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To me it's like Seven Samurai. The outlaws are bad guys and the lawmen are doing a good thing in the short term but the situation only exists because this society has set up the conditions for a perpetual war. We want Dredd and Anderson to win like we wanted the samurai to, but the larger problems are apparent.
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Aug 31, 2013 21:16
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Cream_Filling posted:Also he's not very bright and when he can't fit a nuanced or complex concept into his head, he interprets this as a conflict and tries to disagree with you. Take, for example, his current obsession with who gets "blamed" for all of society's ills. Because that's totally how the real world works - you have good guys and bad guys, and how dare you imply that the police could ever be the bad guys while doing good things like killing bad guys.
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Aug 31, 2013 21:20
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Baron Bifford posted:My focus was strictly on the events of the film. I ignored the broader picture because there was too little information. I was debating the morality and necessity of specific actions Dredd took. Clearly your focus was not on the events of the film at all, considering the fact that the movie provided more than ample information.
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Aug 31, 2013 21:27
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Cream_Filling posted:how dare you imply that the police could ever be the bad guys while doing good things like killing bad guys.
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Aug 31, 2013 21:53
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Baron Bifford posted:My focus was strictly on the events of the film. I ignored the broader picture because there was too little information. I was debating the morality and necessity of specific actions Dredd took. Are you sure you didn't just ignore entire parts of the movie because that's what it's sounding like.
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Aug 31, 2013 21:58
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Baron Bifford posted:My focus was strictly on the events of the film. I ignored the broader picture because there was too little information. I was debating the morality and necessity of specific actions Dredd took. You can't do that, though, without looking at the world the film sets up and contextualizing those specific actions.
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Aug 31, 2013 23:16
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Maxwell Lord posted:To me it's like Seven Samurai. The outlaws are bad guys and the lawmen are doing a good thing in the short term but the situation only exists because this society has set up the conditions for a perpetual war. We want Dredd and Anderson to win like we wanted the samurai to, but the larger problems are apparent. I think even that is being too generous. Dredd (or rather, the Judge system) and Ma-Ma are morally interchangeable. There's literally no ethical difference in what they do. They impose order through violence and terror, positioning themselves as a necessary evil because the alternative is anarchy -- not out of good will, but because doing so maintains their power. The point of Peach Trees going on lockdown is that it temporarily reverses their roles -- suddenly, Ma-Ma is the "legitimate" authority in her own microcosm, and Dredd and Anderson are the criminals who are disrupting daily life. The only real distinction between the two of them is that, in the long run, the Judges are a much bigger and more powerful gang.
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Sep 1, 2013 00:18
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Finally saw this and really loved it. Watched it twice, actually. I love the ending because I just kept thinking how much I wanted to see Ma Ma die and also how futile killing her is in a world like that.
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Sep 1, 2013 00:21
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:I think even that is being too generous. I've been watching a lot of Adam Curtis docu's, like The Trap, which explains exactly this.
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Sep 1, 2013 01:14
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Maxwell Lord posted:To me it's like Seven Samurai. The outlaws are bad guys and the lawmen are doing a good thing in the short term but the situation only exists because this society has set up the conditions for a perpetual war. We want Dredd and Anderson to win like we wanted the samurai to, but the larger problems are apparent. It's like Seven Samurai if the villagers were the bandits.
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Sep 1, 2013 01:19
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Beyond sane knolls posted:It's like Seven Samurai if the villagers were the bandits. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nha8ICFYMzs
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Sep 1, 2013 02:50
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:The only real distinction between the two of them is that, in the long run, the Judges are a much bigger and more powerful gang. I like that analysis, especially since one of the minor gangs that Ma-Ma took over when she came to Peach Trees was some kind of mock Judges gang. Also, here are some Judges on Peachtree Rd. 
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Sep 1, 2013 03:05
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echronorian posted:Finally saw this and really loved it. Watched it twice, actually. I love the ending because I just kept thinking how much I wanted to see Ma Ma die and also how futile killing her is in a world like that. It's also a really great effects shot and a neat way to recount all the previous action set pieces from the film showing off the aftermath of things such as the minigun massacre floor.
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Sep 1, 2013 03:08
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AgentHaiTo posted:I like that analysis, especially since one of the minor gangs that Ma-Ma took over when she came to Peach Trees was some kind of mock Judges gang. Huh, I didn't know they let fatties become Judges.
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Sep 1, 2013 03:13
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Gizmodo posts article about how Dredd is on Netflix and you should watch it; calls it "Dredd: So Dumb, So Fun" There's nothing dumb about Dredd. This is just further proof that Gizmodo loving sucks 
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Sep 1, 2013 03:14
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:I think even that is being too generous. Baron Bifford fucked around with this message at 08:29 on Sep 1, 2013 |
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Sep 1, 2013 08:22
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meatsaw posted:They posture like bad guys but you've got the guy Anderson shoots that has a wife and kid, and you start to wonder what it would take to survive in this city. Again I don't know much about the Dredd universe, but if the Judges are just responding to only 6% of the crimes (and only the worst ones), I imagined the gangs were mostly armed to fight each other, and didn't even expect the police to arrive. It almost makes MC1 look like living in a prison, where you could end up in a gang for your own protection. It's like Elysium from the point of view of the Civil Cooperation Bureau robots.
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Sep 1, 2013 08:38
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Baron Bifford posted:Dredd wasn't the one who cut loose with the miniguns, killing lots of innocents in the crossfire. He shows more care for those little people than Ma-Ma. 1) Dredd didn't have a minigun. 2) He returned fire with white phosphorus. Do you really need to be told the potential collateral damage from setting fire to a building?
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Sep 1, 2013 08:42
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Rageaholic Monkey posted:Gizmodo posts article about how Dredd is on Netflix and you should watch it; calls it "Dredd: So Dumb, So Fun" He like's it because it's an action movie that "isn't totally loving stupid" and titles his article in a way that focuses on how stupid it is  If anything Dredd was really smart, focused and self aware without being too campy. Those would be my adjectives to describe it. Also stylish.
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Sep 1, 2013 08:50
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The movie does a lot to explore the morality of judge dredd, but I don't think we're really meant to make judgements on the ethics of what anderson and dredd are doing, because judges in megacity one are subject to a completely different moral standard than police officers and judges in our world. It's obvious from the first time that Mama takes over the PA system that dredd and anderson are in an extremely dangerous situation (despite his business as usual attitude, dredd even tells anderson that if she gets taken, she might not want to get taken alive.) At this point, i think any cop, or any person for that matter, would use the exact same tactics that dredd and anderson used in order to survive the ordeal at peach trees. The movie does a good job of exploring themes of justice and fairness in the world of megacity one. All throughout the movie, Dredd is trying to offer deals to people who have broken the law. They're bad deals, like death or life in the iso cubes, but they make it clear that dredd doesn't take any joy in performing executions, and would rather send offenders to prison for a standard sentence than execute them. Dredd doesn't even want to arrest someone who is down on their luck, like the homeless man sitting in the blast door of Peach Trees. He passes anderson on her evaluation even though she allows the red haired kid that operates the building to "escape." Basically what i'm trying to get across here is, although dredd seems to believe in the law and in the judge system, he's not an absolutist in this respect. He often makes good moral choices that conflict with an extremely strict definition of the law, or with his rights to enforce the law as a judge. Now, i'm not saying dredd is a compassionate moral paragon. Although he operates within the law, dredd kills like 30 people over the course of the movie and endangers the lives of many innocent people in doing this, but i think this is the most compelling thing about dredd as a character. He's perfectly comfortable making those types of choices and dealing with the consequences of them, because he's a product of the world of megacity one. Because of this, the more time we spend with dredd, the better we understand the setting of the film and the choices and motivations of the other characters in the story. Deep down dredd seems to want to help people, and he tries to do this by enforcing the law, and that's the philosophical conflict of the entire movie. Can you really have justice in such a brutal world? If the answer is no, should you still try? How much room is there for compassion when you're up against brutal killers like Mama? I really thought this movie was a work of genius because of how organically these questions came up in, what seems on the surface, a very simple sci-fi action movie.
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Sep 1, 2013 16:54
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I think Dredd in this film isn't portrayed as being quite AS brutal as he sometimes is in the comics- Urban gives him a bit of a human edge. Which is why I use the Seven Samurai comparison- we like the samurai even though, if you pay attention to the story, what's happening is basically their fault.
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Sep 1, 2013 16:59
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I could never quite tell if Dredd actually felt any compassion for that homeless guy, or if he knew that where he was sitting was going to get him smushed by a big metal door.
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Sep 1, 2013 17:04
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DeathChicken posted:I could never quite tell if Dredd actually felt any compassion for that homeless guy, or if he knew that where he was sitting was going to get him smushed by a big metal door. How could he have possibly predicted that? But I don't think Dredd had any compassion for him- remember Dredd points out the homeless guy for Anderson to judge.
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Sep 1, 2013 17:06
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marktheando posted:How could he have possibly predicted that? But I don't think Dredd had any compassion for him- remember Dredd points out the homeless guy for Anderson to judge. They could have arrested him and sent him to the cubes right there. He clearly says, don't be here when we get back. Dredd meant for him to leave.
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Sep 1, 2013 17:18
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Christmas Miracle posted:They could have arrested him and sent him to the cubes right there. He clearly says, don't be here when we get back. Dredd meant for him to leave. Yeah, but not because he knew that Peach Trees was going into lockdown somehow, and wanted to spare his life. It was a combination of Dredd's occasional light hand in his dispensation of justice, and also because their original call (the murders) took priority. I think Anderson even says a line to that effect. One thing I think people forget is that, for the most part, Anderson is in charge of their unit; she's under evaluation, so she has to make the calls. It's really only after Dredd and Anderson get split up that Dredd truly goes off on his own, and he falls right back into subordinate mode after Anderson rescues him.
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Sep 1, 2013 17:22
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I have a feeling Dredd enforces OSHA guidelines.
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Sep 1, 2013 17:30
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Hewlett posted:Yeah, but not because he knew that Peach Trees was going into lockdown somehow, and wanted to spare his life. It was a combination of Dredd's occasional light hand in his dispensation of justice, and also because their original call (the murders) took priority. I think Anderson even says a line to that effect. One thing I think people forget is that, for the most part, Anderson is in charge of their unit; she's under evaluation, so she has to make the calls. It's really only after Dredd and Anderson get split up that Dredd truly goes off on his own, and he falls right back into subordinate mode after Anderson rescues him. yeah, i wasn't saying that dredd was trying to save him from the blast door. I'm saying that dredd noticing that someone is breaking the law, then offering to let them go is compassionate. In other words, dredd wants to enforce the law because he thinks it will help megacity one, but he's willing to refrain from enforcing the law if he doesn't think it will really help. My guess about why he approached the guy in the first place instead of ignoring him is because he's loitering and violating safety regulations by sitting in the door, not because he thinks the door will close soon.
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Sep 1, 2013 17:30
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Christmas Miracle posted:yeah, i wasn't saying that dredd was trying to save him from the blast door. I'm saying that dredd noticing that someone is breaking the law, then offering to let them go is compassionate. In other words, dredd wants to enforce the law because he thinks it will help megacity one, but he's willing to refrain from enforcing the law if he doesn't think it will really help. My guess about why he approached the guy in the first place instead of ignoring him is because he's loitering and violating safety regulations by sitting in the door, not because he thinks the door will close soon. Yeah, we never really see Dredd overtly punish someone for non-violent crimes; he's mostly fighting the violent thugs in the beginning, only waiting to use deadly force until after they run over the "innocent," and then there's all the stuff with Ma-Ma's thugs in Peach Trees.
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Sep 1, 2013 17:33
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Christmas Miracle posted:It's obvious from the first time that Mama takes over the PA system that dredd and anderson are in an extremely dangerous situation (despite his business as usual attitude, dredd even tells anderson that if she gets taken, she might not want to get taken alive.) At this point, i think any cop, or any person for that matter, would use the exact same tactics that dredd and anderson used in order to survive the ordeal at peach trees. Maxwell Lord posted:I think Dredd in this film isn't portrayed as being quite AS brutal as he sometimes is in the comics-
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Sep 1, 2013 17:37
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Baron Bifford posted:Thank you for this. I've had a hard time convincing the goons on this thread of this. You would argue that burning alive a bunch of guys who are no threat to you is necessary and justified? Under the judge system it is completely justified of course, since they were guilty of attempted murder of a judge. But the judge system is a completely insane fascist system.
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Sep 1, 2013 17:52
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marktheando posted:You would argue that burning alive a bunch of guys who are no threat to you is necessary and justified?
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Sep 1, 2013 18:01
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Hewlett posted:Yeah, we never really see Dredd overtly punish someone for non-violent crimes; he's mostly fighting the violent thugs in the beginning, only waiting to use deadly force until after they run over the "innocent," and then there's all the stuff with Ma-Ma's thugs in Peach Trees. Don't forget, he only stunned those two juvies when he had justification to kill them.
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Sep 1, 2013 18:03
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Honestly I want to see a Judge Dredd who mows people down for jaywalking.
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Sep 1, 2013 18:08
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Baron Bifford posted:If we're talking about the incendiary grenade thing again, those guys were very much a threat. They hadn't seen Dredd. He could have continued past them. Panzeh posted:Honestly I want to see a Judge Dredd who mows people down for jaywalking. In the story Mechanismo there's a robot judge gone berserk that blows a guy's kneecaps off for jaywalking.
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Sep 1, 2013 18:27
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marktheando posted:They hadn't seen Dredd. He could have continued past them.
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Sep 1, 2013 18:42
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Maybe Dredd is compassionate, in his own hosed up way, because most people wouldn't notice a homeless person. They would just sort of walk past them like Anderson did but Dredd probably noticed immediately and wanted to do something about it. Now his something is imprisoning the homeless but for a man who "is the law" that's as close to compassion as you get.
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Sep 1, 2013 18:45
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Christmas Miracle posted:yeah, i wasn't saying that dredd was trying to save him from the blast door. I'm saying that dredd noticing that someone is breaking the law, then offering to let them go is compassionate. In other words, dredd wants to enforce the law because he thinks it will help megacity one, but he's willing to refrain from enforcing the law if he doesn't think it will really help. My guess about why he approached the guy in the first place instead of ignoring him is because he's loitering and violating safety regulations by sitting in the door, not because he thinks the door will close soon. It was pointed out before: He didn't spare the guy, Anderson did. Dredd pointed him out to her and basically said "Here is a lawbreaker, you almost missed him" and she goes "  didn't we want to investigate a murder, sir?"If the movie really would have wanted to go for the jugular Dredd would have said gently caress Murder and taken the time to send the guy to the IsoCubes. But this is another case where the movie makes us chuckle and marvel at how 'compassionate' Dredd/Anderson are, with the added irony that their compassion gets the guy killed anyway.
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Sep 1, 2013 18:52
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Baron Bifford posted:Thank you for this. I've had a hard time convincing the goons on this thread of this. You continue to ignore that this is just flipping the script on the status quo. The people of Peach Trees go after Dredd and Anderson with exact same brutality that the judges have been seen to bring down on -- let's call them what they really are -- the poor. No one is saying Dredd and Anderson are not justified in their tactics (for the most part) once this reversal happens, but the point the movie is overtly making is that Dredd and Ma-Ma, the Hall of Justice and Organized Crime, are the exact same thing. Two sides of the same coin, whatever you want to call it. It's not subtle in making this point. Like, at all.
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Sep 1, 2013 18:52
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Baron Bifford posted:But they were armed and out to kill him. What difference, really, does it make if they just lost track of him for a minute? Oh god now I remember we've had this exact discussion in this thread before.
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Sep 1, 2013 18:58
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Tripwyre posted:You continue to ignore that this is just flipping the script on the status quo. The people of Peach Trees go after Dredd and Anderson with exact same brutality that the judges have been seen to bring down on -- let's call them what they really are -- the poor. No one is saying Dredd and Anderson are not justified in their tactics (for the most part) once this reversal happens, but the point the movie is overtly making is that Dredd and Ma-Ma, the Hall of Justice and Organized Crime, are the exact same thing. Two sides of the same coin, whatever you want to call it. It's not subtle in making this point. Like, at all. How exactly does the movie make the point that Dredd is no different to Ma-Ma? Instead of accusing me of ignorance, show me what I've been overlooking. Give me a bullet list of plot points. And be prepared to have me pick apart your points.
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Sep 1, 2013 19:01
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