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TheStampede posted:See, I don't really agree with that. Maybe some of them are more mortal then others, but I think Magnus and Vulkan (especially now that we know more about his nature) are very clearly NOT mortal. I agree that they are mortal - as evidenced by Fulgrim taking Ferrus Manus' head clean off. That being said, I think some Primarchs are more touched by the warp than others are, and some have ascended into daemonhood by the end of the HH.
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Aug 28, 2013 15:29
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TheStampede posted:See, I don't really agree with that. Maybe some of them are more mortal then others, but I think Magnus and Vulkan (especially now that we know more about his nature) are very clearly NOT mortal. Magnus, before his ascension, was very mortal and more than happy to die when the Space Wolves came for him. The latest story about Vulkan's super regeneration was written by Nick Kyme. I also highly doubt that GW is going to have a change of heart and push the story forward into the 42nd Millennium.
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Aug 28, 2013 15:33
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TheStampede posted:Plus, saying we'll never find out may be a bit bold. Yeah, no, it will never happen. I am waiting for GW to collapse and sell off the IP rights in desperation so that someone decent can actually advance the story and take all of my money. As long as GW is in charge, the universe will stay static.
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Aug 28, 2013 15:38
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berzerkmonkey posted:I agree that they are mortal - as evidenced by Fulgrim taking Ferrus Manus' head clean off. That being said, I think some Primarchs are more touched by the warp than others are, and some have ascended into daemonhood by the end of the HH. I didn't want to write off Manus, but that's where I mean I think some are more mortal than others. But maybe I'm using a poor choice of words. What I'm trying to get at is that, while not specifically "immortal", I think they are at least beyond simple mortal trifles, like nutrition and sanity. I think their close association to the warp might protect them from some of it's more maddening effects. If Astartes can be designed to feel no fear and face the madness of the warp full on, I think a Primarch could cope with it pretty well, if not better. And I don't recall exactly, but aren't Astartes practically immortal (up until the die horribly)? They could live forever, but they never make it that long? That's probably based on them at least getting proper food, but I don't really know for sure. Seems like a Primarch would at least have that luxury, and probably more. Kegslayer posted:Magnus, before his ascension, was very mortal and more than happy to die when the Space Wolves came for him. The latest story about Vulkan's super regeneration was written by Nick Kyme. Yeah, it's maybe a bad addition, but I think it is interesting if it fleshes the Primarchs out more as aspects of the Emperor. I haven't read that (and will probably skip it based on peoples recommendations), but that is the lore now, whether we like it or not. Also, they don't have to push it to the 42 millennium if they just finally get around to saying what Russ has been up to for the last ~10k years. It could be concurrent with the present timeline.
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Aug 28, 2013 15:51
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TheStampede posted:I didn't want to write off Manus, but that's where I mean I think some are more mortal than others. But maybe I'm using a poor choice of words. What I'm trying to get at is that, while not specifically "immortal", I think they are at least beyond simple mortal trifles, like nutrition and sanity. I think their close association to the warp might protect them from some of it's more maddening effects. If Astartes can be designed to feel no fear and face the madness of the warp full on, I think a Primarch could cope with it pretty well, if not better. There's definitely material talking about how very old Astartes have reduced physical abilities compared to their younger selves, which could imply they experience senescence like normal humans, but at a vastly delayed rate (and with a peak and decline rate different from normal humans owing to all the stuff they got shot up with during initiation, probably). Of course, you also have individuals like Dante who as far as anyone knows can kick virtually any enemy's poo poo in despite being over 1,000 years old. I'd think "aging" would be a chapter-by-chapter basis thing with the understanding that pretty much every Astartes will die violently before they die of old age, aside from Chapters whose gene seed suggests indefinite lifespan (possibly Salamanders and successors given Vulkan's immortality, possibly Blood Angels and successors given Dante's age and vitality).
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Aug 28, 2013 16:25
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Nephilm posted:He's very much alive, being one of the primarchs that survived the Heresy and then just sort of... disappeared, in the following centuries. And unlike Leman Russ, he did leave behind instructions for his sons, cryptic as they may be. Vulkan Lives has some suggestions that move it toward ambiguity. I'd say "read Vulkan Lives" except it sucks so maybe don't read it. Man, why can't an awesome author get the Salamanders? Maybe the next one, the authors end comments indicate someone else will run with it from here
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Aug 28, 2013 16:32
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Pyrolocutus posted:I'd think "aging" would be a chapter-by-chapter basis thing with the understanding that pretty much every Astartes will die violently before they die of old age, aside from Chapters whose gene seed suggests indefinite lifespan (possibly Salamanders and successors given Vulkan's immortality, possibly Blood Angels and successors given Dante's age and vitality). space Marines dying of old age was retconned. It used to be that the blood angels were special and had increased life spans which was why Dante being such an old fart was "a thing". Nowadays they are functionally immortal as long as they stay physically fit and healthy. Previously Logan Grimnir being 4-500 years old meant that he was nearing the end of his life, however now he kicks just as much arse as ever. Marines die in battle or not at all basically.
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Aug 28, 2013 16:40
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Dravs posted:space Marines dying of old age was retconned. It used to be that the blood angels were special and had increased life spans which was why Dante being such an old fart was "a thing". Nowadays they are functionally immortal as long as they stay physically fit and healthy. Previously Logan Grimnir being 4-500 years old meant that he was nearing the end of his life, however now he kicks just as much arse as ever. Marines die in battle or not at all basically. Nnnno, actually, marines dying of old age isn't something was so much retconned as it's just something that's kind of skirted around. It varies wildly, but astartes do get old, and they do suffer a level of decreased ability as a result that tends to be compensated for with experience, but it's still present. Ultimately, the larger factor to not deploy a senior Astartes is that esteemed veterans tend to take on other duties around the chapter, but still they will go to the field as the situation calls. Marines too old or wounded beyond recovery (that don't get interred in dreadnoughts) become permanent instructors, lorekeepers and senior apothecaries - it is these guys that we don't know how long they tend to stick around, but presumably they're not immortal because the only (non dreadnought) space marine we know that has lived more than 600 years is Dante, a case that's made even more special because he's both very combat capable (hasn't been torn apart a dozen times over), and hasn't succumbed to the natural Blood Angels death clock.
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Aug 28, 2013 17:50
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VanSandman posted:Gotta agree with this. While, say, Russ would probably be best for the Imperium from a purely generalship perspective, Know No Fear made it clear that Roboute is both a drat good general and an incredible administrator. Eh, that's in part because he got a good treatment by a strong writer. I bet a lot of the other primarchs are also really good managers, we just don't hear about it because it's not as glamorous. for instance, the Khan seems to entirely understand and believe in the crusade, considering it's basically exactly what he did on his home planet but on a larger scale.
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Aug 28, 2013 18:06
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berzerkmonkey posted:I agree that they are mortal - as evidenced by Fulgrim taking Ferrus Manus' head clean off. That being said, I think some Primarchs are more touched by the warp than others are, and some have ascended into daemonhood by the end of the HH. Ah, but Manus was killed by a special warp-tainted blade. If they are indeed sort of quasi-daemon princes that are creatures of both the warp and the material world, then it's possible that he couldn't have been killed by mortal means but only by another primarch or by warp sorcery. Which also explains why the Emperor slaying Horus forever is described as a big deal. The edge case of Rogal Dorn could be explained as a sort of suicide - Dorn, stricken by grief over his failure to protect his beloved father, allows himself to die. Or fakes his own death. Or is in a netherworld and will one day return to beg the Emperor's forgiveness. Who knows. That's the whole fun of the setting - nobody knows anything for sure and all information is ultimately unreliable. Dravs posted:Yeah, no, it will never happen. I am waiting for GW to collapse and sell off the IP rights in desperation so that someone decent can actually advance the story and take all of my money. It's better to want than to have. I think we all know that any attempt at ending the universe and wrapping everything up will be stupid and ultimately unsatisfying. I'd rather they go back and cover stuff like the Age of Apostasy than try to advance the main setting, since we all know that any sort of "progress" or "advancement" is bullshit since there's no way they're going to actually end the universe in one of the many, many possible ways in which one faction or another can win. Because that would be dumb and pointless. OXBALLS DOT COM fucked around with this message at 18:26 on Aug 28, 2013 |
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Aug 28, 2013 18:08
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Cream_Filling posted:Eh, that's in part because he got a good treatment by a strong writer. I bet a lot of the other primarchs are also really good managers, we just don't hear about it because it's not as glamorous. for instance, the Khan seems to entirely understand and believe in the crusade, considering it's basically exactly what he did on his home planet but on a larger scale. None of the other Primarchs built anything like Ultramar. And none of the other Primarchs seem to have put in as much work as Gulliman in planning and preparing his Marines to do something other than making eternal war.
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Aug 28, 2013 18:17
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Cream_Filling posted:Ah, but Manus was killed by a special warp-tainted blade. If they are indeed sort of quasi-daemon princes that are creatures of the warp, then it's possible that he couldn't have been killed by mortal means but only by another primarch or by warp sorcery. Cream_Filling posted:It's better to want than to have. I think we all know that any attempt at ending the universe and wrapping everything up will be stupid and ultimately unsatisfying.
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Aug 28, 2013 18:18
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Kenlon posted:None of the other Primarchs built anything like Ultramar. And none of the other Primarchs seem to have put in as much work as Gulliman in planning and preparing his Marines to do something other than making eternal war. Didn't Vulkan train his men to smith incredible metal work and live among the communities? Or was that retconned out?
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Aug 28, 2013 18:19
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Kenlon posted:None of the other Primarchs built anything like Ultramar. And none of the other Primarchs seem to have put in as much work as Gulliman in planning and preparing his Marines to do something other than making eternal war. None of the other primarchs grew up as princes on a high-tech civilized world with many nearby human planets. Most grew up on primitive hellhole backwaters and were often discovered before they'd even ventured out into space. Fulgrim trained his legion to be artists and scholars. Manus to be advancers of technology, Vulkan to be craftsmen and guides for human society. We don't know how much planning and preparation the other primarchs did because we haven't seen much of their stories as written by decent writers except a handful of the evil ones. And even Lorgar assembled a fanatical theocratic empire and ironically ended up setting down the roots of the faith that has lasted for 10,000 years and currently runs the Imperium. OXBALLS DOT COM fucked around with this message at 18:24 on Aug 28, 2013 |
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Aug 28, 2013 18:21
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berzerkmonkey posted:That's true - you bring up a good point. I guess I was thinking "mortal" in the sense that they could indeed be killed and not "mortal" in the sense that he fell off of a stepladder while changing the lightbulb and died. Oh man, what if this is what happened to one of the lost Primarchs? Edit: VVV ...and he isn't actually gone, just forgotten. He's been toiling away at his desk for the last 10 millennium because, "I'm neck deep in paperwork and don't have any time to step away from the desk for this Heresy nonsense. These TPS reports need to be ready and filed by the quarterly meeting tomorrow, dang it!" TheStampede fucked around with this message at 18:35 on Aug 28, 2013 |
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Aug 28, 2013 18:23
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Didn't we do a running joke ITT about how one of the missing primarchs ended up in middle managment. "The Glorius Bob Smith from accounting led his team to a crushing victory at the companies mandated softball game!"
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Aug 28, 2013 18:28
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While I know they will never advance the plot because money, I'd instantly snap up any 'what if' type stories if any were written by a good author. I think it's a missed opportunity, but I can understand why they wouldn't want to do it (don't give nerds an out while they still buy your stuff, basically).
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Aug 28, 2013 18:32
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The only Primarch who is alive, uncorrupted and accounted for is Lion'El. The Watchers in the Dark may be awaiting an order from the Emperor to revive him (nobody else in the Imperium knows of his status), an order that can never come.VanSandman posted:While I know they will never advance the plot because money, I'd instantly snap up any 'what if' type stories if any were written by a good author. I think it's a missed opportunity, but I can understand why they wouldn't want to do it (don't give nerds an out while they still buy your stuff, basically).
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Aug 28, 2013 18:41
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Because the whole point of 40K is the stagnation - the eternal war against Chaos.
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Aug 28, 2013 18:47
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berzerkmonkey posted:Because the whole point of 40K is the stagnation - the eternal war against Chaos. Somebody find the big ADB post about this topic so I can empty quote it.
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Aug 28, 2013 18:52
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In these sorts of stories the answers are almost never as fulfilling as the question promises. For example: Q: "What happened during the Heresy." A: "Battle for the Abyss."
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Aug 28, 2013 18:53
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Q: What was happening in Dawn of War A: MULTILASERS
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Aug 28, 2013 18:56
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I all ways took immortal to mean that they wouldn't ever die unless they were helped along.
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Aug 28, 2013 19:16
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VanSandman posted:While I know they will never advance the plot because money, I'd instantly snap up any 'what if' type stories if any were written by a good author. I think it's a missed opportunity, but I can understand why they wouldn't want to do it (don't give nerds an out while they still buy your stuff, basically). They could do it if they framed those what-ifs as the ravings of lunatic warp-touched oracles. Would make a pretty interesting short-story anthology. Baron Bifford posted:I don't believe that. Why should advancing the plot damage the franchise? Star Trek and Star Wars saw their story worlds extended, and it didn't do any harm (in fact, it brought in more money). You can still have battles and novels set in the 41st millenium as well as during the Horus Heresy and the Time of Ending. The only risk is that a badly executed ToE story arc would deflate the tension of the AoI era (so the ToE might have to be even more grimdark). I'm laughing here if you hold up the Star Wars EU or the horrible Star Trek books as an example of anything other than "this is how you don't manage an IP."
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Aug 28, 2013 19:28
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Cream_Filling posted:They could do it if they framed those what-ifs as the ravings of lunatic warp-touched oracles. Would make a pretty interesting short-story anthology. Only TV and movies are official for Trek. Everything else is fanfiction. I do like your framing idea. Maybe Abaddon goes to some Tzeentchian oracle or whoever is the Night Lord fellow who can see the future (go read the night lord trilogy).
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Aug 28, 2013 19:34
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Star Wars and Star Trek expanded universes are an example of how to whore out an IP, and try and keep selling it after its loose and filled with STDs. Might as well include Battletech in there. The Horus Heresy, by comparison, has been really good. I mean, half the writers are poo poo, but to a degree they all work together in how to handle the IP and try to be careful with it.
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Aug 28, 2013 19:35
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VanSandman posted:Only TV and movies are official for Trek. Everything else is fanfiction. Or just an anthology or book framed like the old Liber Chaotica, which included a moderately obfuscated account of the rise and fall of the Eldar and various stuff of Chaos Marines even though it was primarily a Warhammer Fantasy book. Just make the theme be "what if potential futures" and frame them as various classified inquisition transcripts from insane possessed psykers before they were destroyed, forgotten eldar prophesies, mysterious cryptic etchings discovered inside the core of a dead world, printouts from an infernal machine discovered by the mechanicus inside a space hulk, etc., all completely contradictory to each other and to the standard continuity (and even sometimes self-contradictory). OXBALLS DOT COM fucked around with this message at 19:44 on Aug 28, 2013 |
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Aug 28, 2013 19:41
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Cream_Filling posted:They could do it if they framed those what-ifs as the ravings of lunatic warp-touched oracles. Would make a pretty interesting short-story anthology.
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Aug 28, 2013 19:55
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Fellblade posted:Somebody find the big ADB post about this topic so I can empty quote it. I should have been more clear and said 40K the game. Ultimately, the game is all that matters and status quo keeps the armies where they're at. GW has no interest in upsetting the game by advancing the story, because if they do, they fear they'll lose people. And what is the ADB post? I don't think I've seen it.
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Aug 28, 2013 19:57
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Baron Bifford posted:I'm talking about TNG, DS9, the SW prequel trilogy (lame as it was, it didn't really destroy the first trilogy). TNG was a remake, and DS9 was a side-sequel to said remake, and they both worked on the formula that 95% of the time, what happened in one episode didn't matter for the rest (unless they wanted to) so there was no plot advancement (and when there was, it was shallow). And the prequels didn't destroy the original SW trilogy; Lucas has been taking care of that himself as some sort of life-mission.
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Aug 28, 2013 20:04
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berzerkmonkey posted:I should have been more clear and said 40K the game. Ultimately, the game is all that matters and status quo keeps the armies where they're at. GW has no interest in upsetting the game by advancing the story, because if they do, they fear they'll lose people. I'm not recalling it, but I'd say check my post history in this thread. I spend so much time rah-rah-ing ADB that I probably either linked it or quoted whoever did
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Aug 28, 2013 20:54
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Cream_Filling posted:Or just an anthology or book framed like the old Liber Chaotica, which included a moderately obfuscated account of the rise and fall of the Eldar and various stuff of Chaos Marines even though it was primarily a Warhammer Fantasy book. Just make the theme be "what if potential futures" and frame them as various classified inquisition transcripts from insane possessed psykers before they were destroyed, forgotten eldar prophesies, mysterious cryptic etchings discovered inside the core of a dead world, printouts from an infernal machine discovered by the mechanicus inside a space hulk, etc., all completely contradictory to each other and to the standard continuity (and even sometimes self-contradictory). White Wolf did something like this for Werewolf: The Apocalypse and it was somewhat amusing. In general though I agree that advancing the setting would bring about more potential harm than good. Look at what happened to Battletech. They advanced it, and we ended up with that retarded Dark Ages poo poo.
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Aug 29, 2013 00:40
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The Rat posted:White Wolf did something like this for Werewolf: The Apocalypse and it was somewhat amusing. In general though I agree that advancing the setting would bring about more potential harm than good. Look at what happened to Battletech. They advanced it, and we ended up with that retarded Dark Ages poo poo. To be fair, Battletech writing was always terrible; what advancing the plot meant was that the terrible began to build upon terrible until it was all an unmanageable clusterfuck. As I said before, the HH is doing it right, since it is advancing a setting in a controlled manner; for continuing the 40k plotline, you'd just have to move the goalpost further ahead and determine the conclusion to craft the rest of the narrative into.
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Aug 29, 2013 01:07
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Yeah, White Wolf did it for Vampire too - and possibly all the other old World of Darkness books? It worked okay. I don't think they were framed in the way Cream Filling suggested, though, they were just choices as to how the end could play out that players could pick depending on their personal preference.
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Aug 29, 2013 01:10
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Sandy Mitchell needs to hurry the gently caress up and write his Caine vs Dark Eldar novel already.
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Aug 29, 2013 01:11
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Neurosis posted:Yeah, White Wolf did it for Vampire too - and possibly all the other old World of Darkness books? It worked okay. I don't think they were framed in the way Cream Filling suggested, though, they were just choices as to how the end could play out that players could pick depending on their personal preference.
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Aug 29, 2013 01:12
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It might work as - and I'm sorry to say this - an expensive collectors item, well illustrated, kind of like that Xenology book.
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Aug 29, 2013 01:13
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Neurosis posted:Yeah, White Wolf did it for Vampire too - and possibly all the other old World of Darkness books? It worked okay. I don't think they were framed in the way Cream Filling suggested, though, they were just choices as to how the end could play out that players could pick depending on their personal preference. I thought it was because White Wolf was rebooting their entire product line, so they did a bunch of end of the world events to kill off all their old books and official storylines in preparation for the new editions of all their games set in a completely different universe. Dunno, I was never that into White Wolf stuff but I vaguely remember a whole lot of groggy rumblings about the whole thing.
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Aug 29, 2013 02:10
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White Wolf advanced its plot, but it fell into quite a few ditches in doing so. I remember the Black Hand supplement that basically turned the whole setting on its ear (Vampires with time-traveling powers, one of their Disciplines being an alien disease they were trying to contain, etc), and then there was the whole Chaos Factor thing that was set to kickstart the End times for all factions but mostly added to the mess (to be expected when you have a werewold/mage/ghoul/hedge wizard/thaumaturgist as the main antagonist). On the other hand, the steady escalation of the story was a good thing, and done right more often then not (it's just that the bungled ones were BIG). I wonder how one could do the same in a wargame setting: you can't have Abaddon overrun or blow up Cadia because it would mess with their IG model line and make IG players mad. Can't have Tyranids eat a big SM chapter for the same reason. Orks will rampage across secondary worlds and crump random chapters but never, say, crush the Farsight enclave.
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Aug 29, 2013 04:15
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Cream_Filling posted:I thought it was because White Wolf was rebooting their entire product line, so they did a bunch of end of the world events to kill off all their old books and official storylines in preparation for the new editions of all their games set in a completely different universe. Dunno, I was never that into White Wolf stuff but I vaguely remember a whole lot of groggy rumblings about the whole thing. They did reboot their product line, but my recollection (admittedly hazy) is that they had always promised the setting would have a conclusion, even when NWoD wasn't something they'd begun to develop. I could be wrong, I am pretty much a sad nerd that reads lore for all these cool settings but only plays the videogames and never the tabletops, so I don't follow it all super closely.
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Aug 29, 2013 07:26
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