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NotQuiteQuentin posted:It's more that Vince didn't want to break his pay scale. The higher end guys for WCW had so much guaranteed money that it would completely destroy his then existing system. Contract negotiation on renews would be hyper inflated if he wanted to adapt the payroll/downside to hiring the top WCW guys. I dunno, I would imagine dropping something in the high eight figures for seven or eight top WCW guys was unrealistic in terms of cash-flow. That's why WCW went tits up in the first place.
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Sep 4, 2013 16:55
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Wasn't it also the case that if Vince bought out the WCW guys' contracts, that he would have had to take the contracts "as-is", with pay scale, creative control clauses, and whatnot? I don't remember reading anything about that specifically, but I wouldn't be surprised if Vince decided not to take on the contracts of guys who not only had big salaries and their travel/hotel costs covered, but who could also refuse to go along with booking decisions they didn't like.
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Sep 4, 2013 17:06
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Seltzer posted:Are there any other wrestlers like this. I know they have had/probably had other gimmicks, but I've heard Hulk Hogan, Macho Man, and Scott Steiner don't have an off switch for their characters in real life. It's like they played the role so long they actually became it. I don't think Savage should really be lumped in with Hogan and Steiner. That was definitely a character. New Jack comes to mind.
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Sep 4, 2013 17:12
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I'm not convinced Steiner lacks an off switch. At the very least he definitely has more than one setting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6m_6-Ac_Sc
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Sep 4, 2013 17:16
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I don't think Jerry Lawler wrestled under any other names, but you could say his character has changed. Happy Humphrey and Haystacks Calhoun wrestled for years under their one gimmick; in Humphrey's case, at least, it's not like he could be anyone else.
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Sep 4, 2013 17:19
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ABOUT DRUGS posted:I don't understand why they needed convincing of this. They had already put several unconventional-looking wrestlers into main events. Yokozuna was WWE champion. King Mabel feuded with Diesel and broke Undertaker's face. Bob Backlund held the belt forever and later feuded with Bret Hart. Littler guys like Benoit and Guerrero were in main events for a long time. Rey has had (terrible) championship reigns and main event feuds. Mick Foley looks like poo poo and he's a huge star. Well Yokozuna and Mabel were both huge, even if they weren't ripped they were still intimidating. Backlund had cache from back in the day. Benoit had a single WHC run that lasted about 4 months and never got the belt again in 3 years, and even as champ he wasn't positioned as the top guy really, he was often below HHH and HBK. Eddie likewise had a single short reign and never really got near the belt after that. Their reigns are far closer to Punk's pretty lacklustre WHC reigns than they were to his long WWE title run or his feud with Cena, and they were never pushed the way Bryan is being pushed now. Eddie and Benoit may have been champs at the same time, but Punk and Bryan are the first pair of non-stereotypical stars to be pushed as the top two babyfaces in the company in a long time. And as far as Foley and Austin go, I think it's clear that over the last decade Vince has forgotten exactly what made the Attitude Era successful. It wasn't just swearing and tits, it was new, young, exciting stars breaking out that the people actually wanted to see. If Austin or Foley came up in 2007 instead of 1997 there's a good chance they'd have had their legs cut off too. Also thank you 
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Sep 4, 2013 17:40
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Zack_Gochuck posted:I dunno, I would imagine dropping something in the high eight figures for seven or eight top WCW guys was unrealistic in terms of cash-flow. That's why WCW went tits up in the first place. It wasn't like they were going to pay all that money out at once in a lump sum, and realistically someone like Goldberg easily pays for himself on the first PPV where you do a match against Austin.
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Sep 4, 2013 18:02
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It would be difficult to list all the ways they botched the potentially biggest angle in the history of the industry.
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Sep 4, 2013 18:07
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With the talk of wargames in the WWE thread, when is the last time a new match type was debuted in the WWE
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Sep 4, 2013 18:26
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Yuriy posted:With the talk of wargames in the WWE thread, when is the last time a new match type was debuted in the WWE Championship scramble?
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Sep 4, 2013 18:29
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Yuriy posted:With the talk of wargames in the WWE thread, when is the last time a new match type was debuted in the WWE The most obvious answer is Elimination Chamber, because most other "new" match types are re-hashing older ideas. There's Bragging Rights which is just a cross-brand Survivor Series match, Money in the Bank is a glorified TLC match, there was that dumb ladder-hammer match from TLC 2011, a "chairs" match which is just a hardcore match with a stupidly specific stipulation. The only other thing I could think of is the Beat-the-Clock challenge, and I'm not sure when they started doing those.
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Sep 4, 2013 18:32
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how soon we forget the Punjabi Prison EDIT:  at these rules. I forgot how convoluted this was. It's like they were trying to out-TNA TNA here:Wikipedia posted:The Punjabi Prison match, named after the Punjab state that The Great Khali (the match's 'founder') is billed from, consists of two large bamboo cages. The first being four sided and standing 16 feet (4.8 m) tall, while the second has eight sides and stands 20 feet (6 m) surrounding the first. Minidust fucked around with this message at 19:00 on Sep 4, 2013 |
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Sep 4, 2013 18:56
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'Medieval' and bamboo variants? I'm imagining crude iron folding chairs and ring bells made out of bamboo.
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Sep 4, 2013 19:17
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Halloween Jack posted:It was just random clips on YouTube, unfortunately. To be honest, I think the Benoit example I was thinking of was this clip, where he does a back body drop and then secures the arms. Oh man, you don't know the half of it. I'm making a huge list trying to figure out which wrestlers invented/innovated moves, and the name issues make me want throw my computer into the sun.For example, I spent forever trying to figure out who introduced the "sleeper hold" (what I'm pretty sure was a side headlock) into pro wrestling because the guy who (I think) innovated it called it the "strangle hold", which was also the term used to describe an illegal wrestling hold. The Mountain Bomb is actually a good example on something I hate. See, most pages/sites that list the moves of wrestlers will give you the technical name along with the name a wrestler gave it (ex: Triple H - Pedigree (double underhook facebuster)). Then there are some moves (like the MB) that are relatively specific in their execution but have no technical name, and this makes it near impossible to research. Here are some names I've seen for the MB: Fallaway back body drop Back Drop Fallaway Slam Overhead Fireman Carry Toss overhead backdrop Semi Fireman Carry Drop quote:By the way, it's funny how what comes around goes around, because I was looking for footage of the Mountain Bomb and couldn't find it. I saw the move in Super Fire Pro, and I had no idea where it came from. When I found out it was part of Tenzan's repertoire, I couldn't find it in any of his Ha! I couldn't find footage of it until I made that post earlier. Questions: Any old wrestlers use a rolling cutter variant a la Cody Rhodes? Seems to be a relatively recent move. I was reading Brandon Stroud's most recent Best/Worst of RAW article, and he bought up two clips of Jerry Lawler calling other wrestlers "fags". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99N62akUqM4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aWKM-UZD3E During the respective time periods of those clips, was Lawler a heel or a face?
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Sep 4, 2013 19:19
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LvK posted:'Medieval' and bamboo variants? I'm imagining crude iron folding chairs and ring bells made out of bamboo. It's a well-known fact that medieval coal miners wore bamboo gloves.
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Sep 4, 2013 19:24
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Nick_326 posted:Questions: Nick_326 posted:I was reading Brandon Stroud's most recent Best/Worst of RAW article, and he bought up two clips of Jerry Lawler calling other wrestlers "fags".
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Sep 4, 2013 19:35
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Nick_326 posted:During the respective time periods of those clips, was Lawler a heel or a face? He was a heel during the second one - it's weird in light of what his character's like this days, but Lawler was a major heel back in the nineties (especially when he got onto the commentary team). Faces would often compare him unfavorably to the Burger King mascot for cheap pops. Plus this was during Goldust's first face run, I think, when he was feuding with Brian Pillman. I'm not positive on the first one but I feel like he's almost definitely the face in it, Jimmy Valiant seemed to be cutting a heel promo and Lawler got cheers for shooting him down.
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Sep 4, 2013 19:36
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Nick_326 posted:Oh man, you don't know the half of it. Edit: Looking at your thread, I have a hard time believing Londos as the innovator of any holds since he wasn't much of an amateur wrestler. If he really did "innovate" a "hybrid" between a side headlock and a rear naked, it was probably an accidental sloppy finish. Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 19:50 on Sep 4, 2013 |
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Sep 4, 2013 19:40
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Minidust posted:how soon we forget the Punjabi Prison I somehow (by the grace of the wrestling god) have missed every Punjabi Prison match. Is it as bad as I imagine they are?
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Sep 4, 2013 19:50
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NienNunb posted:I somehow (by the grace of the wrestling god) have missed every Punjabi Prison match. Is it as bad as I imagine they are? Worse.
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Sep 4, 2013 19:52
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Nick_326 posted:I was reading Brandon Stroud's most recent Best/Worst of RAW article, and he bought up two clips of Jerry Lawler calling other wrestlers "fags". Along the same lines, I was surprised when I first saw this video featuring a face Owen Hart leading the crowd in a "human being" chant. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjWc1AFWT3g It's pretty amazing how much less taboo that term was considered not very long ago.
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Sep 4, 2013 19:53
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There were only 2 Punjabi Prison matches right? Batista/Khali and UT/Show. They're bad matches but its not like they're on the list of worst matches ever or something in my opinion.
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Sep 4, 2013 19:55
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Why did Undertaker & Show have a Punjabi Prison match anyway?
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Sep 4, 2013 19:59
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triplexpac posted:Why did Undertaker & Show have a Punjabi Prison match anyway? Khali was held off the PPV for elevated liver enzymes. It was original supposed to be Khali vs UT.
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Sep 4, 2013 20:01
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triplexpac posted:Why did Undertaker & Show have a Punjabi Prison match anyway? It was supposed to be Undertaker and Khali but Khali got nailed with "elevated liver enzymes" which is what they euphemistically called wellness suspensions for awhile.
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Sep 4, 2013 20:01
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It was at GAB 06 which I think was the PPV where 5 guys or something crazy like that all got wellness violations right before it so Khali had to drop out and Show replaced him. e: you bastards
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Sep 4, 2013 20:01
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triplexpac posted:Why did Undertaker & Show have a Punjabi Prison match anyway?
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Sep 4, 2013 20:05
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Apparently the Punjabi Prison came about when Court Bauer proposed an exploding cage match, but after it'd gone through Kevin Dunn, Vince, etc the concept became the Prison.
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Sep 4, 2013 20:10
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flashy_mcflash posted:Apparently the Punjabi Prison came about when Court Bauer proposed an exploding cage match, but after it'd gone through Kevin Dunn, Vince, etc the concept became the Prison. Haha that's right, I forgot all about that.
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Sep 4, 2013 20:13
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Minidust posted:Along these lines, I've always wanted to see a Casket Match that just had two guys unrelated to the gimmick. Like I understand WHY it's been tied to the Undertaker or Kane in every instance, but it'd be neat to see two smaller guys taking that match and doing some unconventional spots with it. Maybe Bray Wyatt could get away with it, but otherwise it would be a weird "I want to murder you" subtext.
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Sep 4, 2013 20:13
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triplexpac posted:Haha that's right, I forgot all about that. When you look at that ridiculous setup it becomes abundantly clear that it's the product of a gigantic game of broken telephone. "oh so the bars explode? Sure, we can put spikes at the top!"
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Sep 4, 2013 20:17
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Minidust posted:Along these lines, I've always wanted to see a Casket Match that just had two guys unrelated to the gimmick. Like I understand WHY it's been tied to the Undertaker or Kane in every instance, but it'd be neat to see two smaller guys taking that match and doing some unconventional spots with it. I took a look, and I found out that there have been a few non-Taker-related casket matches in TNA. D-Lo Brown and Sonny Siaki had a casket match and Abyss has been in a few, against Sabu, Pope and at least Sting (though that was a "Last Rites" match where the coffin was called a "death bed" for some reason). Does anyone know of others?
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Sep 4, 2013 20:29
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Is it true that WWF considered making Crush the top face in 1992, before running with Bret Hart instead? I had heard this back then on a local wrestling radio show, but I have no idea if those claims have been substantiated over the years. If it's true, then drat, they'd probably be out of business if they had gone with Crush. Without Bret as a main eventer you don't have the pivotal feud with Stone Cold. Not to mention, the main event feuds of Crush vs. Early '90s Heels would be dire.
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Sep 4, 2013 20:31
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oldpainless posted:There were only 2 Punjabi Prison matches right? Batista/Khali and UT/Show. They're bad matches but its not like they're on the list of worst matches ever or something in my opinion. I haven't seen either of them either but considering there's only been two I really want to. Wasn't the reason there were only ever two was because nobody told the guys going in that the bamboo stalks were actually airbrushed metal, so they actually got really hosed up slamming each other into them until they caught on?
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Sep 4, 2013 20:31
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Suleman posted:I took a look, and I found out that there have been a few non-Taker-related casket matches in TNA. D-Lo Brown and Sonny Siaki had a casket match and Abyss has been in a few, against Sabu, Pope and at least Sting (though that was a "Last Rites" match where the coffin was called a "death bed" for some reason). Does anyone know of others? I remember Wrestling Society X doing something with Vampiro and a casket
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Sep 4, 2013 20:38
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Minidust posted:Is it true that WWF considered making Crush the top face in 1992, before running with Bret Hart instead? I had heard this back then on a local wrestling radio show, but I have no idea if those claims have been substantiated over the years. If you watch WWE at that time (we were watching a Survivor Series from that time in cocotube the other day) it seems clear they were going to push him to the moon as a heel, and I guess they did since he had that program with Savage. It'd make sense that they'd look to turn him eventually if that had taken off and Bret/Owen didn't heat up as much as it did.
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Sep 4, 2013 20:41
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Minidust posted:
 I've read this twice and still don't understand it. I'm going to have to watch one to sate my morbid curiosity.
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Sep 4, 2013 20:56
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Sydney Bottocks posted:Wasn't it also the case that if Vince bought out the WCW guys' contracts, that he would have had to take the contracts "as-is", with pay scale, creative control clauses, and whatnot? I don't remember reading anything about that specifically, but I wouldn't be surprised if Vince decided not to take on the contracts of guys who not only had big salaries and their travel/hotel costs covered, but who could also refuse to go along with booking decisions they didn't like. If he took on the contracts, yes, but he was never going to take on the contracts. Here's the deal with WCW contracts: Everyone in WCW was on guaranteed deals. This is different than the WWF's downside guarantee. A downside guarantee means no matter what (unless you are fired) you will make X, but if you wrestle enough you can earn more. WCW's contracts were flat guarantees, you would make X unless you had it written into your contract you'd make more from the wrestling end. When Vince bought WCW he only assumed 25 low and midcard contracts. Everyone above the pay level of Lance Storm's contract was not assumed. So guys like Buff Bagwell, Booker T and up were not hired in the first round. It was then up to Time Warner to offer them buy outs for less than their guaranteed money, thus giving them the chance to sign with WWE for a lower downside guarantee but the chance to make significantly more money. Time Warner low balled several big name talents and the money Vince was offering wouldn't be worth going on the road instead of just sitting at home for millions. Even the small contracts Vince absorbed had 90 day cycles built into them and Vince was able to just end those after 90 days and sign the talent to a WWE style contract.
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Sep 4, 2013 20:58
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Why were so many people seemingly desperate to jump to the WWF when they took the upper hand but before things became truly dire for WCW if WCW's contracts were so generous?
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Sep 4, 2013 21:11
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Thauros posted:Why were so many people seemingly desperate to jump to the WWF when they took the upper hand but before things became truly dire for WCW if WCW's contracts were so generous? You could make more money in the WWF if you wanted to work for it, with a few exceptions. Big Show got a way better deal from Vince, and Jericho knew there was more opportunity there too. However, if you are Bill Goldberg would you want to give up 3 million dollars per year for several years when you didn't have to do a thing for it? Let's say Vince offers him a million downside (and he probably wouldn't go that high.) What happens if you get injured and miss 9 months? You will lose out on millions. But if you were a midcard geek in WCW with some talent, you could make big bucks with Vince if he pushed you.
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Sep 4, 2013 21:18
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