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The question is more to find those with utterly unrealistic expectations which we know we cannot fill. If you say you have been offered a job with a salary double what we would consider paying for you, then our instinct is that even if we offered you a place you would turn us down so we wouldn't even consider you. If you say you didn't want to discuss it, I would shrug but assume it was low, or you hadn't had any concrete figures yet. If you really don't want to say, then: If they are talking about offers you have had, just say you haven't had the details yet. If they are asking about previous jobs, you can leave out a figure, and say it was low & give a reasonable excuse e.g. 'I had very little experience so was happy to take it for a while, but I am awesome now' or even 'I was naive and didn't know the going rate' - but if you pull that second one you had better know what the going rate actually is - the followup question will surely be 'so what do you think the going rate is?' The only real 'danger' with the question is pricing yourself out of a job. Being naive, out of touch with salaries, you only did it for necessity/experience etc. is fine. lovely companies may try and use a too-low figure to start you on a lower salary, but those are the companies you probably don't want to work for anyway. But honestly those are few & far between - most will have just a couple of fixed starting salaries based on your skill & experience.
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Aug 29, 2013 09:27
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OzyMandrill posted:The only real 'danger' with the question is pricing yourself out of a job. Being naive, out of touch with salaries, you only did it for necessity/experience etc. is fine. lovely companies may try and use a too-low figure to start you on a lower salary, but those are the companies you probably don't want to work for anyway. But honestly those are few & far between - most will have just a couple of fixed starting salaries based on your skill & experience. That perception of that danger is what leads to some people to lowball themselves. It's a crappy question.
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Aug 29, 2013 12:12
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Sab669 posted:Got any openings? Actually yeah, there's something like 6-7 openings iirc. If you don't mind Missouri (the area isn't that bad actually, it's a city of about 100k with a large university so there's a lot of stuff to do) then try applying at Carfax we're really serious about hiring new people right now.
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Aug 29, 2013 13:36
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That's more than I make full time where I am, heh.
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Holy poo poo I was offered a job on the spot today  should be at least a 50% increase over where I am now but I'll be starting out as a contract for either 6 or 12 months, not 100% certain yet. They said their HR will be in touch soon after offering me the role.Junior C# windows dev, thanks for all the help goons!!!
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Aug 29, 2013 20:02
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Sab669 posted:Holy poo poo I was offered a job on the spot today
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Aug 29, 2013 20:15
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Sab669 posted:Holy poo poo I was offered a job on the spot today Wayne Gratzky!
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Aug 29, 2013 22:41
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NovemberMike posted:Actually yeah, there's something like 6-7 openings iirc. If you don't mind Missouri (the area isn't that bad actually, it's a city of about 100k with a large university so there's a lot of stuff to do) then try applying at Carfax we're really serious about hiring new people right now. Ooo, I nearly applied there out of school (I went to Truman, up the road in Kirksville), but there wasn't much entry-level open at the time iirc. Columbia isn't a bad town, as far as mid-small Midwest towns go. Still have lots of friends there.
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Aug 29, 2013 23:21
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Uziel posted:That's awesome, congrats. Is it local to where you are now? Not even slightly. Live in Providence, this is in Buffalo NY, which is where my bestest bro lives and I should be moving in with him. So, really, even better than local. However, I drive a small coupe so moving will be a pain but oh well
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Aug 29, 2013 23:44
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OzyMandrill posted:The question is more to find those with utterly unrealistic expectations which we know we cannot fill. If you say you have been offered a job with a salary double what we would consider paying for you, then our instinct is that even if we offered you a place you would turn us down so we wouldn't even consider you. Always push employers *hard* on salaries.
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Aug 29, 2013 23:56
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Has anyone ever actually priced themselves out of a job? Seems very unlikely. I think the risk vs. reward on asking for a high or unreasonable salary is heavily slanted towards the reward. I know for me I will always make a salary demand that I consider *just* about ridiculous. What kind of company would find someone they like and turn them down without even making a reasonable counter-offer? Not one I care to work for.
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Aug 30, 2013 00:32
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As long as you're doing this after they've decided they want to hire you, you aren't going to price yourself out of a job on your first offer (or rather, counter-offer. You're only making counter-offers, right?). They've gone through a lot of effort to decide on you, they're going to at least make an attempt to work with you.
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Aug 30, 2013 00:43
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Since we're on salary chat again, I figure this is kind of relevant. I submitted an application for a local company's "software engineer" position. The company's HR person called me and said that my resume indicated that I didn't have enough experience for them to offer me / allow me to apply for a "software engineer" position, because that position requires four years of experience "for legal reasons". But he could send my resume forward for a "junior software engineer" position, because my six-month internship plus my personal projects (which were developed over three months of spare, hobby time) "clearly" met the one year of experience required for a "junior software engineer". Oh, and by the way, that position has a salary range of $47k - $53k and was I comfortable with that? He asked because on my application, I submitted $80k in the "salary desired" field. I said I was "comfortable moving forward". He sent me a link to another online application, this time for a junior position, and I just put $80k in the "desired salary" field again. I got an interview a couple days later, they liked me, and the person in charge of hiring all engineers just asked me "how much money do you want?". I was surprised by this and blurted out "industry average," and then "$60k" when he asked what that was.  He nodded and said that was an appropriate number for a junior developer. He also said that he would expect to promote me to "software engineer" on the day I've been there for a year. Anyway, yesterday, the HR guy called back to let me know what to expect from the hiring process. He said my interviewers were impressed and submitted my application and resume for approval from "the executives" who apparently have to approve all hiring decisions. He pressed me on the salary again, saying that the company doesn't counter-offer if I got an offer somewhere else, and that he remembered telling me that the salary range for a "junior software engineer" at this company is $54k - $60k. I just said okay, and he was like "so are you okay moving forward?" and I said I was. He tried to bring up the salary again a few times and I dodged each one and finally he just asked me if that range was acceptable to me and I told him that I'm evaluating all my options and that I'm comfortable moving forward. The rest of the call was about the timeline on when I can expect an offer (sometime in the next two weeks), but is it wrong of me to feel like they were being a little bit icky here? It seems like HR was lying to me about both the salary ranges and the "legal reasons" for why they couldn't offer me a "software engineer" position, presumably so that they could lowball me harder. Did I handle this horribly? I just don't want to say "yeah, that range sounds good" when asked about $54k - $60k and then get an offer for $54k. Safe and Secure! fucked around with this message at 01:05 on Aug 30, 2013 |
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Aug 30, 2013 01:02
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You named a number and got dinged for it. Lesson learned but depending where you are and starting out that's not too horrendous. Could be a lot worse. Naming a number will always pin you in a corner because you look like a complete rear end in a top hat if you say 'okay' then ask for more unless it's a completely lovely lowball (and you don't want to work at places that lowball anyway).
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Aug 30, 2013 01:18
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If someone offers you £5k more than you were expecting should you ask for even more anyway? I pretty much just said "yeah that it in line with my expectations" and that was that. Then after I wondered if I should have asked for another £2k or something just to see what they'd say.
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Aug 30, 2013 01:21
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Tunga posted:If someone offers you £5k more than you were expecting should you ask for even more anyway? Yes. Of course you do. How is this even a question? If you name something too high, they'll just go "Sorry, but that's a firm offer".
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Aug 30, 2013 01:27
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Tunga posted:If someone offers you £5k more than you were expecting should you ask for even more anyway? I pretty much just said "yeah that it in line with my expectations" and that was that. Then after I wondered if I should have asked for another £2k or something just to see what they'd say. You should have asked for more. Too late now. This is why the first number out of my mouth is always just a little bit unreasonable. Basically my approach is to ask to be paid as if I'm the absolute best software developer in the world and I poo poo golden code nuggets all day, then bargain down from there.
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Aug 30, 2013 01:29
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Safe and Secure! posted:I submitted an application for a local company's "software engineer" position. The company's HR person called me and said that my resume indicated that I didn't have enough experience for them to offer me / allow me to apply for a "software engineer" position, because that position requires four years of experience "for legal reasons". Is this a thing that happens? I've never heard of this happening before but I'm not as in touch with the hiring process as some of you are.
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Aug 30, 2013 01:31
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Here is a magic phrase that a lot of people in this thread seem to be unaware of: "Can I have a moment to think about it?" Christ, you don't even have to say it. Just look pensive for a moment while you get your thoughts in order. If you negotiate salary - hell, if you have any conversation of any importance - by just opening your mouth and letting words fall out, you deserve to pay the idiot tax. coffeetable fucked around with this message at 01:39 on Aug 30, 2013 |
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Aug 30, 2013 01:34
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coffeetable posted:Yes. Of course you do. How is this even a question? If you name something too high, they'll just go "Sorry, but that's a firm offer". I'm happy with the salary and the role but it'd be interesting to know what I could of got since I was obviously grossly underestimating my market value in the first place. Next time I will go hog wild with my demands  .
Tunga fucked around with this message at 01:41 on Aug 30, 2013 |
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Aug 30, 2013 01:39
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Tunga posted:Applied for three jobs in my whole life, got two of them, which is cool but means I have very little experience of the hiring process and don't know what questions to expect. The thing about asking to think about it is right. Fair enough. Like someone said, if you get to the negotiating stage, you've already got the job. It will have cost them thousands of dollars to get this far, they've decided you're their woman/man and they won't let go unless you force them.
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Aug 30, 2013 01:41
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Brannock posted:Is this a thing that happens? I've never heard of this happening before but I'm not as in touch with the hiring process as some of you are.
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Aug 30, 2013 01:43
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coffeetable posted:It will have cost them thousands of dollars to get this far, they've decided you're their woman/man and they won't let go unless you force them.  .
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Aug 30, 2013 01:44
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It is neither appropriate nor productive to be performing qualitative self-evaluation during the hiring process. Don't ask for what you think you're worth. Don't even have a thought about what you're worth. Figuring out how good you are is their job. If they press you for a number, recite something pretty close to the fourth quintile salary among developers in that field in your area.
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Aug 30, 2013 01:45
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Brannock posted:Is this a thing that happens? I've never heard of this happening before but I'm not as in touch with the hiring process as some of you are. I'm a "software engineer" with 0 years experience.
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Aug 30, 2013 01:45
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Bongo Bill posted:If they press you for a number, recite something pretty close to the fourth quintile salary among developers in that field in your area.
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Aug 30, 2013 01:49
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Tunga posted:It's hard to actually figure out what that value is because most people don't go around advertising their salary, no? Is it so hard to use Glassdoor?
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Aug 30, 2013 02:29
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Tunga posted:If someone offers you £5k more than you were expecting should you ask for even more anyway? I pretty much just said "yeah that it in line with my expectations" and that was that. Then after I wondered if I should have asked for another £2k or something just to see what they'd say. dude come on dont be so down on yourself. like look you got a good dick so use it and slap that thing in my hand here let put a little spit on it and shine it up. yeah dude look at that thing pulsing and getting big. feels pretty warm buddy you got this now go on and get more money .
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Aug 30, 2013 05:25
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FamDav posted:dude come on dont be so down on yourself. like look you got a good dick so use it and slap that thing in my hand here let put a little spit on it and shine it up. yeah dude look at that thing pulsing and getting big. feels pretty warm buddy you got this now go on and get more money
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Aug 30, 2013 06:09
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Sarcophallus posted:Is it so hard to use Glassdoor? Edit: V V V "Junior developer" gives me two results in London, "Android developer" gives me none. Maybe I'm being too specific. Edit edit: I also have an unquenchable hatred for any site that constantly tries to make me log in with Facebook for no good reason. Tunga fucked around with this message at 12:04 on Aug 30, 2013 |
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Aug 30, 2013 09:38
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Tunga posted:In the UK, yes. It'll list like two jobs and tell me that the average developer salary is £25k or something hilarious. For a specific company it will, but it's perfectly functional if you're happy to take the time and check a pile of different companies in the same area.
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Aug 30, 2013 11:39
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Safe and Secure! posted:Did I handle this horribly? I just don't want to say "yeah, that range sounds good" when asked about $54k - $60k and then get an offer for $54k. You did paint yourself in a corner there. You can make it clear that the bottom of that range assumes there are very substantial extra benefits involved.
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Aug 30, 2013 12:17
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Tunga posted:In the UK, yes. It'll list like two jobs and tell me that the average developer salary is £25k or something hilarious. A non-obvious issue with glassdoor is that it is a square hole which doesn't fit any companies. Example: look at the entry for SDE I for Amazon. The range for pay is something like 80k-200k. This is through some combination of: 1) Historical data messing with the present day range 2) People putting different combinations of salary/bonus/RSUs for their base income instead of in the correct additional income categories. Glassdoor is bad at telling you much beyond "This job pays poorly/alright/decently/amazingly."
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Aug 30, 2013 15:41
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This thread is fantastic. Lots of good resources to follow up on, but I've got a couple of me-specific questions. For background my degree is in cognitive science, although I did minor in computer science. Coming out of school a year and a bit ago I managed to find a programming job through academia contacts at a startup working mostly in Java in Toronto, getting paid what I ended up discovering was way under market rate. I've since left that job after working there for a full year (did I mention it was a pre-revenue "lean" startup?) and went backpacking through Europe for the summer. Now I'm back and about to start applying for jobs but I'm worried that my degree is going to hold me back. Although I have a year of experience (and for any other newbies, these guys are right when they say you learn more in a month on the job than in a whole semester of school), because of signing the IP away I don't have anything to show of my work. The standard advice for that would be contribute on github, but the github Java scene is mostly Android, which I have 0 experience with. Am I completely overreacting? Is there something I should be doing other than brushing up on my data structures and algorithms? Also if anyone wants to take a look at my resume and let me know how/if I can improve it, it's here. Thanks.
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Aug 30, 2013 19:48
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JimboMaloi posted:This thread is fantastic. Lots of good resources to follow up on, but I've got a couple of me-specific questions. Java on GitHub is way more than just Android... regardless if you have some stuff to put on there, you should. I think having experience is probably a big enough plus on your resume. As for your resume, at a quick glance you probably want to pepper your job experience with the technology you worked with. Just looking at your first job I'm pretty in the dark about what technologies you used, e.g. what languages, what CI system, etc. And for the grants, I have no idea what NSERC USRA means, so either put those only in jobs that would recognize what those grants are, or describe them in a little bit more detail, or just delete them.
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Aug 30, 2013 20:21
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You're nervous because you have no job, not that you are unqualified. Just start applying for jobs and you'll get yourself sorted in 2-3 months.
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Aug 30, 2013 20:22
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JimboMaloi posted:Also if anyone wants to take a look at my resume and let me know how/if I can improve it, it's here. Thanks. Make your name bigger, cut the references. <-- advice from a guy without a job
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Aug 30, 2013 20:24
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JimboMaloi posted:Also if anyone wants to take a look at my resume and let me know how/if I can improve it, it's here. Thanks.
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Aug 30, 2013 20:58
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E: Nevermind.
Safe and Secure! fucked around with this message at 23:28 on Aug 30, 2013 |
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Aug 30, 2013 23:21
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Safe and Secure! posted:Is there any reason why I shouldn't just accept this first offer and cancel the possible interview with the other company? Sure. Company culture and career development. If the other company has a good team that will really foster your professional growth, it's worth considering. I had a job offer once for a place that was close to home and paid about 25% more than I was currently making, and I turned it down. Why? Because they made it clear that they had a terrible corporate culture and no passion for writing quality software.
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Aug 30, 2013 23:29
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Safe and Secure! posted:I just got an email with an offer of $60k. They're also 30 minutes away from my home. I have an in-person interview* coming up with a company that is based 70 minutes away from my home and if I end up getting an offer from them, it's likely to be the same, because I also told that company I was looking for $60-65k. I wouldn't cancel the second interview just yet. First, having some extra interview experience never hurts. Second, having two offers gives you some leverage in negotiations as long as you aren't a douche about it. Third, there's always the chance that you just fall in love with the second company and decide the commute is worth it, or they let you mostly telecommute, or you want to move, or any number of other things.
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Aug 30, 2013 23:34
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