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CapnAndy posted:They also don't want you to be perfect, they want you to try. Intent may be on Belkar's side here, especially since by their very natures a Good judge would be pulling for him and a Neutral one would be utterly fair. Was thinking about this today, and yes Belkar is trying to be a better person... but he's also not trying to try? He still self-identifies as pretending to have character growth, accepting the comparison between him and Durkula without debate, and he gets upset when he catches himself behaving in a selfless without an obvious self-interest behind it. I'd say at this point he acts more Good than he wants to be.
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Aug 28, 2013 00:09
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Slashrat posted:Is too much to hope for that there'll eventually be a d&d edition that gets rid the alignment system and any other game mechanic that attempts to define morality and ethics as a finite set of labels? Sacred cows. See also: 18-point stat system.
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Aug 28, 2013 00:44
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Malack was courteous, respectful, and considered Durkon a friend. He was unwilling to attack him despite being placed in direct opposition to him, and did so only once Durkon made it clear that he would allow no compromise. His long-term plans involved sacrificing the population of a continent to his god. What I'm saying is that Belkar not being a mustache-twirling sociopath does not make him Chaotic Neutral and this argument is as absurd as it was half a decade ago.
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Aug 28, 2013 00:46
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Capfalcon posted:
Wisdom however, is not.
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Aug 28, 2013 00:50
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Voyager I posted:this argument is as absurd as it was half a decade ago.
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Aug 28, 2013 00:53
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Blackheart posted:I keep my theory that his punishment will be dying a forgettable, almost off-panel death. Maybe raised as a mindless thrall by Xykon or something, not because of any revenge fantasy, but because it would just be so fitting. Maybe Sabine will help orchestrate it all somehow. Sabine will drain all his class levels and leave him a 0 level commoner.
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Aug 28, 2013 01:07
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FMguru posted:THREE and a half decades ago I think he means the strip.
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Aug 28, 2013 01:41
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I really hope 13th Age gets at least one well-written comic based on it so that I can watch those linked to it from OOTS dissolve in agony at the lack of outdated features to argue about. Think if this book ends in 10 or less chapters Rich could have it out by the holidays? OOTS stuff makes every Xmas better.
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Aug 28, 2013 02:36
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DrakePegasus posted:I really hope 13th Age gets at least one well-written comic based on it so that I can watch those linked to it from OOTS dissolve in agony at the lack of outdated features to argue about. What was the time lag for the last ones? I'd think 7-10 strips is realistic for an ending, he's hinted that Belkar's not going to die quite yet ('last nale in the coffin') though that might be a ruse. Edit: quote:Dungeon Crawlin' Fools 2005 1–121 Not sure how those match up with the strips in question. sebmojo fucked around with this message at 03:19 on Aug 28, 2013 |
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Aug 28, 2013 03:02
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Man I don't even feel comfortable speculating who's going to die next because in the past six or seven strips we've seen lots of named characters die with no warning whatsoever. A magic nuke could go off. (Actually one just DID, but still...)
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Aug 28, 2013 03:05
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Regalingualius posted:Well, just wondering out of curiosity's sake more than anything else... What would be an example of a situation where a Paladin would become Fallen no matter what? This might have been mentioned in the 2nd Ed Complete Book of Paladins. I tried to look and got derailed somewhere in the Daily Life of a Paladin section. (Their examples are a male paladin who sits on watch for 8 hours and then recite a poem at dinner; and a female paladin who seems to be undercover as a nun.) sfwarlock fucked around with this message at 21:36 on Aug 28, 2013 |
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Aug 28, 2013 03:05
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DoctorTristan posted:The thing that's always confused me about her alignment is that she's a succubus yet works for Lee, the lawful evil archfiend. Not that it's really relevant, but 4e kicked the succubus over to the devil side, since they felt it fit better with the "temptation and subjugation" bend for the devils than the "absolute destruction" angle they were going for with the demons. The better answer is, as already discussed, "gently caress alignment."
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Aug 28, 2013 04:41
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LightWarden posted:Not that it's really relevant, but 4e kicked the succubus over to the devil side, since they felt it fit better with the "temptation and subjugation" bend for the devils than the "absolute destruction" angle they were going for with the demons. An Outsider can change their alignment just like a mortal can, meaning that if one really wanted to you could find a Lawful Good Succubus. However, most outsiders (including all the demons, daemons, devils and their good counterparts, as well as the Slaad and Modrons/Formians [Modrons are a thousand times cooler]) have bodies that are literally just condensed alignment. So a LAwful Good Succubus would register as Lawful and Good to Detect spells, but will also register as Evil and Chaotic because her body is made of those forces.
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Aug 28, 2013 05:38
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Who What Now posted:An Outsider can change their alignment just like a mortal can, meaning that if one really wanted to you could find a Lawful Good Succubus. However, most outsiders (including all the demons, daemons, devils and their good counterparts, as well as the Slaad and Modrons/Formians [Modrons are a thousand times cooler]) have bodies that are literally just condensed alignment. So a LAwful Good Succubus would register as Lawful and Good to Detect spells, but will also register as Evil and Chaotic because her body is made of those forces. It's also really hard for them to change alignment because it's against their nature and they are born into their alignment.
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Aug 28, 2013 07:28
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Who What Now posted:An Outsider can change their alignment just like a mortal can, meaning that if one really wanted to you could find a Lawful Good Succubus. However, most outsiders (including all the demons, daemons, devils and their good counterparts, as well as the Slaad and Modrons/Formians [Modrons are a thousand times cooler]) have bodies that are literally just condensed alignment. So a LAwful Good Succubus would register as Lawful and Good to Detect spells, but will also register as Evil and Chaotic because her body is made of those forces. MonsterEnvy posted:It's also really hard for them to change alignment because it's against their nature and they are born into their alignment. This of course means that rebellious roleplayers are drawn to them like moths to a flame, and the vast majority of evil outsiders created in fiction are actively fighting against their natures, most of them quite successfully. Because when you have an entire set of monsters made of pure evil, what you REALLY want to see is them be good.
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Aug 28, 2013 07:37
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Vorgen posted:This of course means that rebellious roleplayers are drawn to them like moths to a flame, and the vast majority of evil outsiders created in fiction are actively fighting against their natures, most of them quite successfully. Because when you have an entire set of monsters made of pure evil, what you REALLY want to see is them be good. Hey guys, I've got really this great idea, listen to this: What if there was a dark elf, right, and what if he was a good guy? I know right?! My brain is amazing, I need to start writing this poo poo down.
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Aug 28, 2013 07:40
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Vorgen posted:Because when you have an entire set of monsters made of pure evil, what you REALLY want to see is them be good. And then, once your other party members see that there is goodness even in fiends, they start to feel bad about slaughtering them by the dozens during your adventures. Inevitably, this ends with an orphanage for baby balors.
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Aug 28, 2013 09:09
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Cat Mattress posted:Inevitably, this ends with an orphanage for baby balors. Drizzt of the Valley of the Wind.
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Aug 28, 2013 09:21
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Ursine Asylum posted:Drizzt of the Valley of the Wind. God now you've got me thinking about this and how the character of Drizzt just doesn't work.
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Aug 28, 2013 09:47
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Y'know, all the recent talk of Belkar's impending demise has gotten me to thinking: Is there a chance that the Oracle, knowingly or not, has been bullshitting the Order? Say, whoever/however he gets his prophecies from (Tiamat?) would stand to gain quite a bit if Belkar ends up dying forever, as a direct result of the rest of the Order not bothering to try to save him?
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Aug 28, 2013 10:25
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I know this is old, but:Mniot posted:Does anyone know of a game that successfully manages to have morality exist as an object in the game-world? I don't mean games that make you think about morality, but games where you could say, "sell me 50 grams of Evil" in a shop or something and have a game system that doesn't fall apart? I think Kill Puppies for Satan is the closest-sounding thing to that that I've heard of. Fable II was the only one in the series I played for more than five minutes and it had all sorts of ways to become a corrupt demonic monster, down to eating cute fuzzy baby chickens for the sole purpose of gaining corruption points. I eventually got stonewalled on my evil playthrough when I reached a major character who refused to talk to me because I wasn't famous enough yet... probably because I kept slaughtering everyone instead of impressing them. Also, I see a potential parallel between Belkar and Kraagor in terms of heroic sacrifice from a vertically-challenged bloodthirsty barbarian.
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Aug 28, 2013 10:44
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Regalingualius posted:Y'know, all the recent talk of Belkar's impending demise has gotten me to thinking: Is there a chance that the Oracle, knowingly or not, has been bullshitting the Order? Say, whoever/however he gets his prophecies from (Tiamat?) would stand to gain quite a bit if Belkar ends up dying forever, as a direct result of the rest of the Order not bothering to try to save him? Frankly? No. Burlew has a lot invested in the story plank that the Oracle's prophecies always come true, and there is basically nothing to gain from going HAHA FOOLED U. I mean I could be wrong, but it seems reeeeal unlikely.
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Aug 28, 2013 10:51
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Even a 'HAHA FOOLED U' means that the prophecy came true, likely due to the Orders negligence in protecting him.
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Aug 28, 2013 11:36
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Yeah, I think it's entirely feasable the prophecies cause outcomes that wouldn't happen if they weren't made, as long as they happen. No idea about whether it could be used to deliberately deliver a prophecy that causes a desired outcome, but if Tiamat were that powerful, you'd think she could've foreseen and stopped the death of a fifth of the black dragons from familicide. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 11:43 on Aug 28, 2013 |
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Aug 28, 2013 11:39
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I honestly believe we might see Belkar breaking his fate, as it were. I mean his whole deal with Shojo is how to break the rules but still work with those that follow them. I mean if anyone's could break the Kobold Prophet's streak of being 100% right thematically Belkar's the guy to do it.
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Aug 28, 2013 14:44
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Cat Mattress posted:And then, once your other party members see that there is goodness even in fiends, they start to feel bad about slaughtering them by the dozens during your adventures. Your character has to retire from adventuring eventually. Do you want to wind up a generic king of a generic small kingdom in a generic castle, or do you want to be the slightly frazzled elderly teacher running a small daycare catering exclusively to CR 14+ demons?
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Aug 28, 2013 22:10
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Mystic Mongol posted:Your character has to retire from adventuring eventually. Do you want to wind up a generic king of a generic small kingdom in a generic castle, or do you want to be the slightly frazzled elderly teacher running a small daycare catering exclusively to CR 14+ demons? TOGETHER, THEY SOLVE CRIMES
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Aug 28, 2013 22:22
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Mystic Mongol posted:Your character has to retire from adventuring eventually. Do you want to wind up a generic king of a generic small kingdom in a generic castle, or do you want to be the slightly frazzled elderly teacher running a small daycare catering exclusively to CR 14+ demons? Reminds me of an old campaign I was in: "No Mr. Party Paladin, you won't lose your alignment if we leave the Lizardfolk hatchlings to die. Ugh, no, we're NOT taking them with us. No, no prison will take them. NO, there is no one in town that will take them in. No, this kingdom does not have functioning Lizardfolk orphanages. No, the regular orphanages are understaffed as it is, the kingdom is suffering a recession and has dramatically reduced its social services. No, it is not dishonorable to surprise the enemy and attack them. No, please don't use your surprise round to issue an honorable challenge to the kobolds..." ETC FOR DAYS.
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Aug 28, 2013 23:23
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D1Sergo posted:Reminds me of an old campaign I was in: The more I hear such stories, the more I gain appreciation in hindsight for how my high school tabletop group would cut to the chase and just play unashamedly amoral sociopaths from the start.
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Aug 28, 2013 23:31
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D1Sergo posted:Reminds me of an old campaign I was in: Dad-paladin and his adopted lizardkids sounds super cool and clearly you guys needed to step up your roleplayin to meet him.
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Aug 28, 2013 23:58
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D1Sergo posted:Reminds me of an old campaign I was in: To be honest I'd like to play with the Paladin who tries to find a home for lost lizardfolk more than the one who leaves them to die because 
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Aug 29, 2013 00:00
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ImpAtom posted:To be honest I'd like to play with the Paladin who tries to find a home for lost lizardfolk more than the one who leaves them to die because
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Aug 29, 2013 00:03
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ImpAtom posted:To be honest I'd like to play with the Paladin who tries to find a home for lost lizardfolk more than the one who leaves them to die because Generally the issue - as with most problems with paladins - is that only the paladin gives a poo poo so they end up hijacking the campaign. An entire team that spent as much time dealing with the collateral damage of their heroism as they do killing and looting would be pretty fun, though.
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Aug 29, 2013 00:05
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ImpAtom posted:To be honest I'd like to play with the Paladin who tries to find a home for lost lizardfolk more than the one who leaves them to die because In hindsight I agree, the rest of us just kind of wanted to be done with the lizardfolk issue instead of being cool and rolling with it. On the other hand, it was kind of hard to not feel silly discussing the ethics of rescuing hissing lizard babies after we just burst in and brutally murdered their parents.
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Aug 29, 2013 00:24
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:Dad-paladin and his adopted lizardkids sounds super cool and clearly you guys needed to step up your roleplayin to meet him. You could do a sequel campaign where the father dies and you have a group of teenage lizard paladins trying to reach the paladin order and warn them. Along the way, all the villages assume they're some sort of war party and treat them unfairly, and they have their values tested when they meet a group of lizardmen who accept them but do things they find morally wrong.
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Aug 29, 2013 00:26
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NihilCredo posted:The more I hear such stories, the more I gain appreciation in hindsight for how my high school tabletop group would cut to the chase and just play unashamedly amoral sociopaths from the start. We played a straight evil campaign once. Only rule was that we had to be loyal to the party, to prevent the annoying backstabbing that occurred in our drow campaign. We had a necromancer, a priest of an evil death god, a barbarian, a rogue, and an evil ranger. By 12th level we had built an unholy temple in the sewers, where we held unspeakably evil rituals in order to gain boons from our dark god. We had a small army of undead, and ventured out by night to pillage and take captives for our dark acts. We had alliances with beholders, slavers, and just about anyone else. We had mentally dominated half the civil servants of the city, and pretty much had a reign of terror going, along with unbalanced wealth and power from our dark pacts. We eventually got destroyed because we got cocky and too notorious, when we stopped trying to hide our cult, we were tpk by our DM playing the good characters from our last campaign. It was refreshing to play out the mechanics of being so completely evil.
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Aug 29, 2013 00:27
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ImpAtom posted:To be honest I'd like to play with the Paladin who tries to find a home for lost lizardfolk more than the one who leaves them to die because The correct answer is to humanely euthanize the baby monsters with an axe. Even if you can find some orphanage willing to take in despised evil races, you know those kids are just going to end up enslaved or something -- in both RL history and nearly every medieval fantasy setting orphanages are not happy places. If you leave them on their own they will probably slowly starve to death which is cruel. Plus there is a not insignificant chance some of them will manage to survive, but grow up with a huge grudge against humans and cause far more mayhem than their parents ever did. No. The proper thing to do is to dispatch them as calmly and humanely as possible. Don't be cruel, don't laugh and make sport of it, just do what needs to be done and move on.
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Aug 29, 2013 00:51
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Lizardmen are racially True Neutral, not Evil.
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Aug 29, 2013 00:55
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Angela Christine posted:The correct answer is to humanely euthanize the baby monsters with an axe. Even if you can find some orphanage willing to take in despised evil races, you know those kids are just going to end up enslaved or something -- in both RL history and nearly every medieval fantasy setting orphanages are not happy places. If you leave them on their own they will probably slowly starve to death which is cruel. Plus there is a not insignificant chance some of them will manage to survive, but grow up with a huge grudge against humans and cause far more mayhem than their parents ever did. No. The proper thing to do is to dispatch them as calmly and humanely as possible. Don't be cruel, don't laugh and make sport of it, just do what needs to be done and move on. You have no idea what you're about to unleash here.
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Aug 29, 2013 01:08
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Angela Christine posted:The correct answer is to humanely euthanize the baby monsters with an axe. Even if you can find some orphanage willing to take in despised evil races, you know those kids are just going to end up enslaved or something -- in both RL history and nearly every medieval fantasy setting orphanages are not happy places. If you leave them on their own they will probably slowly starve to death which is cruel. Plus there is a not insignificant chance some of them will manage to survive, but grow up with a huge grudge against humans and cause far more mayhem than their parents ever did. No. The proper thing to do is to dispatch them as calmly and humanely as possible. Don't be cruel, don't laugh and make sport of it, just do what needs to be done and move on. So basically what the Sapphire Guard did. That certainly worked out well with no blowback whatsoever
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Aug 29, 2013 01:14
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