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bunnyofdoom posted:You mean Macaroth? He's the one whose warmaster now. The Imperial use of Warmaster after the Heresy is weird. You'd think that title would have been completely removed from society just like all variants of Führer in Germany post WW2. Then again, I can only remember Abnett using it. Maybe he just made a mistake early on and ran with it.
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Sep 2, 2013 12:57
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Donnerberg posted:The Imperial use of Warmaster after the Heresy is weird. You'd think that title would have been completely removed from society just like all variants of Führer in Germany post WW2. Then again, I can only remember Abnett using it. Maybe he just made a mistake early on and ran with it. It's funny, because I'm reading Eisenhorn again and I noticed that at one point in the second book, the part where the psykers at the triumph got loose, a White Consul marine destroys a void shield generator and dies in the process, Eisenhorn makes a mental note to have the marine honored by the White Consul Primarch, not Chapter Master. The White Consuls is an Ultramarines successor chapter.
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Sep 2, 2013 13:07
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Demiurge4 posted:It's funny, because I'm reading Eisenhorn again and I noticed that at one point in the second book, the part where the psykers at the triumph got loose, a White Consul marine destroys a void shield generator and dies in the process, Eisenhorn makes a mental note to have the marine honored by the White Consul Primarch, not Chapter Master. Eisenhorn was an earlier book before the fluff had been fully hammered out.
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Sep 2, 2013 13:55
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Also mentions squats.
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Sep 2, 2013 13:55
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Nephilm posted:Also mentions squats. Do you have it to hand? Been years since I read it.
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Sep 2, 2013 13:59
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whatever happened to Squats anyway? Did they get retconned? Why? I just remember them having the best biker squads in 40k, all dressed up in leathers riding lowriders, and they had terminator units that looked like eggs.
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Sep 2, 2013 14:21
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Donnerberg posted:The Imperial use of Warmaster after the Heresy is weird. You'd think that title would have been completely removed from society just like all variants of Führer in Germany post WW2. Then again, I can only remember Abnett using it. Maybe he just made a mistake early on and ran with it. I think it's one of those things that goes in and out of fashion. The infamy of the term might actually add to the appeal for the kind of person who gets appointed warmaster. "Lord Solar" is supposedly an alternative for more devout people who don't like the connotations of the term. Dravs posted:whatever happened to Squats anyway? Did they get retconned? Why? The excuse that was originally given was that they broke some of the molds for the Squat minis when moving production facilities. So they said that the tyranids ate all the Squat homeworlds. Honestly, it's probably because the models were pretty silly and not great sellers, and GW at the time was trying to move the setting away from being a straight "Warhammer in Space" and was also getting a little too worried about making things more serious.
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Sep 2, 2013 15:37
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They're kinda-sorta back as the Demiurg in Battlefleet Gothic but I think even in that game they're linked to the Tau.
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Sep 2, 2013 15:44
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Reading the ADB Night Lords books has led me to realize that not all the traitor legions are all :black: RAAAAAGH CHAOS BLOOD KILL SKULL GODS :black: While some are, there are those who truly believe, in their heart of hearts of hearts, they truly believe the Emprah is the one who betrayed them. It was he who strayed from the original path of the crusade. It's pretty interesting seeing these guys bear the horrible consequences of their decision they believe to be right and true to the crusade groundwork laid down millenia ago.
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Sep 2, 2013 15:53
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I thought it was pretty standard that all crusades approved by the High Lords of Terra had an appointed Warmaster. Although I do agree it's suprising to still use the rank. edit: Also just remembered the Squats were mentioned in the latest Cain book as one of the client races of the Tau, which makes sense as it's on the Eastern Fringe with a bunch of Nid activity.
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Sep 2, 2013 16:24
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Cream_Filling posted:I think it's one of those things that goes in and out of fashion. The infamy of the term might actually add to the appeal for the kind of person who gets appointed warmaster. "Lord Solar" is supposedly an alternative for more devout people who don't like the connotations of the term.
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Sep 2, 2013 18:56
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Baron Bifford posted:Knowledge of the Heresy was suppressed afterwards. Most Imperials don't know there was a Warmaster named Horus who did very bad things, so perhaps there is no infamy. What is your basis for saying this? edit: actually, you know what? Never mind.
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Sep 2, 2013 18:59
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I swear I remember reading it in one of the rulebooks.
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Sep 2, 2013 19:01
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I'm almost 100% positive that an earlier Chaos SM codex mentions that the only normal folks that have any real information about it are in the inquisition. Doesn't seem all that far fetched with what happened after the first Armageddon war.
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Sep 2, 2013 19:24
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Baron Bifford posted:Knowledge of the Heresy was suppressed afterwards. Most Imperials don't know there was a Warmaster named Horus who did very bad things, so perhaps there is no infamy. Honestly i remember reading this too. I am not sure where, but i distinctly remember that knowledge of the Horus Heresy was somewhat not public knowledge. I find the knowledge of certain things by the imperial people, to be rather odd. For example i seem to recall that at a point the inquisition chased a bunch of guardsmen trying to exterminate them, burning worlds after worlds to kill them because they knew of the chaos/warp. Yet in Gaunts Ghosts, everybody seems to know about Chaos/Traitor marines/etc.
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Sep 2, 2013 19:26
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Knowledge of the Traitor Legions was scoured from public record. The higher your rank, the more you know, but I think only the Ordo Malleus knows all the details of the Heresy.
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Sep 2, 2013 19:28
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UberJumper posted:Honestly i remember reading this too. I am not sure where, but i distinctly remember that knowledge of the Horus Heresy was somewhat not public knowledge. My take is the Ordo Malleus isn't very good at its job, or possibly they only surpress knowledge of demons, not traitors.
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Sep 2, 2013 19:29
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Which novels touch upon the Emperor's earliest dealings with the Mechanicum? I always wondered why the Emperor put up with their weird beliefs. Wouldn't it have been wiser to convert the tech-priests to the ways of science while they were still limited to Mars, before they grew into a massive galaxy-spanning organization by the Great Crusade?
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Sep 2, 2013 19:37
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I have a long flight coming up. I wanted to pick up a few Horus Heresy books I haven't read. Should I avoid any of : Galaxy in Flames, Descent of Angels, The First Heretic, Thousand Sons, or Fear to Tread?
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Sep 2, 2013 19:37
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I enjoyed Thousand Sons.
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Sep 2, 2013 19:39
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Waroduce posted:I have a long flight coming up. I wanted to pick up a few Horus Heresy books I haven't read. Should I avoid any of : Galaxy in Flames, Descent of Angels, The First Heretic, Thousand Sons, or Fear to Tread? Descent of Angels is pretty bad and boring. It's barely even about the heresy anyway. I wasn't a fan and it's eminently skippable. Galaxy in Flames was pretty poorly written but is fairly central to the plot. Thousand Sons is not that well written either but it's almost forgivable because Prospero Burns is really good. First Heretic is pretty good and Fear to Tread is excellent, on a relative scale to the series as a whole. UberJumper posted:Honestly i remember reading this too. I am not sure where, but i distinctly remember that knowledge of the Horus Heresy was somewhat not public knowledge. I think it's that people know the Horus Heresy happened but they don't know the full extent of the warp or of the existence of daemons beyond hearsay and myth. Though really it changes entirely based on plot convenience aka the whims of the local imperial authorities and inquisition in that particular point in space and time. OXBALLS DOT COM fucked around with this message at 19:45 on Sep 2, 2013 |
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Sep 2, 2013 19:42
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Waroduce posted:I have a long flight coming up. I wanted to pick up a few Horus Heresy books I haven't read. Should I avoid any of : Galaxy in Flames, Descent of Angels, The First Heretic, Thousand Sons, or Fear to Tread? Don't bother with Descent of Angels unless you get the follow-up as well (Fallen Angels, I think). If you get Thousand Sons, pick up Prospero Burns as well.
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Sep 2, 2013 19:44
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In the Emperor's Gift, Hyperion says "Angron, Lord of the Twelfth Legion. The wider Imperium could never be allowed to know that the Emperor's own sons turned against him, nor that the Gray Knights existed in the empire's shadows, fighting a war against creatures that couldn't be real", which heavily implies that the Heresy isn't general knowledge. On the other hand, in the Ciaphas Cain and Gaunt's Ghosts books the knowledge that Traitor Marines exist seems to be commonplace throughout the IG. I can't recall any comments about the Traitor Primarchs, but the existence of the Traitor Legions seems to be common knowledge among the Guard.
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Sep 2, 2013 20:00
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UberJumper posted:Honestly i remember reading this too. I am not sure where, but i distinctly remember that knowledge of the Horus Heresy was somewhat not public knowledge. This is just the difference in authors, Abnett writes a noticeably more light-hearted 40k with regular people understanding science and knowing about chaos. The bit you are talking about is the events after the first battle for Armageddon, covered in ADB's Emperor's gift but established long before that (and before Abnett's novels). The events after Armageddon did apparently change Imperial policy towards this sort of thing though, so it would explain the conflicts in the fiction if you assume that's based on date/spread of policy reform.
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Sep 2, 2013 20:02
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Khizan posted:In the Emperor's Gift, Hyperion says "Angron, Lord of the Twelfth Legion. The wider Imperium could never be allowed to know that the Emperor's own sons turned against him, nor that the Gray Knights existed in the empire's shadows, fighting a war against creatures that couldn't be real", which heavily implies that the Heresy isn't general knowledge. I think the point of Emperor's Gift is that people can't know that the traitor primarchs are actually still sort-of alive as immortal, unkillable daemon princes, not that they can't know that half the legions rebelled against the emperor in some hazy time of legends 10,000 years ago. Also Hyperion is honestly a pretty unreliable source in terms of knowledge about everyday people in the Imperium.
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Sep 2, 2013 20:08
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What I gathered is the citizens do know about the traitor legions, but they're portrayed as renegades from the space marines. They don't necessarily know about the Heresy/fallen primarchs.
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Sep 2, 2013 20:14
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bunnyofdoom posted:What I gathered is the citizens do know about the traitor legions, but they're portrayed as renegades from the space marines. They don't necessarily know about the Heresy/fallen primarchs. I simply must find the book that details this. I know for sure daemons are kept top secret but not the Traitor Legions.
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Sep 2, 2013 20:22
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Baron Bifford posted:Which novels touch upon the Emperor's earliest dealings with the Mechanicum? I always wondered why the Emperor put up with their weird beliefs. Wouldn't it have been wiser to convert the tech-priests to the ways of science while they were still limited to Mars, before they grew into a massive galaxy-spanning organization by the Great Crusade? Mechanicum and a bit of Titanicus deal with the Omnissiah/Emperor split. Mechanicum in particular, being a Horus Heresy novel, deals with "first contact" and the Emperors initial dealings with the AdMech.
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Sep 2, 2013 20:23
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Khizan posted:In the Emperor's Gift, Hyperion says "Angron, Lord of the Twelfth Legion. The wider Imperium could never be allowed to know that the Emperor's own sons turned against him, nor that the Gray Knights existed in the empire's shadows, fighting a war against creatures that couldn't be real", which heavily implies that the Heresy isn't general knowledge. One of the Cain books (Last Stand I think) has a quip about a general refusing the title of "Warmaster" because "it encourages unhealthy ambitions" which everyone else (a bunch of schoolteachers) laughs at. Plus there are many IG regiments that are famous for what earlier generations did during the Heresy (eg the Tallarn Raiders). So the details of who, why, how, and what became of them may not be known, but the general outlines of the Heresy are. Probably something along the lines of the stories of Gilgamesh and Hammurabi - people are aware of it, but haven't done much studying, and most of their knowledge about it comes from brief references they pick up in the background of day to day life rather than being something they actively study.
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Sep 2, 2013 21:23
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Until they were retconned back in (as dead) later, for a while the inquisition didn't even know the names of all the original legions and their primarchs. Which I actually prefer. Ultimately, all arguments on stuff like this that's never been well settled should be couched on how it impacts the narrative possibilities and themes of the setting.
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Sep 2, 2013 21:26
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Cream_Filling posted:Until they were retconned back in (as dead) later, for a while the inquisition didn't even know the names of all the original legions and their primarchs. Which I actually prefer. Nope, that's still an aggressive point. There are also chapters who they don't know where they came from.
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Sep 2, 2013 21:29
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Fried Chicken posted:Nope, that's still an aggressive point. There are also chapters who they don't know where they came from. Yeah I phrased that poorly. I mean back when there was zero info on what happened to them, so any of those random chapters with mysterious histories could be another first founding chapter. As opposed to the current position from the Horus Heresy series where they know that they're dead and just nobody wants to talk about it.
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Sep 2, 2013 21:37
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VanSandman posted:Eisenhorn was an earlier book before the fluff had been fully hammered out.
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Sep 2, 2013 23:40
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Recently became interested in 40k, is there a list somewhere of the unabridged audio books? There was a very short version of Eisenhorn on tape, but it really only got me wanting more.
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Sep 3, 2013 03:28
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Arquinsiel posted:It's really not compared to where Primarchs turned up first. Xenos was a 2001 release, and the first I noticed the White Consuls was in the free painting guide back in '96 or '97. Apparently they were in Codex: Ultramarines back in '95 as a successor chapter of the Legion, and they haven't really changed much of the basic fluff that was copy-pasted from that since then about how the Legions were formed and the basic Primarch history.
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Sep 3, 2013 03:59
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Nah, the simplest explanation is that Abnett occasionally just does his own thing and doesn't check if it fits. It's also possible that the White Consuls are dicks and decided that their Chapter Master will be ranked as "Primarch" to tweak the noses of the smurfs, similar to how the Salamanders decided to use "Vulkan" as a title for theirs for no drat reason.
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Sep 3, 2013 04:29
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Ardent Communist posted:You guys are forgetting this simplest explanation. Maybe Eisenhorn was just loving it up? He knew Primarchs led Space Marines, but not that they don't anymore. So he said he was going to make sure his boss knows, but used the wrong job title. Yeah it's probably a typo or oversight, either in-universe or just from the editing team. If you wanted to retcon it, you could also easily make up an excuse like saying the chapter masters for that particular chapter bear the High Gothic title "Hand of the Primarch" which in common usage and translation has become shortened to "Primarch," or any number of plausible overcomplicated explanations since so much of the universe is still a blank slate. Or else it means that he's arranging to have someone say a prayer for him to Guilliman's stasis tomb.
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Sep 3, 2013 04:34
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Baron Bifford posted:Which novels touch upon the Emperor's earliest dealings with the Mechanicum? I always wondered why the Emperor put up with their weird beliefs. Wouldn't it have been wiser to convert the tech-priests to the ways of science while they were still limited to Mars, before they grew into a massive galaxy-spanning organization by the Great Crusade? As was said above, Mechanicum and to a lesser extent Titanicus provide insight, but my impression is that the Void Dragon had been loving with the minds of the percusors to the Mechanicum for a while before the Emperor came on the scene (which is funny, considering that legends suggest the Emperor was the one who sealed it on Mars), so the cult of the Mechanicum was already effectively established and he just stepped into the role. Or maybe the Emperor purposely sealed it on Mars so it would send the scientists into a technoreligious fervor, developing the concept of the Omnissiah, which the Emperor would later claim to be 
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Sep 3, 2013 04:55
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Pyrolocutus posted:As was said above, Mechanicum and to a lesser extent Titanicus provide insight, but my impression is that the Void Dragon had been loving with the minds of the percusors to the Mechanicum for a while before the Emperor came on the scene (which is funny, considering that legends suggest the Emperor was the one who sealed it on Mars), so the cult of the Mechanicum was already effectively established and he just stepped into the role. Well the Emperor was pretty convincing when he touched a Titan and said "Machine, repair thyself" and it's broken actuator magically fixed itself.
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Sep 3, 2013 05:27
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Pyrolocutus posted:As was said above, Mechanicum and to a lesser extent Titanicus provide insight, but my impression is that the Void Dragon had been loving with the minds of the percusors to the Mechanicum for a while before the Emperor came on the scene (which is funny, considering that legends suggest the Emperor was the one who sealed it on Mars), so the cult of the Mechanicum was already effectively established and he just stepped into the role.
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Sep 3, 2013 05:44
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