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petrol blue posted:I agree with you, but there's also the issue of the PR if they abandon the U. Even if they gave everyone a full refund (for games as well as hardware), they're still gonna get crucified in the press. I think they really have to keep trickling out games for it, and supporting it to some degree. Having only moved 3 million or so consoles, the PR hit would probably be a lot less than the one MS took for building an entire generation's worth of defective consoles, or the one Sony took for losing control of millions of people's personal information and having their online service down for a month, and would certainly be recoverable. Plus, Nintendo has fans with the Apple-fan-like ability to gloss over ways their favorite company has hosed them. That can really work in their favor of they pull of the bandaid fast.
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Sep 2, 2013 22:33
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It sounds a lot like the plan for success is to become Sony or Microsoft, according to you.
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Sep 2, 2013 22:35
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TheScott2K posted:Stop wasting money pushing the WiiU, focus on handheld, and put a big red target on Christmas 2019. We'll be five years deep into a generation that the manufacturers are hoping will last for 10, and Nintendo, absent since 2014, will have something that is actually an improvement on existing hardware. Just vanishing from the console market for 5 years? That would be a crazily bad move, far worse than any wrong moves made so far with the Wii U. "The console you buy may be abandoned by its own manufacturer 2 years after release" is the worst precedent Nintendo could possibly set, from a consumer perspective. It's the most surefire way to guarantee that their next console performs even worse in the marketplace. It makes more sense to set a target for how their next platform needs to be, and gradually bring the Wii U towards that in terms of services and features (subject to what is possible on the current hardware). Look at how Sony added Playstation Plus to the PS3, and is now leveraging that service to make the transition towards PS4 more appealing. That's the type of strategy Nintendo should be considering.
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Sep 2, 2013 22:35
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Casnorf posted:It sounds a lot like the plan for success is to become Sony or Microsoft, according to you. No, the plan for success is to focus the hardware business on handheld and be an incredible third party software developer for Sony and Microsoft consoles. But if they insist on playing the home console games, yea, they should probably take some cues on how to play defense from the company that intercepted their touchdown pass in the 90s. Supercar Gautier posted:Just vanishing from the console market for 5 years? That would be a crazily bad move, far worse than any wrong moves made so far with the Wii U. "The console you buy may be abandoned by its own manufacturer 2 years after release" is the worst precedent Nintendo could possibly set, from a consumer perspective. It's the most surefire way to guarantee that their next console performs even worse in the marketplace. It's a move that, of the big three, only Nintendo has a chance of getting away with. Their fanbase loves them. quote:It makes more sense to set a target for how their next platform needs to be, and gradually bring the Wii U towards that in terms of services and features (subject to what is possible on the current hardware). Look at how Sony added Playstation Plus to the PS3, and is now leveraging that service to make the transition towards PS4 more appealing. That's the type of strategy Nintendo should be considering. There is nowhere to go on the current hardware. They built a machine to compete with the PS3 and the XBox360 and the buying public knows it. That's not a failure of marketing, it's a failure of knowing your market. No third party (Nintendo's true customers, if we're going to get real here) is going to waste its time essentially building a secondary home console market for them when there is already an install base of tens of millions of consoles with comparable hardware that's existed since the middle of the middle of the previous decade. That especially won't happen now, when the unspoken worry of every AAA game developer (and console manufacturer) is that the $400 box/$60 game market is going to plateau any day now. That wouldn't be a death blow if Nintendo was capable of delivering enough first party titles quickly enough to make up for it like they did on the N64, but they just aren't. TheScott2K fucked around with this message at 22:43 on Sep 2, 2013 |
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Sep 2, 2013 22:37
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Supercar Gautier posted:
Sony was able to do that with the PS3 because the American Division of Sony took over. I seriously doubt that NOA will be calling the shots anytime soon. Iwata and NOJ are two of the biggest blocks to that ever happening. They're the reason why the Wii-U still doesn't have proper internet and the DS streetpass is screwy.
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Sep 2, 2013 22:38
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Perhaps besides the point, but Mario Galaxy absolutely was considered a 10/10 classic at the time of its release, nostalgia has nothing to do with how well regarded it still is.
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Sep 2, 2013 22:39
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TheScott2K posted:No, the plan for success is to focus the hardware business on handheld and be an incredible third party software developer for Sony and Microsoft consoles. But if they insist on playing the home console games, yea, they should probably take some cues on how to play defense from the company that intercepted their touchdown pass in the 90s. I think that would be a harder transition for them than you make it sound. They probably need the profits they make from being a console developer to maintain the R&D that lets them put out the games they do.
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Sep 2, 2013 22:40
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Leyburn posted:Perhaps besides the point, but Mario Galaxy absolutely was considered a 10/10 classic at the time of its release, nostalgia has nothing to do with how well regarded it still is. But no games are like that on the Wii-U. They're not even coming until 2014.
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Sep 2, 2013 22:40
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WendigoJohnson posted:Sony was able to do that with the PS3 because the American Division of Sony took over. I seriously doubt that NOA will be calling the shots anytime soon. Iwata and NOJ are two of the biggest blocks to that ever happening. They're the reason why the Wii-U still doesn't have proper internet and the DS streetpass is screwy. If we're talking about realistic moves that Iwata might make, I think "Nintendo needs to add value and improve their reputation with good services and features" is certainly a more realistic proposition than "Nintendo needs to throw their console in the garbage can and go third party". TheScott2K posted:It's a move that, of the big three, only Nintendo has a chance of getting away with. Their fanbase loves them. Not even Nintendo's fanbase would just forgive "Hey remember that time we stopped releasing anything for 5 years?" You're taking jokes and hyperboles about fan behaviour way too seriously. Supercar Gautier fucked around with this message at 23:07 on Sep 2, 2013 |
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Sep 2, 2013 22:44
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WendigoJohnson posted:But no games are like that on the Wii-U. They're not even coming until 2014. I think it's fairly safe to say, going by the demo and some of the videos that people have put out showcasing the game, that Wonderful 101 is a solid 10/10 game on the level of Bayonetta.
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Sep 2, 2013 22:44
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Sir Ilpalazzo posted:I think that would be a harder transition for them than you make it sound. They probably need the profits they make from being a console developer to maintain the R&D that lets them put out the games they do. The choice here isn't "profits or nothing," it's "losses from the WiiU or nothing." Pick nothing, live on that sweet handheld money, and put together a "better than the PS4" x86 box for 2019. I'm sure nvidia would give them a hell of a deal on something that'll pull off the 1080p/60 that the XBox One and PS4 seem to be dancing around not quite pulling off. Or, again, stop with the home console nonsense. They clearly have no interest in truly owning the living room, anyway.
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Sep 2, 2013 22:46
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Sir Ilpalazzo posted:I think it's fairly safe to say, going by the demo and some of the videos that people have put out showcasing the game, that Wonderful 101 is a solid 10/10 game on the level of Bayonetta. I don't own a Wii U, but I have to say that I would be strongly considering passing on one if the PS4 and Xbox One had even a single game that looked to be on that level. Wonderful 101 plays similar to Pikmin, but it's no Journey, Shadow of the Colossus or Halo. It's got a few rough edges that do stick out and it probably would have benefited from a few months more development time to even them out.
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Sep 2, 2013 22:47
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Sir Ilpalazzo posted:I think it's fairly safe to say, going by the demo and some of the videos that people have put out showcasing the game, that Wonderful 101 is a solid 10/10 game on the level of Bayonetta. I don't own a Wii U, but I have to say that I would be strongly considering passing on one if the PS4 and Xbox One had even a single game that looked to be on that level. The only way W101 is a solid 10 is if we're talking about a 15 or 20 point scale. poo poo, I love Bayonetta, but I wouldn't even give it a 10/10.
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Sep 2, 2013 22:49
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TheScott2K posted:The choice here isn't "profits or nothing," it's "losses from the WiiU or nothing." Pick nothing, live on that sweet handheld money, and put together a "better than the PS4" x86 box for 2019. I'm sure nvidia would give them a hell of a deal on something that'll pull off the 1080p/60 that the XBox One and PS4 seem to be dancing around not quite pulling off. As bad as the Wii U's situation is, I think it would be even worse for Nintendo to temporarily go third-party on consoles (which would probably irreversibly change the way the public views them) or vanish from the console space until 2019. Sir Ilpalazzo fucked around with this message at 22:57 on Sep 2, 2013 |
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Sep 2, 2013 22:50
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Leyburn posted:Perhaps besides the point, but Mario Galaxy absolutely was considered a 10/10 classic at the time of its release, nostalgia has nothing to do with how well regarded it still is. The rest of his post indicates he meant Mario Sunshine. He's right, and it applies to Wind Waker as well.
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Sep 2, 2013 22:51
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Sir Ilpalazzo posted:As bad as the Wii U's situation is, I think it would be even worse for Nintendo to temporarily go third-party on consoles (which would probably irreversibly change the way the public views them) or vanish from the console space until 2019. Could you explain why Nintendo publishing 3rd party console games would be so damaging? How could the way the public views them turn for the worse? What is the way the public views them?
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Sep 2, 2013 22:51
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WendigoJohnson posted:But no games are like that on the Wii-U. They're not even coming until 2014. Ohh I get that. I think the only thing that could realistically convince me to get a Wii U would be if it cost £150 and had a theoretical Super Mario Universe on it. I don't even see how it can be saved at this point. It's the wrong product and the market for it doesn't exist. The only thing that I could see possibly working would be for Nintendo to bankroll talented devs who know how to make HD games and let them loose on their IPs. With enough great games and a low price they could maybe start shifting some units, but realistically I don't see anything of the sort happening. AdmiralViscen posted:The rest of his post indicates he meant Mario Sunshine. He's right, and it applies to Wind Waker as well. Ahhhh, that makes more sense. Leyburn fucked around with this message at 22:55 on Sep 2, 2013 |
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Sep 2, 2013 22:52
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Purgatory Glory posted:Mario Kart and Zelda will be fantastic titles. I said to myself last year that I'd get a Wii U when Zelda came out. Then over the last few months I've really thought about it, and now I'm not going to. I was thinking of Zelda games like Ocarina, Link to the Past, and Wind Waker. But then all the recent ones have been mediocre or worse. Twilight Princess, Phantom Hourglass, Spirit Tracks, Skyward Sword, none of them has really scratched the itch that previous games did. Hell, the game I'm playing most at the moment is a remake of Ocarina of Time, and that originally came out 15 years ago. Skyward Sword on the other hand put me off with terrible motion controls (I know some people found it fine, but if a significant minority complains then it's Nintendo at fault and not the players), and went in the complete opposite direction I wanted it to go by going from a single contiguous land to multiple separated areas connected only by a pretty much empty sky. Sure Wind Waker did something similar but that at least felt like one huge world, and had other aspects that more than made up for it. I've come to terms with the fact that Zelda hasn't been great for a long time, and probably won't be for a good long while more with the possible exception of A Link Between Worlds, and even with that I'm waiting a few weeks for non-hyped reactions before I buy it. And without Zelda I really don't give a gently caress about the Wii U
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Sep 2, 2013 22:53
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Fallom posted:Could you explain why Nintendo publishing 3rd party console games would be so damaging? How could the way the public views them turn for the worse? What is the way the public views them? I think most people just buy Nintendo systems to get Nintendo games. Being able to get Mario or Zelda on Sony or Microsoft systems would devalue future Nintendo systems even more in the eyes of most people. WendigoJohnson posted:Wonderful 101 plays similar to Pikmin, but it's no Journey, Shadow of the Colossus or Halo. It's got a few rough edges that do stick out and it probably would have benefited from a few months more development time to even them out. Maybe the full game is significantly worse than the demo. But Journey and Shadow of the Colossus are definitely nowhere near being 10/10 games. Journey especially is more of a 4 - having a few rough edges is still preferable to having nothing. Sir Ilpalazzo fucked around with this message at 23:01 on Sep 2, 2013 |
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Sep 2, 2013 22:56
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AdmiralViscen posted:The rest of his post indicates he meant Mario Sunshine. He's right, and it applies to Wind Waker as well. That's right, I did mean Mario Sunshine, my mistake. It definitely applies to Wind Waker. I remember when it came out, people hated Wind Waker with a passion. People would write long diatribes (like that loving word salad I just shat out) about how much better a "mature" Zelda would be. Fast forward eight years, everyone hates Twilight Princess and Nintendo is in the delusional state that an HD remastering of WW that costs more than the original release is going to move consoles.
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Sep 2, 2013 22:58
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WendigoJohnson posted:Wonderful 101 plays similar to Pikmin What in the world? You should try these two games out.
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Sep 2, 2013 22:59
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Sir Ilpalazzo posted:I think most people just buy Nintendo systems to get Nintendo games. Being able to get Mario or Zelda on Sony or Microsoft systems would devalue future Nintendo systems even more in the eyes of most people. Who are the "most people" you're referring to here? The handful who have actually thrown down money on a WiiU? The first-time console buyers who made up the bulk of Wii buyers who put the thing in a closet after Obama took office and never took it back out? The GameCube owners who didn't want to buy a Playstation2 and ended up getting a 360 a few years later?
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Sep 2, 2013 23:00
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TomWaitsForNoMan posted:I said to myself last year that I'd get a Wii U when Zelda came out. Then over the last few months I've really thought about it, and now I'm not going to. I was thinking of Zelda games like Ocarina, Link to the Past, and Wind Waker. But then all the recent ones have been mediocre or worse. Twilight Princess, Phantom Hourglass, Spirit Tracks, Skyward Sword, none of them has really scratched the itch that previous games did. Hell, the game I'm playing most at the moment is a remake of Ocarina of Time, and that originally came out 15 years ago. Skyward Sword on the other hand put me off with terrible motion controls (I know some people found it fine, but if a significant minority complains then it's Nintendo at fault and not the players), and went in the complete opposite direction I wanted it to go by going from a single contiguous land to multiple separated areas connected only by a pretty much empty sky. Sure Wind Waker did something similar but that at least felt like one huge world, and had other aspects that more than made up for it. The fact that Shadow of the Colossus STILL had far more interactive and engaging battles that all of Windwaker, Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword combined, really showed that Nintendo was heavily relying on extra equipment than actual gameplay design. Boss rush mode in Skyward Sword made this really apparent, very few of the bosses were interesting. And all of the one on one sword combat fights were just terrible control-wise. Very few were also that type of epic scale as well. Yes you had the One eyed medusa in Skyward sword but the extra phases were not seamless. You still had everything broken way too much into separate static stages rather than just having a fluid environment that you could use to your advantage. whaley posted:What in the world? You should try these two games out. I've played them both.
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Sep 2, 2013 23:01
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TheScott2K posted:That's right, I did mean Mario Sunshine, my mistake. It definitely applies to Wind Waker. I remember when it came out, people hated Wind Waker with a passion. People would write long diatribes (like that loving word salad I just shat out) about how much better a "mature" Zelda would be. Fast forward eight years, everyone hates Twilight Princess and Nintendo is in the delusional state that an HD remastering of WW that costs more than the original release is going to move consoles. The sad thing about Wind Waker HD is that Nintendo either lucked out or were really smart to pick an art style the holds up a lot better than other games of that era. So it's going to be harder to be impressed by an HD reworking of Wind Waker than, say, Ocarina or Majora's Mask or even Twilight Princess
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Sep 2, 2013 23:01
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Sir Ilpalazzo posted:I think most people just buy Nintendo systems to get Nintendo games. Being able to get Mario or Zelda on Sony or Microsoft systems would devalue future Nintendo systems even more in the eyes of most people. But if there are no more Nintendo home consoles, there's nothing left to be devalued  And Journey is one of those titles that pretty much defies conventional scoring. It's either something you appreciate or you don't. I enjoyed it for what it was.
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Sep 2, 2013 23:02
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WendigoJohnson posted:The fact that Shadow of the Colossus STILL had far more interactive and engaging battles that all of Windwaker, Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword combined, really showed that Nintendo was heavily relying on extra equipment than actual gameplay design. Skyward Sword is the one Zelda game I started and never finished. I got as far as Death Mountain and a hunt for buried keys or something that I got really frustrated by before a combination of bad controls and just no real driving force to the game meant I got distracted by something more fun and never went back. EDIT: I mean fundamentally Nintendo has given me absolutely no reason to care about Wii U at all. Everyone's screaming about how first party games will save it, but the only ones planned are a Mario Kart that looks like a slightly prettier version of all the other Mario Karts, a remake of a Zelda game I can play on my Wii and still looks great, and a sequel to a 3DS Mario game that seems to do nothing but add a new costume. Why on Earth should I give a poo poo at all about that? Let alone give a poo poo to the tune of £250 TomWaitsForNoMan fucked around with this message at 23:07 on Sep 2, 2013 |
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Sep 2, 2013 23:04
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WendigoJohnson posted:I've played them both. Would you say StarCraft plays similarly to Wonderful 101 also? Or that maybe Uncharted plays similarly to Devil May Cry because they both have a single character you control AdmiralViscen posted:The rest of his post indicates he meant Mario Sunshine. He's right, and it applies to Wind Waker as well. Did people really not like Sunshine much? I remember a lot of complaining about the levels without the FLUDD but I thought it was fantastic when it came out.
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Sep 2, 2013 23:04
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Sir Ilpalazzo posted:As bad as the Wii U's situation is, I think it would be even worse for Nintendo to temporarily go third-party on consoles (which would probably irreversibly change the way the public views them) or vanish from the console space until 2019. Honestly, the idea of Nintendo poking their nose into releasing titles third-party and then going back to exclusive releases on their next platform is the silliest half-measure suggestion yet. There is no coming back from putting games out on Sony or Microsoft platforms. Once people (A) automatically expect Nintendo consoles to fail, and (B) know that a failed Nintendo console means Zelda on Xbox later that gen, their console hardware arm will be permanently sunk. Third-party development is not a move they can make just sometimes, or just for a little while. It's all-in.
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Sep 2, 2013 23:05
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Sir Ilpalazzo posted:I think most people just buy Nintendo systems to get Nintendo games. Being able to get Mario or Zelda on Sony or Microsoft systems would devalue future Nintendo systems even more in the eyes of most people. I do however agree that it'd devalue the brand. Also what Supercar above me said. All-in. Now's the time to mix metaphors. Double down on the failed system while eyeing another table. Casnorf fucked around with this message at 23:11 on Sep 2, 2013 |
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Sep 2, 2013 23:08
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whaley posted:Would you say StarCraft plays similarly to Wonderful 101 also? Or that maybe Uncharted plays similarly to Devil May Cry because they both have a single character you control They're both big on unit based gameplay and command so yes it has SOME similarities to starcraft and the hallmarks of the strategy genre. They're just not 120 dollars worth of game though, they would have been better if they were sold at 20 dollar price points each. Also Uncharted is the same Genre as DMC, it's just that DMC has a far different combat system than Uncharted.
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Sep 2, 2013 23:08
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TheScott2K posted:Had Nintendo seen the writing on the wall like the other two and put in enough horsepower to run in HD and play the same multiplatform games as the 360 and PS3, making their console the only one of the three to truly differentiate itself while still being able to serve the "hardcore" gamers that have been spending money on XBox Live subscriptions and copies of Grand Theft Auto V to this day, they could be running the table on this next generation. But instead, they decided graphics didn't matter and got lucky enough to land on a fad. Sheer dumb luck. A small note simply because I find this talking point irksome, but this really isn't the silver bullet people think it is. It's probably fair to be dismissive of the Xbox brand for this reason simply because MS has really abandoned any commit they had to both their first/second party titles and indies, but Sony has a strong reputation for great games with a pretty wide array of developers who have been making content equally well crafted and even as iconic as the big Nintendo games in the best case and providing a wide array of quality if niche titles across multiple genres. Fixing hardware obsolescence or just upgrading internet services and bringing them in line with modern standards would be a wonderful start, but it's only the bare minimum of what they need to turn around the home console market in their favor. The Nintendo brand alone just isn't strong enough in the long run when there are tons of talented indie and first party dev studios besides them that can be brought to the table and they've bombed out the goodwill of most of their marquee IPs by either sitting on them or phoning in their recent releases.
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Sep 2, 2013 23:18
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whaley posted:Would you say StarCraft plays similarly to Wonderful 101 also? Or that maybe Uncharted plays similarly to Devil May Cry because they both have a single character you control I loved Sunshine and still do, but it definitely got kind of a lukewarm reaction on release. Not "negative," but it definitely got a lot of "yeah, it's pretty good but it's not groundbreaking like Mario 64." It's still my second favorite Mario game behind 64, and I'd love to see a HD re-release on the U. The Gamecube was my favorite Nintendo system though, so I'd be happy enough if my U just ended up being some kind of HD Gamecube. As for TW101, I keep seeing this reaction when it's compared to Pikmin, and I can't figure out if you're being deliberately obtuse about it or if you honestly don't see the similarities. They're similar games, they play similarly and have the same feel. It's not comparable to "third person shooter" in terms of how it strikes the average consumer because it's a very niche game-style that only suits itself to really esoteric concepts, so when the only two games that represent whatever genre it's supposed to be are two of the only first-party titles available on a console it seems kind of obvious why people draw comparisons.
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Sep 2, 2013 23:18
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whaley posted:
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Sep 2, 2013 23:18
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waffle posted:I don't think people complained about it as much as they did Wind Waker at first, but I remember people (including myself) complaining about uninspired missions, causing it to be ultimately pretty forgettable (aside from the nice art style). It was fine, but it didn't really compare to the stronger Mario titles. Yeah, I didn't hate the game, I just didn't find it at all interesting. I gave up in boredom, not dislike.
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Sep 2, 2013 23:20
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I sort of regret bringing up Super Mario Sunshine because Wind Waker does a much better job of serving that particular point. Plus, Nintendo isn't making GBS threads out an HD remake of Sunshine with the notion that it's going to sell consoles. (they are doing that with the loving 3DS Mario game, though!)
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Sep 2, 2013 23:21
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TheScott2K posted:(they are doing that with the loving 3DS Mario game, though!) What are you referring to here? 3D World isn't a remake/port.
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Sep 2, 2013 23:22
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waffle posted:I don't think people complained about it as much as they did Wind Waker at first, but I remember people (including myself) complaining about uninspired missions, causing it to be ultimately pretty forgettable (aside from the nice art style). It was fine, but it didn't really compare to the stronger Mario titles. Don't forget how half the stars were from collecting blue coins that varied by which mission you selected, and the godawful camera. Or the attempt at voiced cutscenes. It was a half finished game and the half that was there wasn't exceptional. The FLUDDless levels were the saving grace.
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Sep 2, 2013 23:26
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F Zero should have been the Nintendo version of Hydro Thunder which would have differentiated it from Mario Kart and/or Wave Race(if Wave Race is still a thing). Hydro Thunder is one of those rare perfect racing games that should have been copied by other companies, but it's strangely sits forgotten. There was the sequel that was released online, but it needs a hard copy release. An Fzero that plays with Hydro thunder's type of stages and vehicle handeling would have been golden. And it certainly would have been far more inspired than many of their recent efforts.
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Sep 2, 2013 23:26
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whaley posted:Would you say StarCraft plays similarly to Wonderful 101 also? Or that maybe Uncharted plays similarly to Devil May Cry because they both have a single character you control to be fair the comparison is being made out there, here's a review that draws some comparisons: http://www.theguardian.com/technology/gamesblog/2013/aug/19/the-wonderful-101-video-game-review I've played neither game but immediately drew the comparison.
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Sep 2, 2013 23:29
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WendigoJohnson posted:The fact that Shadow of the Colossus STILL had far more interactive and engaging battles that all of Windwaker, Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword combined, really showed that Nintendo was heavily relying on extra equipment than actual gameplay design. One thing that a Zelda game should really take from Shadow of the Colossus is having a large, diverse, and detailed world while being completely seamless. The complete lack of loading barriers from the moment you start the game up to facing the first colossus is an amazing feat of programming for the PS2, so why the Zelda games need to divide their areas into separate zones or tiny islands when they're no longer being made for the N64 is beyond me. The Wind Waker at least allows seamless travelling between islands, but the long distances of featureless ocean aren't a great substitute for riding a horse through varied, beautiful terrain. WendigoJohnson posted:I've played them both. One involves ordering small creatures around to defeat enemies and move items back to the ship, and the other is Bayonetta but with a swarm of people who can transform into gigantic weapons. E: I guess I like Sunshine because it's at least unique. We've got two Galaxies, two 3D Lands, and four New Super Mario Bros now. That Fucking Sned fucked around with this message at 23:39 on Sep 2, 2013 |
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Sep 2, 2013 23:34
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