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Strange Matter posted:This point in particular I've been thinking about. As awkward as motion controls often were, I had an awful lot of fun with them. The first time I played Wii Sports Tennis was like a freaking revelation. I remember me and my brother just saying outloud "oh my god this is amazing" and just laughing hysterically. It was a revolution. I remember at launch all my friends bought one that night, and then we all went to my friend's house after we got them and played together on his. We played Wii Sports and it was loving magical. I know motion controls get passed off as a gimmick nowadays but that first night playing Wii Sports with all my friends was great.
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Aug 30, 2013 02:08
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CapnAndy posted:In one fell swoop you get a robust digital distribution system, actually pretty goddamn good DRM that everyone already likes and won't complain about, people can buy your games when they're browsing around the Internet and just have them appear in their libraries, all that good poo poo. Plus your games go on Steam Sale and maybe you even do a Humble Bundle. People will jump into going digital-only with both feet, which is what Sony and Microsoft both want because they are not idiot Luddites, and Nintendo wants it too but they just don't know it yet. And I guarantee you if tomorrow everyone on the Humble Bundle email list got an email saying "hey you can get the latest Zelda game and Mario Kart and three other games you probably would have never played but one of them actually got pretty good reviews, all for paying over the average donation", those people would certainly start thinking that y'know what, maybe they want that console, there's good deals sometimes. It definitely does make sense to me that Nintendo should look seriously into consulting with outside companies, not just for distribution but also for general online infrastructure, media capabilities, and (when the time comes to slap a new machine together) hardware design insight. These are all categories that the company doesn't seem interested in focusing on (or entirely capable of delivering in a polished way), but have become expected elements of the console experience. Part of the trouble is that they don't seem to pick winners when they do consult. Like, Nintendo TVii is conceptually a great idea, but the company they hired to handle it did a crap job on the execution, and so the app isn't worth using. The Wii U could use a proper media app to call its own, with disc playback and a VOD shop, but Nintendo's going to have to find someone better to strike deals with for that to happen.
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Aug 30, 2013 02:09
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They should port some DS games over to the Wii-U and have them playable on the touchpad.
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Aug 30, 2013 02:10
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Macaluso posted:It was a revolution. I remember at launch all my friends bought one that night, and then we all went to my friend's house after we got them and played together on his. We played Wii Sports and it was loving magical. I know motion controls get passed off as a gimmick nowadays but that first night playing Wii Sports with all my friends was great. Basically my night one experience with the Wii. I've never had more fun playing a video game than that first night with Wii Sports Tennis/Bowling. And it was more or less all downhill from there. 
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Aug 30, 2013 03:03
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It was totally awesome for Wii Sports but very janky and not well implemented elsewhere. After years they finetuned a better version that could kind of do what they originally intended it to do, and released a few games that took advantage of it. Then they made a hard right turn to a tablet interface. It's stupid to seemingly abandon development of the motion controls, it's both a waste of the time and effort they spent finetuning it and aggravating to Wii early adopters who hung in there through the growing pains, not to mention alienating the entire base of casual players who hopped onto the fun waggle bandwagon. No one said "Hey this fake-tennis is pretty fun, but imagine if it was a tablet instead?" Like you're jumping niches with no connection at all in between, it seems like they thought people who were enthusiastic about the product itself would somehow become blindly loyal to the Wii brand. I mean I have my issues with the motion controls, games on the Wii that I loved like Mario Galaxy and DKC Returns were great in spite of them, but the solution isn't "Use a tablet instead". Tender Bender fucked around with this message at 03:32 on Aug 30, 2013 |
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Aug 30, 2013 03:26
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Strange Matter posted:You hold the Wiiremote different from any other controller on the market; take advantage of that. Instead of one trigger on the underside, put four down there, one for each of your fingers, and do the same for the Nunchuck; or replace the D-pad with a control stick and let the player use two Wii remotes at once. There, now you have a unique control scheme where the gimmick element exists but doesn't weigh down traditional interface methods. This is basically all they need for an interesting gimmick that no one else is doing. Essentially, take the gamecube's controller, split it in half and connect it via cord, or go full-blown wireless. I think most people would agree that the nunchuck + wiimote setup was awesome in that you could sprawl all over your couch, with a hand behind your head and the other in your lap and just play. You keep everything the Wiimote+ could do, add more buttons/control stick and improve the sensitivity. People can then choose to play their cross-platform games or whatever with one controller. And, bonus, it can still be used for situations where you want motion controls. Suddenly that extra $100 they're charging you could go to more processing power to support games that you want to play. The Wii was a great thing, and if they were to take that model, bring it up to PS4 and XBOX one specs, people would be buying their stuff. The kind of people that buy Nintendo consoles, buy it for their games, not expensive gimmicks. And a nintendo console that could play the same games as the other consoles would probably sell more just because of that.
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Aug 30, 2013 03:37
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CapnAndy posted:In one fell swoop you get a robust digital distribution system, actually pretty goddamn good DRM that everyone already likes and won't complain about, people can buy your games when they're browsing around the Internet and just have them appear in their libraries, all that good poo poo. Plus your games go on Steam Sale and maybe you even do a Humble Bundle. People will jump into going digital-only with both feet, which is what Sony and Microsoft both want because they are not idiot Luddites, and Nintendo wants it too but they just don't know it yet. And I guarantee you if tomorrow everyone on the Humble Bundle email list got an email saying "hey you can get the latest Zelda game and Mario Kart and three other games you probably would have never played but one of them actually got pretty good reviews, all for paying over the average donation", those people would certainly start thinking that y'know what, maybe they want that console, there's good deals sometimes. The thing is, implementing Steam at a technical level isn't that hard. In fact, while the Steam backend is basically solid by now the frontend UI has always been terrible (I guess it was okay eight years ago but there's no excuse for that loving thing now). The reason Steam is successful is not that it is a technical marvel, it's that Valve Gets It. They're able to look at which delivery mechanisms and business processes piss off people the least (or better still, actually make people happy with the service), which ones make them the most money, and they are constantly evaluating that honestly and scientifically, and then they take the results of that research and they Just loving Implement It. The reason you see sales where poo poo is 80% off is that Valve has the data that shows that when they do that, they make money - it's not because Gabe is just a great guy (he is though). They have a corporate culture that is able grok that basic thing, and in this they are utterly unique among the major publishers. Everyone else is way up their own rear end in a top hat with abusive DRM and phone-home policies and who knows what the gently caress else, all of which everyone hates and none of which really work worth a poo poo anyway. Nintendo, I will grant you, occasionally shows signs of maybe almost getting it sometimes as well - then they do something the exact opposite. They're all over the place on this. Point being, by the time a company has accomplished the enormous cultural and paradigm shift that is required to be able to fully get behind something like Steam as an integral part of its corporate philosophy, they've already done 99% of the work. Compared to that actually implementing something like Steam is a piece of cake.
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Aug 30, 2013 09:55
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I started playing NSMB a week ago and I'm surprised at how bad it really was as a Mario game. The controls are terrible, what with all the deceleration and acceleration problems, the visible area isn't very big so things keep popping up for which you might not have time to stop, breaking the flow of the game all the time since you can never just run forward and deal with enemies as you go. The wall jumps feel random and wonky and often land me into a piranha plant. There's very little exploration since the secret coins are often in obvious areas which just require walljumps or some foreknowledge to reach,I miss the little secrets present in SMB3, the way you could hit that rock in the desert world to reach the flute, you had to figure that out first. Here you just buy open such secrets on the world map, making them boring. The giant and small mushrooms are dumb situational gimmicks which usually net you a cheap death anyway. Most of all the controls though. Seriously, just play NSMB for 30 minutes and then play SMB1 and compare the fun. Is Mario Wii U like this too?
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Aug 30, 2013 10:24
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The first NSMB is a pretty average game, but the Wii game is in the same league as the NES games. The Wii U one (and the Luigi DLC) seemed to be around the same level of quality from what I played of it.
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Aug 30, 2013 11:43
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Sir Ilpalazzo posted:The first NSMB is a pretty average game, but the Wii game is in the same league as the NES games. The Wii U one (and the Luigi DLC) seemed to be around the same level of quality from what I played of it. Are the controls more responsive though? Superficially, the Wii U version looks pretty similar to NSMB in youtube, with the exception of the larger play area and more fun looking levels, but still the jumps look a bit "sluggish" (i can't explain it better than that). With NSMB I really miss that old feeling of just running through a stage, taking out goombas left and right with point blank fireballs and chain jumps.
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Aug 30, 2013 12:43
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Shibawanko posted:Are the controls more responsive though? Superficially, the Wii U version looks pretty similar to NSMB in youtube, with the exception of the larger play area and more fun looking levels, but still the jumps look a bit "sluggish" (i can't explain it better than that). With NSMB I really miss that old feeling of just running through a stage, taking out goombas left and right with point blank fireballs and chain jumps. Nope, Mario still drives like a truck. It's really nonsensical and aggravating because they perfected this poo poo decades ago with SMB3 and SMBW. The level design in the Wii and Wii U games is actually quite good. It's just not as fun or responsive as it could have been. Maybe someone will mod in better controls in the future (and get rid of those goddamn wah-wahs while they're at it).
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Aug 30, 2013 12:53
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Almost Smart posted:Nope, Mario still drives like a truck. It's really nonsensical and aggravating because they perfected this poo poo decades ago with SMB3 and SMBW. The level design in the Wii and Wii U games is actually quite good. It's just not as fun or responsive as it could have been. Maybe someone will mod in better controls in the future (and get rid of those goddamn wah-wahs while they're at it). The whalelike acceleration wouldnt be so bad if the other elements in the game (the blocks, the enemies) were proportionally bigger so you have more time to react and build up speed. Hitbox clarity is also a serious problem, with Mario's feet flailing about it's difficult to tell whether you're going to hit an enemy just on the head or will get hit by it - this is why Super Mario 64 had rather large enemies: to make it easier to land a mario who isn't a clear-cut pixel block anymore in a way that still feels predictable.
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Aug 30, 2013 13:04
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The handling in NSMBU is actually perfect, giving you a fun sense of momentum along with pixel-perfect accuracy and a better execution of the spin move for in-air handling and adjustment.
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Aug 30, 2013 14:08
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My view on platformers is that the character being quick or sluggish or having lots of inertia doesn't really matter as long as the stages are designed suitably to match how the character moves. NSMBU's stages are very well-tuned around Mario's inertia and jump height, so I don't see the running speed as an issue.
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Aug 30, 2013 16:09
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Supercar Gautier posted:My view on platformers is that the character being quick or sluggish or having lots of inertia doesn't really matter as long as the stages are designed suitably to match how the character moves. NSMBU's stages are very well-tuned around Mario's inertia and jump height, so I don't see the running speed as an issue. The two go hand-in-hand though. Yes, you can design levels that accomodate sluggish controls, but those levels will have to be more sparse / spread out, and therefore less intense and probably less memorable. Whereas, if the controls are really snappy, then you can design levels with really tightly-packed obstacles and enemies, which are more intense and memorable (there's a reason the tank levels from the end of Mario 3 are still vividly remembered 20 years later). Super Meat Boy rose to superstardom not just because the controls are incredibly tight, but because these tight controls allow for a wide variety of insane level designs. Polo-Rican fucked around with this message at 16:20 on Aug 30, 2013 |
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Aug 30, 2013 16:18
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Am I the only one that thinks, aside from obvious upgrades like buttstomps and wallkicks, that the Mario in the NSMB series is pretty much the same as the old titles? Maybe not necessarily Mario World, but everything before it, surely.
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Aug 30, 2013 16:22
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Wait is anyone saying that the controls on Mario games aren't the tightest poo poo ever? They feel fantastic.
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Aug 30, 2013 16:23
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I'm a huge Mario 3 nerd and I agree with you - I think the physics are mostly the same. The physics appear different, however, because of the way Mario is animated. In the 2d mario games, when you press left, the sprite instantaneously snaps left. When you jump, the sprite instantaneously changes to the jumping sprite. Whereas, in the 3d games, the model actually rotates and transitions from one pose to another over a few frames. This makes it look a little less snappy, even though it's almost exactly as snappy as before. (I'm not trying to complain about the new games, by the way, just trying to explain the technical reason they feel less snappy than the old games)
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Aug 30, 2013 16:25
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Polo-Rican posted:I'm a huge Mario 3 nerd and I agree with you - I think the physics are mostly the same. The physics appear different, however, because of the way Mario is animated. In the 2d mario games, when you press left, the sprite instantaneously snaps left. When you jump, the sprite instantaneously changes to the jumping sprite. Whereas, in the 3d games, the model actually rotates and transitions from one pose to another over a few frames. This makes it look a little less snappy, even though it's almost exactly as snappy as before. Yeah, the NSMB games feel close to Super Mario Bros. 3, which was halfway between SMB1's heavy, momentum-based Mario and SMW's light, agile Mario. I really like the heavy feel of SMB1, since it feels more like controlling a person with actual weight, as well as the requirement to build up speed by running on the ground. SMW Mario is just too light, and there's no sense of satisfaction of reaching full speed and maintaining it, unless you're flying with the cape. It is easier to do precision platforming, but SMB3 does the best of both styles.
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Aug 30, 2013 19:02
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I think claims or assumptions that Metroid is dead seem pretty much baseless. Was Metroid dead after Super Metroid, which is awesome? Seemed like it was dead, until they made some more metroid games. Did people feel like Super Metroid had killed the series? I doubt many people thought that. I am waiting for a classic, 2D metroid. I think it'll be made eventually, and I hope it lives up to my personal expectations. More 1st person metroid games would be great, too. I would welcome another game with elements from Other M, which would hopefully turn out better. Other M's actual game had some decent ideas. Maybe Nintendo can get a collaboration with Grasshopper - call it Metroid is Dead, just for kicks. Anyways, I doubt wii u could be the next virtual boy. Considering the games already released for it, and the announced games for the next year, it's guaranteed a more meaningful existence than the virtual boy.
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Aug 30, 2013 22:42
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The last 2D Metroid was released 9 years ago, just so you know.
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Aug 30, 2013 23:42
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Metroid is dead, long live Metroid.
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Aug 31, 2013 01:10
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I hope the next Metroid game is Metroid's Epic Yarn, where you play as a Metroid, can absorb energy from enemy characters to evolve and gain powerups. You're the equivalent of a rat in a Chozo maze, but you break out and things go to poo poo.
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Aug 31, 2013 01:20
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Jumbled_Johnsons posted:I think claims or assumptions that Metroid is dead seem pretty much baseless. Was Metroid dead after Super Metroid, which is awesome? Seemed like it was dead, until they made some more metroid games. After nearly a decade.
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Aug 31, 2013 02:16
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Jumbled_Johnsons posted:I think claims or assumptions that Metroid is dead seem pretty much baseless. Was Metroid dead after Super Metroid, which is awesome? Seemed like it was dead, until they made some more metroid games. Thing is, Metroid games had been very well received up until Other M. Somehow I don't think Nintendo is the kind of company that would make a game exclusively for their US customers, hell they tried to make Other M to appeal to the Japanese and it blew up in their face.
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Aug 31, 2013 02:29
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There's absolutely no reason to believe that Nintendo won't make another Metroid game at some nebulous point in the future. I mean, Kid Icarus was dead for 21 years before they decided to restart that poo poo. Personally I would've picked Star Tropics. Hire me Nintendo.
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Aug 31, 2013 02:37
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Cowcaster posted:There's absolutely no reason to believe that Nintendo won't make another Metroid game at some nebulous point in the future. I mean, Kid Icarus was dead for 21 years before they decided to restart that poo poo. 
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Aug 31, 2013 02:39
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It was an entire console generation between Super and Prime/Fusion. It might be for the best for it to get a rest.
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Aug 31, 2013 03:10
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So, if they do ever make another Metroid, they're going to retcon Other M, right, guys? 
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Aug 31, 2013 04:42
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Snix posted:So, if they do ever make another Metroid, they're going to retcon Other M, right, guys? No doubt about it.
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Aug 31, 2013 04:43
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Sakurai's using the Other M Samus design and a stage from Other M so I doubt it. For further evidence, the Link and Animal Crossing villager he's using aren't based of their current games.
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Aug 31, 2013 05:05
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Snix posted:So, if they do ever make another Metroid, they're going to retcon Other M, right, guys? Nintendo in Japan basically disowned the Prime games and stopped acknowledging they exist a long time ago during the initial announcement leading up to Other M. The only thing left being the old Japanese sites for Prime 1 and later 2. Like if you looked at any "THE HISTORY OF METROID" or "THE NEW METROID GAME" advertising or marketing in Japan the Prime games are just not there even in the official time line they would display. Shame as I've never seen a reboot/drastic change in gameplay title so flawlessly own what a game series is about better than Metroid Prime. I dearly, truly love every game in the Metroid series except Other M (I even love Metroid Prime Pinball and Hunters), but when I think "Metroid" I immediately think "Super Metroid and Metroid Prime." Also I'm talking about Metroid Prime so I have to post this, please kill me. Neo Rasa fucked around with this message at 05:13 on Aug 31, 2013 |
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Aug 31, 2013 05:10
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Alteisen posted:Sakurai's using the Other M Samus design and a stage from Other M so I doubt it. In general Smash seems to focus on more what came before it. Melee hit more on 64 games that came out after the original, with more recent stuff like Pikmin and Luigi's Mansion appearing in trophies, rather than having stages and elements in the game proper. Similairly, Brawl was very GCN focused, Mario Sunshine, Luigi's Mansion and Pikmin now appearing as characters and stages, while Mii's and other "Wii essentials" are nowhere to be seen. Depending on when he started, Twilight Princess was still probably the "Wii" Zelda, with Skyloft stage coming later, and the Villager and AC stage take their design from City Folk.
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Aug 31, 2013 06:44
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Neo Rasa posted:Nintendo in Japan basically disowned the Prime games and stopped acknowledging they exist a long time ago during the initial announcement leading up to Other M. The only thing left being the old Japanese sites for Prime 1 and later 2. Like if you looked at any "THE HISTORY OF METROID" or "THE NEW METROID GAME" advertising or marketing in Japan the Prime games are just not there even in the official time line they would display. Shame as I've never seen a reboot/drastic change in gameplay title so flawlessly own what a game series is about better than Metroid Prime. I dearly, truly love every game in the Metroid series except Other M (I even love Metroid Prime Pinball and Hunters), but when I think "Metroid" I immediately think "Super Metroid and Metroid Prime." Supposedly we got a gimped Prime 3 because during its development Sakurai agreed to make Other M so they rushed it out the door. Don't know if its true though.
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Aug 31, 2013 06:47
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Alteisen posted:Supposedly we got a gimped Prime 3 because during its development Sakurai agreed to make Other M so they rushed it out the door. I remember reading that Retro Studios planned an open world-y game where Samus would travel from planet to planet hunting down targets, but Nintendo was appalled at the idea and shot it down because they have absolutely no clue what "bounty hunter" means.
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Aug 31, 2013 07:10
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Pigbuster posted:I remember reading that Retro Studios planned an open world-y game where Samus would travel from planet to planet hunting down targets, but Nintendo was appalled at the idea and shot it down because they have absolutely no clue what "bounty hunter" means. They couldn't find the proper word for it when it came to translation. Samus is supposed to be someone who shows up and defeats evil and Nintendo and Sakamoto were extremely against the idea of her getting PAID to kill bad guys.
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Aug 31, 2013 07:18
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I remember when the 3DS first came out and everyone in that thread was talking about how bad it was, how little it was selling, and the death of Nintendo all that crap. I think the WiiU is just having a (really) slow start and am confident that it will start selling decently when the console has some more first party games.
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Aug 31, 2013 07:21
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littleorv posted:I remember when the 3DS first came out and everyone in that thread was talking about how bad it was, how little it was selling, and the death of Nintendo all that crap. I think the WiiU is just having a (really) slow start and am confident that it will start selling decently when the console has some more first party games. There's a difference. There's no real competition for handhelds. While the Wii U is now going to go up against two next generation consoles that completely outclass it, both of which have complete third party backing while most third parties have already seemingly abandoned the Wii U. The casual gamer isn't buying a Wii U like they did a Wii for reasons gone into detail in the thread. And it seems people who wanted it for first party games likely have it already, so there won't be much of an increase from that.
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Aug 31, 2013 07:28
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Codependent Poster posted:There's a difference. There's no real competition for handhelds. I would disagree here. The Vita is a better system by far; it just so happens that Sony has no idea what they are doing with it, much like Nintendo's initial fumbling of the 3DS and the continuing Wii U fiasco. The 3DS is a great example of how to un-gently caress yourself. The Wii U is in a worse spot than the 3DS was, sure, but I don't think it's at all unsalvageable, even if it's unlikely that it will ever sell the numbers that its competitors will.
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Aug 31, 2013 07:41
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Alteisen posted:Supposedly we got a gimped Prime 3 because during its development Sakurai agreed to make Other M so they rushed it out the door. It definitely wasn't forced out the door. It was supposed to be a launch title but they delayed it until they could "make something as good as Twilight Princess", whatever that means.
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