I had a surprising amount of fun with it. The Blue Ribbon challenges not only make it more interesting than just a constant trudge through enemies. The challenges also help teach you about more intricacies of the combat system, something the actual game kind of fails at. You also actually get to buy all the weapon and vigor upgrades, so you get to see the full potential of everything.

I'd say it's worth checking out, and makes the combat more fun by quite a bit than it ever was in the main campaign. I ended up getting all 60 Blue Ribbon challenges, and none of them were too nuts after a couple tries and some focus.

# ? Aug 28, 2013 05:27

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# ? Jun 9, 2024 19:07

Bruceski: Aug 21, 2007; The tools of a hero mean nothing without a solid core.

It's odd, there's some bits of info I've figured out but I can't recall how I figured them out. For example the Order of the Raven doesn't get any more information, and I know some pieces people haven't mentioned, but I can't recall if dots I connected for that came later. I'll have to re-watch the first videos to figure out what we know.

# ? Aug 28, 2013 05:34

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Video Games > Let's Play! > Quantum Theory and Racism: Bioshock Infinite [VLP]

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