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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Or to sum up my point very briefly: the idea that a social contract exists between normal citizens and Judges is laughable. (Which is the point of the scene with the doctor, where he refuses to let the Judges into the clinic and is completely unconvinced by Dredd's claims to legitimate authority.) You're making up half this poo poo in your head. The original script was cartoonishly simple and the director just spruced it up to be less offensively terrible.
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Sep 2, 2013 09:06
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Neutron Bandit posted:You're making up half this poo poo in your head. The original script was cartoonishly simple and the director just spruced it up to be less offensively terrible. Ah, yes, the famous "reading subtext is witchcraft" defense. All I'm saying is that the doctor doesn't recognize Dredd's authority as inherently valuable, at least not enough to open the door for him. Think about what you would do if the police came and knocked on your door with a warrant, and see if you can tell me why that's significant.
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Sep 2, 2013 09:07
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:There's no difference between "the stronger force" and "legitimate." A government is by definition an entity that has a monopoly on force.
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Sep 2, 2013 09:41
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Baron Bifford posted:There's difference between I'm not letting you in because you're a bunch of assholes; all hail Ma-Ma! and I know you're the law, but Ma-Ma will literally have me skinned alive if I help you. If I remember the scene correctly, he doesn't acknowledge either of them and insists on his neutrality. That's not an option you get with real, stable governments.
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Sep 2, 2013 09:43
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It's pretty loving obvious the doctor is motivated by fear and pragmatism rather than any adherence to neutrality in the conflict.
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Sep 2, 2013 09:46
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Baron Bifford posted:The doctor was simply terrified. Ma-Ma threatened to kill anyone who aided the Judges, remember? Whoever he sees as legitimate, he sees Ma-Ma as the stronger force, the one you must not defy if you know what's good for you. I know CineD has a deserved reputation as a haven for overanalytical Marxist circlejerkery, but right now you're kind of coming across like that guy who didn't think Alien had any sexual imagery in it.
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Sep 2, 2013 09:52
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The doctor does explicitly say "there are no sides". He stays neutral out of fear. He's scared of Ma-Ma, he thinks the Judges can't protect him.
Baron Bifford fucked around with this message at 09:55 on Sep 2, 2013 |
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Sep 2, 2013 09:52
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sebmojo posted:I know CineD has a deserved reputation as a haven for overanalytical Marxist circlejerkery, but right now you're kind of coming across like that guy who didn't think Alien had any sexual imagery in it. I know it's hard to accept, but this is the one occasion in this thread where Bifford has been unequivocally correct.
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Sep 2, 2013 09:55
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Vagabundo posted:It's pretty loving obvious the doctor is motivated by fear and pragmatism rather than any adherence to neutrality in the conflict. Sure, but that doesn't make any difference to what I'm saying. Maybe I haven't been clear. A legitimate government has to have the power to enforce its mandates. If you cheat me in a business deal, and I go to the authorities, I have to be able to reasonably expect them to resolve the issue. If an armed group of criminals takes over the apartment building I live in, I have to be able to expect the government to put a stop to it and re-establish order. If it can't do that, and do it consistently enough that people expect and rely on it, then it's not a government, it's anarchy. Citizens of MegaCity One can't expect the (supposed) government to do that. The Judges respond to a tiny minority of crimes; criminals openly attack police officers in broad daylight because they know if they kill him they're off scott-free. Even if they do respond to one particular crime, and even if the outcome is what the callers wanted (which doesn't seem likely if the events of the film are typical), odds are they won't come next time. MegaCity One is in a state of anarchy, which is what makes the Judges' claims of "maintaining order" ironic. Government is not a moral, god-ordained, or philosophical concept; it's a practical one. When I say the Judges are a gang, that's not a moral judgement of how wrong they are (although I definitely think they're wrong), it's a literal description. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 09:59 on Sep 2, 2013 |
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Sep 2, 2013 09:56
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sebmojo posted:I know CineD has a deserved reputation as a haven for overanalytical Marxist circlejerkery, but right now you're kind of coming across like that guy who didn't think Alien had any sexual imagery in it. Tuxedo Catfish posted:Sure, but that doesn't make any difference to what I'm saying. Maybe I haven't been clear. Baron Bifford fucked around with this message at 10:02 on Sep 2, 2013 |
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Sep 2, 2013 09:59
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Baron Bifford posted:Ok, I get it now. You respect strength in a government. We were getting confused over the semantics of the word "legitimate". I'm keeping my focus on motivations and responsibility. Do you think that Dredd has a responsibility that's different from that of an ordinary citizen? Or, to be fair, let's say a different responsibility than anyone with similar skills and resources, but who wasn't a Judge. If you don't, then we're probably closer to agreeing than I thought. If you do, I'd like to hear why.
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Sep 2, 2013 10:08
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So I take it Baron Bifford has never read any of the Dredd comics? Where Dredd is a literal interpretation of the police state? Exagerrated to an extent to be parody or satire? Oh right, it was just a cool action movie. Nope, no other themes than shooting some criminals. Nooooo other works you could possibly base a reading from. Just a plain ol' guy in a faceless helmet who shoots dudes. Because they're criminals.
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Sep 2, 2013 10:30
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Unoriginal Name posted:So I take it Baron Bifford has never read any of the Dredd comics? Where Dredd is a literal interpretation of the police state? Exagerrated to an extent to be parody or satire? To be fair, you can't expect people to read the comics before they can understand the movie. The movie has to do it for itself.
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Sep 2, 2013 10:38
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The movie doesn't need to lean on the comics to be political. It strips away all the reasons that police are respected and valuable in real life (they help people, they prevent more harm than they cause, they deliver criminals to fair trials if at all possible, they're a part of the community they serve, etc.) and then asks us to root for them anyways. I guess there's some room for doubt as to whether it's a satire (setting up this ridiculous situation so that we're forced to question it) or as unironic cheerleading (cops are cops, justice is justice, you have to respect it regardless of the means or results). I'm firmly in the "satire" camp but I'd listen respectfully to an argument that it isn't. But it's either one or the other and both of those are political statements.
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Sep 2, 2013 10:44
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Jedit posted:To be fair, you can't expect people to read the comics before they can understand the movie. The movie has to do it for itself. But you can have say, some understanding that say, the Flash will run really fast, right? You don't need even need a movie to exist to know that a Judge Dredd movie might include some themes about abuse of police power and the implications thereof. Refusing to see them, or for that matter even loving look is just dense beyond words.
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Sep 2, 2013 10:44
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:The movie doesn't need to lean on the comics to be political. It strips away all the reasons that police are respected and valuable in real life (they help people, they prevent more harm than they cause, they deliver criminals to fair trials if at all possible, they're a part of the community they serve, etc.) and then asks us to root for them anyways. I can't see it in any other way as dark satire, but I am familiar with the core concept of Judge Dredd. However, anecdote: most of my friends who have seen the movie are wondering just why should we root for the Judges, "they're pretty much horrible corrupt violent pigs facing even worse people, I have trouble parsing these conflicting messages" - which, for me, is an indicator that the satire is the... intended route.
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Sep 2, 2013 11:41
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Dredd is judge, jury and executioner. All of the judges can and do sentence people to death at a moment's notice. How someone can see this system as presented in Dredd and think that this is not a strongly satirical concept is loving beyond me.
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Sep 2, 2013 11:51
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El Perkele posted:I can't see it in any other way as dark satire, but I am familiar with the core concept of Judge Dredd. However, anecdote: most of my friends who have seen the movie are wondering just why should we root for the Judges, "they're pretty much horrible corrupt violent pigs facing even worse people, I have trouble parsing these conflicting messages" - which, for me, is an indicator that the satire is the... intended route.
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Sep 2, 2013 12:01
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Baron Bifford posted:I should note that Dredd himself is not corrupt. He doesn't take bribes or engage in other misconduct. He's honest and a good judge by MC1 standards. The trick is to realize that MC1 standards are loving terrible.
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Sep 2, 2013 12:09
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The Justice Department is undermanned, so Judges like Dredd are encouraged to be very aggressive to the point of being cowboyish.
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Sep 2, 2013 12:13
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So you are saying MC1 would be Utopia if it weren't for the lack of manpower?
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Sep 2, 2013 12:14
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Barlow posted:Having just seen this film I think it may be the clearest example of Poe's Law in a film that I've ever seen. I honestly can't tell if parts of it are a celebration of a right-wing "law and order" police state or a parody of it as some people here are arguing. My inclination is to say that it's both, though I'm not sure that everyone involved in the writing and production understood it as such. I really can't see how someone could watch Dredd and come away thinking it's celeberating Dredd's actions. Everything about it says this system is lovely and it doesn't work. I didn't feel that it ever glorified what Dredd did, when he stunned and executed people it was about as far away from a cool action hero as you could get. His eye for an eye executon of Mama at the end really hammered it home that Dredd is not a good guy. I did enjoy the action but in the same way as I enjoy Terminator gunning down a bunch of people in a nightclub when chasing down Sarah Connor.
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Sep 2, 2013 12:58
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NoneSuch posted:I did enjoy the action but in the same way as I enjoy Terminator gunning down a bunch of people in a nightclub when chasing down Sarah Connor. Which is ironic, because Lena Headey has played Sarah Connor. Dredd is pretty much the reverse scenario - a good guy terminator come to kill the evil anti-authoritarian leader.
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Sep 2, 2013 13:02
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NoneSuch posted:I really can't see how someone could watch Dredd and come away thinking it's celeberating Dredd's actions. Everything about it says this system is lovely and it doesn't work. I didn't feel that it ever glorified what Dredd did, when he stunned and executed people it was about as far away from a cool action hero as you could get. His eye for an eye executon of Mama at the end really hammered it home that Dredd is not a good guy.
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Sep 2, 2013 13:37
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Baron Bifford posted:Dredd's actions are not to be celebrated, but they cannot be condemned either. He pretty much does what he has to do. I think Anderson comes pretty close to condemning herself several times during the movie when she has to be a Judge, and you're clearly meant to see that. She still does what she "has to do", which makes her a good judge, and it certainly keeps her alive.
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Sep 2, 2013 13:45
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Baron Bifford posted:Dredd's actions are not to be celebrated, but they cannot be condemned either. He pretty much does what he has to do. Not really, he could be working to improve the system. I guess that's beyond a guy who is shown to be incredibly resourceful, intelligent and determined. Can't change the system oh well, better shoot these guys before they shoot me, that's the Only Way.
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Sep 2, 2013 13:48
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Here's a somewhat related question for the comic book dudes: does Dredd ever question the system, or does he think it's perfectly fine the way it is?
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Sep 2, 2013 13:52
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Baron Bifford posted:I am quite astounded by the extraordinary views that people have taken from what I found to be a very straightforward action film with no deep political or philosophical message. This is a heinously ideological position to hold. No messy politics here, just a quick fun flick featuring a police state and the abject poor, plus some bonus fun references to 'enhanced interrogation' and overt imagery recalling literal war crimes.
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Sep 2, 2013 13:59
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Baron Bifford posted:Dredd's actions are not to be celebrated, but they cannot be condemned either. He pretty much does what he has to do. Why does he have to do it?
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Sep 2, 2013 14:02
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peer posted:Here's a somewhat related question for the comic book dudes: does Dredd ever question the system, or does he think it's perfectly fine the way it is? I haven't read them, but I've heard it mentioned in this thread that Dredd has in fact been a force for (very slow) progressive change over the course of the comics.
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Sep 2, 2013 14:03
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Shanty posted:Not really, he could be working to improve the system. Grendels Dad posted:Why does he have to do it?
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Sep 2, 2013 14:12
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Baron Bifford posted:Dredd's actions are not to be celebrated, but they cannot be condemned either. He pretty much does what he has to do. Why can't they be condemned? Just doing your job isn't considered a very good excuse.
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Sep 2, 2013 14:13
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Baron Bifford posted:This movie isn't really about Dredd's relationship to the system. While the movie drops plenty of hints about MC1 been a really hosed up police state, it doesn't really hit you will the fullness of what is depicted in the comics. This movie is just about Dredd trying to survive a lovely day. Well that's... Sort of my point? This movie depicts a Bad Situation. Dredd is not a force for Good because what we mainly see him do is executing people. The fact that the movie aligns itself with Dredd (the bad guy) is what makes it satire (hey look how ridiculous this is, the maniac is the hero of the movie).
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Sep 2, 2013 14:17
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Baron Bifford posted:Mostly survival. That comes when he enters Peach Trees. Why does he go there? Why does he put on the uniform? You still haven't answered whether you think Mega City 1 would be Utopia if it just had a billion more Judges.
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Sep 2, 2013 14:21
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Grendels Dad posted:Why does he have to do it? Because it's the law. Again the film makes it clear even though they're in a bad situation, Dredd is still a Judge and he's going to carry out the duties of one. He never removes that "hat". Every shot fired in self defense is really an execution being carried out, he even tells Anderson that before she shoots the defenseless survivor. She has to shoot the guy because he broke the law.
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Sep 2, 2013 14:26
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peer posted:Here's a somewhat related question for the comic book dudes: does Dredd ever question the system, or does he think it's perfectly fine the way it is?
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Sep 2, 2013 14:28
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Shanty posted:Well that's... Sort of my point? This movie depicts a Bad Situation. Dredd is not a force for Good because what we mainly see him do is executing people. The fact that the movie aligns itself with Dredd (the bad guy) is what makes it satire (hey look how ridiculous this is, the maniac is the hero of the movie). meatsaw posted:Every shot fired in self defense is really an execution being carried out Baron Bifford fucked around with this message at 14:33 on Sep 2, 2013 |
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Sep 2, 2013 14:29
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Baron Bifford posted:Once Dredd reaches Peach Trees, he's not much different from John McClane in Die Hard or Casey Ryback in Under Siege. This, I think. Whatever the larger implications of whether the Law is good or bad, or the Judges, or everything else, the fact is that he is a lawman trying to survive being hunted down by criminals, and the extreme methods that he may seem to use are just par for the current circumstances, like the "escalation" that Gordon mentions in Batman Begins. I did not know anything about Dredd before watching this movie, and to me it was a great action movie about cops surviving in a crapsack world. I'm probably completely off based on the discussion so far but that how I saw it.  Granted the horribly lopsided crime stats made my furrow my brow but the movie didn't seem to be about the cause and effect of that. Kraps fucked around with this message at 14:44 on Sep 2, 2013 |
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Sep 2, 2013 14:41
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Baron Bifford posted:Y'know, if this movie was not set in the future and did not feature a guy who calls himself a "Judge" adapted from a comic book well-known for its fierce satire of iron-fisted policing, but instead was set in the modern day featuring a joe average guy, people interpret everything very differently. Once Dredd reaches Peach Trees, he's not much different from John McClane in Die Hard or Casey Ryback in Under Siege. Ah, yes Die Hard, another totally apolitical film which overtly recalls neoliberal imperialism. Like Die Hard being tangled up in the appropriation of the Vietnam narrative ("Just like fuckin' Saigon!"), Dredd too sees the enemy hiding in a civilian population; even here actually encompassing the civilian population.
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Sep 2, 2013 14:43
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BreakAtmo posted:I haven't read them, but I've heard it mentioned in this thread that Dredd has in fact been a force for (very slow) progressive change over the course of the comics. There's also the Democracy storyline for the comics which deals with the question.
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Sep 2, 2013 14:57
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