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I've seen plenty of fantastic comic book films in the past 10 years. I'm pretty sure it can be done, and I don't think it would require a gargantuan budget.Ghosthotel posted:Dude pissed himself and looked like he was a whimpering mess afterwards. Torture is still torture. NoneSuch posted:You've seemed to have decided this is a generic action flick and no one is going to convince you otherwise, so where is the discussion ever going to go? ...of SCIENCE! posted:You guys are right, there is no satire or social commentary in Dredd shooting white phosphorous at civilians. They just chose the effect because it looked totally sick. And I do wish the Fatties had appeared. Baron Bifford fucked around with this message at 22:26 on Aug 30, 2013 |
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Aug 30, 2013 22:23
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Baron Bifford posted:Well, psychic interrogation is a fictional plot device which is only as nasty as the author wants it to be, so I'm just going to take what I saw in the movie at face value. Yes, I saw Kay scream and piss his pants, so it was certainly an unpleasant affair, but he soon recovered enough to take Anderson prisoner. It did not leave him a broken man, so it's certainly a few degrees less than what Dredd would have dished out. What the gently caress? Just because it ended up being less than what Dredd would have dished out doesn't somehow make it the "nicer" alternative or whatever it is you're getting at here. I'm trying to to make the mental leap required where mentally torturing someone until they piss themselves in fear is somehow not as bad as beating someone up for that information and I really can't. quote:It's was an AoE attack on a bunch of armed goons that Dredd had cleverly tricked into clustering together. It was already shown that being part of MaMa's gang was pretty much the only real gainful employment you could have in peach trees. That lingering shot of dredd just staring at the flames really says all you need to know about that scene. It's like you just blanked out anytime the movie made it really apparent that Dredd isn't a good person and that the whole system is hosed.
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Aug 30, 2013 22:36
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Nilbop posted:Checked it out last night, was very dissapointed. Felt like it could have been any action movie with no need for Dredd to be in it. MegaCity One looked, I dunno, just like a bigger LA with big stupid tower blocks. And there was no satire. No dark humour. And Gorgo Lannister was loving dreadful. Part of what works with Dredd is the comedy and social commentary feel seamless with the story. You are supposed to laugh when Dredd asks "Are you Ready? You don't look ready" and later on, "Are you Ready. You look ready". Most people will find Urban's snarling deadpan funny there, but we are meant to be aware Anderson looks like a brutalized, bloodthirsty maniac the second time, especially compared to her earlier self. There are a few missteps in my opinion, most notable the hamfisted bit with the girlfriend when they are laying low in her apartment and Anderson realizes they ran into him earlier. The rest of the movie is much more subtle, and the fact that you can watch it as a straightforward action romp is a credit to the film.
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Aug 30, 2013 22:46
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Ghosthotel posted:It was already shown that being part of MaMa's gang was pretty much the only real gainful employment you could have in peach trees. Nilbop posted:Karl Urban did the best he could though. I was really pleased that he had the stones not to remove the helmet at all.
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Aug 30, 2013 22:52
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Baron Bifford posted:That may true but it's not really relevant to that scene. Dredd killed them because they were trying to kill him. How is it not relevant? The reason they're out there gunning for Dredd in the first place is because the system is completely hosed and being henchmen for MaMa is better employment than they're going to find just about anywhere. The whole point of that scene with the boyfriend that Anderson kills is to show you that any number of the people working for MaMa could be doing it because they have no other way to make a living.
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Aug 30, 2013 23:00
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Baron Bifford posted:And I do wish the Fatties had appeared. They did. There's a huge dead guy in the Peach Trees lobby with his beliwheel nearby. There is also more humour in the movie than people think, not least the bit where Anderson says she doesn't wear her helmet because it disrupts her psychic abilities and Dredd replies "I'd have thought a bullet would disrupt them more".
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Aug 30, 2013 23:07
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They're gunning for Dredd because Mama told them to. They're gunning for Dredd because they didn't want Kay to snitch on them. Yeah, they're trying to protect their business, but they're using violence. I have problems in life too, but if I pull a gun on a cop they aren't going to matter. Unemployment doesn't give you a right to go shooting people, nor does it oblige a law enforcement official to lay down his arms and let himself be slaughtered.
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Aug 30, 2013 23:09
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Baron Bifford posted:That may true but it's not really relevant to that scene. Dredd killed them because they were trying to kill him. And yet that's irrelevant to the bigger picture. It's a system that perpetuates the same violence it condemns while neglecting the systematic causes of these problems. Judges aren't even a band aid. They cannot even make a dent in the problems of crime and misery responding to 6% of all major crimes, their existence is a symbol of force and control to reinforce the status quo with intimidation, execution, and "black and white" rationalization of the world around them. The point isn't Dredd is bad for killing people who are trying to kill him, it's that Dredd and the judges are another tool enabling society to ignore the real problems. Basically justice is blind... just not the way that phrase is suppose to mean. And psychic torture may be a fictional plot device, but the satire is about the very real psychological torture governments have allowed themselves to engage in under the impression it's "less than". Anderson is the fallacy of accepting waterboarding because at least we're not sticking bamboo shoots in their fingernails.
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Aug 30, 2013 23:17
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massive spider posted:Imagine if a new Tank Girl movie or something came out and it was a actually good. Tank Girl IS an actual good movie, you monster.
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Aug 30, 2013 23:22
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Baron Bifford posted:And I do wish the Fatties had appeared. This right here, more than anything else you've said this entire thread, tells me that you didn't pay a lick of attention to this movie. That, or you need every bit of media spoonfed to you. I'm not sure what's worse. Like Jedit said, there was one front and center during the scene where DREDD chases the escaped druggie into the mall. There he is, fat as can be, with his belliwheel crashed beside him. It wasn't made a huge deal of in the movie because those people are just part of the setting, but not a part of the setting that has any bearing on the story. Much like many things the director put in, like the Judge Child poster. What do you want, a little window to pop up every time there's some satire or some subtle nod to the source material with a guy inside that shouts LOOK! LOOK!? Zohn posted:Tank Girl IS an actual good movie, you monster. Also, this guy has the correct opinion on Tank Girl.
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Aug 30, 2013 23:31
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NoneSuch posted:Problem I'm seeing is that I don't think any theatrical version of Dredd could fit in with what you want Baron because it be sorta impossible to do because comics don't translate well to the cinema. You've seemed to have decided this is a generic action flick and no one is going to convince you otherwise, so where is the discussion ever going to go? He does this consistently in basically every media thread I see him in and I can't tell if he's a troll or just a stupendous idiot. CroatianAlzheimers posted:Also, this guy has the correct opinion on Tank Girl. I think this is one of those cases where people who've read the comic are disappointed by the adaptation. OXBALLS DOT COM fucked around with this message at 00:03 on Aug 31, 2013 |
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Aug 30, 2013 23:34
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EvilTobaccoExec posted:The point isn't Dredd is bad for killing people who are trying to kill him...
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Aug 30, 2013 23:42
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Cream_Filling posted:I think this is one of those cases where people who've read the comic are disappointed by the adaptation. I'd read a lot of the TG comics by the time the movie came out, and I thought it was decent. Strangely enough, I haven't read any 2000AD comics, so all I ever knew about Judge Dread was from posters around the comic shop, and the Stallone adaptation. I find DREDD to be the superior product.
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Aug 31, 2013 01:13
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Baron Bifford posted:Thank you for this, at least. I can't disagree with your other points. We definitely root for him, although I don't necessarily mean to imply he's good either. Dredd himself is probably a blank slate (very much Inspector Javert) as this faceless avatar of Megacity One's "justice". He does have this tinge of sadism (which I presume is what Anderson detected when they first met), but I don't know if that's even a personal attribute as much as it is a manifestation of a quality inherent in entire Judge system. Giving the opening criminal the option of death or horrifically violent death, taking over the PA, and drugging MaMa before tossing her all reinforce the fear, intimidation and violence the Judge system thrives on to operate. The parallels to how the MaMa clan operates questions the validity of a system devoted to violence and coercion in order to combat the wrongness of violence and coercion. Anderson is probably the more interesting subject for discussion when it comes to morality. While Dredd is a neutral avatar, Anderson clearly has a good heart and wants to do what she believes is right. But big picture, the concept she represents is possibly more harmful (and scarier) to MegaCity's future than what Dredd already stands for. Everyone has committed a crime (big or small, knowingly or ignorant) in their lives. Her psychic abilities (although used with good purpose to identify a murderer here) present the death of privacy and give cause to put anyone away for past transgressions; its a universal warrant on everyone, serviceable at a judge's discretion. We see her use them again somewhat righteously with the computer technician; her abilities enable her to perceive direct coercion, yet ironically being able to make this distinction probably further distances her from the revelation that on some level everyone they've gunned down is a victim of economic coercion, which is what really needs to be addressed instead. So with her mental torture and "softer" approach to justice, she makes an objectionable system more digestible for the populace by being "less than" the alternative. Her presence enables a rationalization that weakens objections despite retaining the same the fundamental problems of the old order ensuring the systematic problems are still overlooked.
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Aug 31, 2013 01:50
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For that criminal in the opening sequence, Dredd was offering the guy a commuted death sentence in exchange for a hostage's life. The criminal refused, so Dredd took a gamble and shot the guy in the head to save the hostage (who knows what would have happened to her had he let the criminal walk away with her). It was a gambit that I think modern cops are not allowed to take. The use of a hotshot round was flashy. But I didn't see it as a case of perverse justice.
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Aug 31, 2013 07:17
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Nilbop posted:...corpse zamboni?
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Aug 31, 2013 07:54
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Baron Bifford posted:For that criminal in the opening sequence, Dredd was offering the guy a commuted death sentence in exchange for a hostage's life. The criminal refused, so Dredd took a gamble and shot the guy in the head to save the hostage (who knows what would have happened to her had he let the criminal walk away with her). It was a gambit that I think modern cops are not allowed to take. The use of a hotshot round was flashy. But I didn't see it as a case of perverse justice. I guess it was life in the isocubes, my memory was a little fuzzy there. Although it was just the hotshot I was referring to as suggestive of the sadistic aspect of the system. Dredd doesn't need to use such a brutal and horrific tool here when a normal squeeze of the trigger would have gotten the job done all the same (and probably an easier shot with less risk to the hostage). He specifically selects the hotshot for two purposes. One, it serves as an added punishment by excruciatingly painful death (opposed to just death) for the criminal having rejected his offer. Two, it serves as intimidation, reinforcing control and dominance by the Ministry of Justice. I don't think either of these functions are written into the law Dredd follows so stringently, but they're somewhat sadistic de-facto aspects of propagating the Judge system he understands. Whether there's a hundred witnesses, that one hostage, or even none, his added brutality sends a clear message: do not gently caress with the law. Here's the scene for reference (okay not really reference, I just felt like posting it) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzIoneyedBk I was hoping it had the Zamboni in it, but no luck.
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Aug 31, 2013 08:17
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EvilTobaccoExec posted:He specifically selects the hotshot for two purposes. One, it serves as an added punishment by excruciatingly painful death (opposed to just death) for the criminal having rejected his offer. Two, it serves as intimidation, reinforcing control and dominance by the Ministry of Justice. Is it theoretically possible that a traditional headshot could have harmed the hostage by sending fragments of the guy's skull flying into her head at high speed?
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Aug 31, 2013 08:39
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Yeah, I guess the hotshot was a showy and sadistic display. But you can't say the same about the incendiary grenade he uses later, that's just war.BreakAtmo posted:Is it theoretically possible that a traditional headshot could have harmed the hostage by sending fragments of the guy's skull flying into her head at high speed? EvilTobaccoExec posted:I don't think either of these functions are written into the law Dredd follows so stringently, but they're somewhat sadistic de-facto aspects of propagating the Judge system he understands. Whether there's a hundred witnesses, that one hostage, or even none, his added brutality sends a clear message: do not gently caress with the law. Baron Bifford fucked around with this message at 11:41 on Aug 31, 2013 |
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Aug 31, 2013 08:42
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BreakAtmo posted:Is it theoretically possible that a traditional headshot could have harmed the hostage by sending fragments of the guy's skull flying into her head at high speed?
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Aug 31, 2013 14:38
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Ugly In The Morning posted:Towards the beginning of the movie when he's chasing the guy through the plaza? There's a scene with a street sweeper towing a bunch of corpses for recycling while mopping the floor. I got a good laugh out of the PA system saying "the food court will be closed for 30 minutes, sorry for the inconvience" while that happened. This was my favorite joke in the whole film.
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Aug 31, 2013 14:42
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etalian posted:This was my favorite joke in the whole film. I think the part I laughed the most was right after Mama locks them in and finishes her little speech, and the first gang is closing in on them, Dredd reminds Anderson that this is her assessment and makes her make the call. Granted I don't know an awful lot about comic-Dredd, but that feels like such a character defining moment for him, and I thought he carried it throughout the movie really well. Cut off from HQ, locked in, outnumbered - the totally dire situation so many movies wind up with - and it's still business as usual for him. I think that was the exact moment the film really won me over.
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Aug 31, 2013 15:10
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Baron Bifford posted:For me, the opening sequence does not so much display Dredd's sadism as it does his reckless aggression. I've heard that some police in England are discouraged from getting into high-speed chases at all because of the risks. Dredd not only chases the crooks, he opens fire on them on a busy street. When the perp takes a hostage, Dredd decides to risk the hostage's life rather than let the crook walk out the building. He didn't put much effort into his hostage negotation. While he does have some concern for public safety, his message to criminals is "You are not getting away no matter what you do." Yeah, I got a similar impression from that chase. Afterwards I thought of the opening scene to The Other Guys where The Rock and Samuel L Jackson do the same city-destroying high-speed shoot-out over a pound of pot. Except it was played straight in Dredd, well... kind of. Straight execution, similar punchline/satire.
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Aug 31, 2013 15:12
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meatsaw posted:Cut off from HQ, locked in, outnumbered - the totally dire situation so many movies wind up with - and it's still business as usual for him. I think that was the exact moment the film really won me over. For John McClane, it was an impossible situation for him to overcome. For Judge Dredd, it's just Tuesday. I mean, you get that total vibe at the end of the film, as he walked out of Peachtrees, that he was just going to mount his Lawgiver, call Control, and proceed to the next crime.
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Aug 31, 2013 16:01
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Baron Bifford posted:But you can't say the same about the incendiary grenade he uses later, that's just war. That's the point, isn't it? The society is broken down to the point where the powers that be fight a war against poor people. No mercy.
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Aug 31, 2013 16:11
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Davros1 posted:For John McClane, it was an impossible situation for him to overcome. Ultimate that is what I believe makes the movie work so well. This wasn't "Judge Dredd has to save the world, blah blah bah". It was just another day patrolling the streets of Megacity One for Judge Dredd.
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Aug 31, 2013 16:17
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Davros1 posted:For John McClane, it was an impossible situation for him to overcome. You mean mount his lawmaster. The lawgiver is the gun, not the motorcycle.  But yeah I loved that. Got the impression that Dredd wasn't even going to get his gunshot wound checked out properly until his shift was over. And you seem him looking approvingly on as Anderson also refuses medical attention.
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Aug 31, 2013 16:31
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marktheando posted:But yeah I loved that. Got the impression that Dredd wasn't even going to get his gunshot wound checked out properly until his shift was over. And you seem him looking approvingly on as Anderson also refuses medical attention. Those little touches really made it for me.
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Aug 31, 2013 16:45
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BexGu posted:Ultimate that is what I believe makes the movie work so well. This wasn't "Judge Dredd has to save the world, blah blah bah". It was just another day patrolling the streets of Megacity One for Judge Dredd. Which comments on our worship of the action hero, and brings it closer to its real-life analogue. This meritocratic few-versus-many narrative we love is just an abstraction of the real-life situations in which a few government tools use superb training and equipment and birth privilege to knock the poo poo out of a bunch of desperate poors. And it happens all the time. It's not world-saving, it's just one more futile ordeal of maintaining a totally hosed system.
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Aug 31, 2013 16:48
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Hob_Gadling posted:That's the point, isn't it? The society is broken down to the point where the powers that be fight a war against Yeah, MC1 has problems when the gangs are big and heavily armed to the point that they will fight lawmen. It's like Colombia. But they're still the bad guys. BexGu posted:Ultimate that is what I believe makes the movie work so well. This wasn't "Judge Dredd has to save the world, blah blah bah". It was just another day patrolling the streets of Megacity One for Judge Dredd. Baron Bifford fucked around with this message at 18:03 on Aug 31, 2013 |
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Aug 31, 2013 17:24
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Baron Bifford posted:FTFY They posture like bad guys but you've got the guy Anderson shoots that has a wife and kid, and you start to wonder what it would take to survive in this city. Again I don't know much about the Dredd universe, but if the Judges are just responding to only 6% of the crimes (and only the worst ones), I imagined the gangs were mostly armed to fight each other, and didn't even expect the police to arrive. It almost makes MC1 look like living in a prison, where you could end up in a gang for your own protection. Obviously you've got bad people, like Mama - but even her backstory makes her into an abused prostitute who finally stands up for herself (albeit brutally). She just happens to get the wrong Judge on her case. She's on top of the heap until that point. RadioDog fucked around with this message at 18:11 on Aug 31, 2013 |
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Aug 31, 2013 18:06
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meatsaw posted:They posture like bad guys but you've got the guy Anderson shoots that has a wife and kid, and you start to wonder what it would take to survive in this city. meatsaw posted:if the Judges are just responding to only 6% of the crimes (and only the worst ones) Baron Bifford fucked around with this message at 18:26 on Aug 31, 2013 |
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Aug 31, 2013 18:18
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Baron Bifford posted:Some of those gangsters may be psychopaths, others may be folk who just have no other option, but either way they don't give Dredd much of a choice in how to act. Dredd wanted to walk out of that building but they chose a fight to the death. What was their other option here, exactly, that they could have chosen? Been killed by Mama instead?
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Aug 31, 2013 19:40
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I don't know, but you can't blame Dredd for defending himself.
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Aug 31, 2013 19:54
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Baron Bifford posted:I don't know, but you can't blame Dredd for defending himself. Congratulations on continuing to willfully miss the point entirely.
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Aug 31, 2013 20:04
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Tripwyre posted:Congratulations on continuing to willfully miss the point entirely. This. This is why no one wanted to discuss this with you earlier, Baron. You've made your mind up about your feelings on this movie and no matter what anyone says you're always going to think what you think. We are doing nothing but talking in circles here.
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Aug 31, 2013 20:10
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Ok, so... you see the events in this movie as just another episode in a broader war between the authorities and the lower classes. Who started the fight is immaterial; Dredd was invading MaMa's sovereignty. If Canada invaded the US to arrest one guy, and America responds with war, the blame for all the death will lie with Canada even though Canada was ready to leave and didn't want an escalation. Is this analogy correct?
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Aug 31, 2013 20:35
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Baron Bifford posted:Ok, so... you see the events in this movie as just another episode in a broader war between the authorities and the lower classes. Who started the fight is immaterial; Dredd was invading MaMa's sovereignty. If Canada invaded the US to arrest one guy, and America responds with war, the blame for all the death will lie with Canada even though Canada was ready to leave and didn't want an escalation. Is this analogy correct? Did you just compare police officers responding to multiple homicides within their jurisdiction to the US invading Canada?  What kind of drugs/medications are you on?
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Aug 31, 2013 20:53
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TheJoker138 posted:This. This is why no one wanted to discuss this with you earlier, Baron. You've made your mind up about your feelings on this movie and no matter what anyone says you're always going to think what you think. We are doing nothing but talking in circles here. Also he's not very bright and when he can't fit a nuanced or complex concept into his head, he interprets this as a conflict and tries to disagree with you. Take, for example, his current obsession with who gets "blamed" for all of society's ills. Because that's totally how the real world works - you have good guys and bad guys, and how dare you imply that the police could ever be the bad guys while doing good things like killing bad guys.
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Aug 31, 2013 20:55
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meatsaw posted:They posture like bad guys but you've got the guy Anderson shoots that has a wife and kid, and you start to wonder what it would take to survive in this city. Again I don't know much about the Dredd universe, but if the Judges are just responding to only 6% of the crimes (and only the worst ones), I imagined the gangs were mostly armed to fight each other, and didn't even expect the police to arrive. It almost makes MC1 look like living in a prison, where you could end up in a gang for your own protection. And this is pretty much spelled out when Dredd takes on Judges Lex and Alvarez in the slo-mo manufacturing facility.
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Aug 31, 2013 21:09
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