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Baron Bifford posted:I'm pretty sure East-Meg is in Russia. It was, until after the Apocalypse War. Which is Riso's point - if the south sectors aren't there, it must be post-AW.
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Sep 3, 2013 12:49
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That's silly. It's better to assume the movie has it's own continuity. Besides if the Apocalypse War had happened as it did in the comics then Dredd and Anderson would have already met.
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Sep 3, 2013 12:55
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marktheando posted:That's silly. It's better to assume the movie has it's own continuity. Which is what I went on to say. Bifford just didn't get that far without losing the thread.
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Sep 3, 2013 13:14
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Jedit posted:Which is what I went on to say. Bifford just didn't get that far without losing the thread. Oh absolutely, I was agreeing with you.
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Sep 3, 2013 14:28
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In the beginning of the film Ma-ma throws a guy off a balcony to show that her gang runs things. Later in the film Dredd throws one of her gang members over a balcony as a show of force. Now why did Dredd throw the guy over the balcony? He could have shot him or gassed him or cuffed him whatever. He actually walks the guy from the shadows of the hallway all the way to the edge before throwing him off.. Dredd literally uses a gang style execution to send Ma-Ma a message. Why else have this scene except to show Dredd and the law are just to sides of the same coin?
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Sep 4, 2013 17:37
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PerfectTommy posted:Why else have this scene except to show Dredd and the law are just to sides of the same coin? Did you mean 'the Judges and the gangs'? It could be interpreted that way, but it really doesn't have to be. From a story standpoint the act makes sense as a really effective way of intimidating his enemies, who a moment ago thought they obliterated him. It's an effective use of showmanship that sends a very clear message. From a movie making standpoint it was simply a ridiculously awesome moment to capture on screen.
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Sep 4, 2013 17:50
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PerfectTommy posted:Why else have this scene except to show Dredd and the law are just to sides of the same coin?
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Sep 4, 2013 18:00
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Yeah i meant the judges and gangs. "It's an effective use of showmanship that sends a very clear message." That is my point. Dredd (the Law) is not above using violent gang tactics. He could have walked out with the guy cuffed or just shot him in front of Ma-Ma but instead uses the exact same tactic she did to show his power. I don't think it was just to be visually awesome (it was) but to show that the Law is just as capable of using horrific violence as the gangs.
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Sep 4, 2013 18:02
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Can't really argue with that, but what that scene really makes you ask is how the situation could have happened in the first place. What kind of city is MC1 that criminal gangs have the balls to openly fight lawmen? It's like the slums of Rio or the bad parts of Colombia. See, my point is that the movie drops a lot of hints like this that MC1 is a hosed-up place, but it doesn't focus on the flaws in order to mock them. There are fascist/dystopic overtones but it's not fiercely political and mocking like Dr Strangelove or Team America: World Police, which are the movies that I think of when somebody says "political satire". I'm not saying that there is no point to the dystopia. This movie features a gang of drug-dealers who are powerful and bold enough to openly attack lawmen. Such a thing is unthinkable in present-day New York, which is today one of the safest big cities in America. You are better off using a setting where such an incident makes sense. You could set in a dangerous foreign city like Jakarta (see The Raid), or you could set it in a dystopian future America. I think Garland found that MC1 was a good setting for this Die Hard knockoff script he was working on. Baron Bifford fucked around with this message at 18:36 on Sep 4, 2013 |
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Sep 4, 2013 18:18
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Baron Bifford posted:I think Garland found that MC1 was a good setting for this Die Hard knockoff script he was working on. That is completely incorrect, Garland was working on a Dredd script from the start. He's talked about how at first he did a Dark Judges story but thought it was too weird and out there for a first movie and so came up with the story we have now.
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Sep 4, 2013 18:42
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OK then. But that's how it felt like to me. It's baffling that, in this age of very successful superhero flicks, he would shy away from the Dark Judges because they are too weird. Baron Bifford fucked around with this message at 18:47 on Sep 4, 2013 |
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Sep 4, 2013 18:44
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"What kind of city is MC1 that criminal gangs have the balls to openly fight lawmen?" It is the kind of city where police can only respond to 6% of crime and are just a violent as the criminals. "See, my point is that the movie drops a lot of hints like this that MC1 is a hosed-up place" The movie show rioting in the streets, dead being recycled, hopeless drug addiction, a homeless man being arrested for being homeless and the best lawman using (legal) torture and a gang style execution. This movie is only dropping hints?
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Sep 4, 2013 18:49
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Baron Bifford posted:Can't really argue with that, but what that scene really makes you ask is how the situation could have happened in the first place. What kind of city is MC1 that criminal gangs have the balls to openly fight lawmen? It's like the slums of Rio or the bad parts of Colombia. I dunno man, I'm not usually one to pile on but the more you post the more it seems like you just don't understand satire. Team America: World Police is what you think of when somebody says political satire? It gets a whoooole lot more subtle than that, so if thats your measuring stick I assume you're probably missing a lot of satire in a lot of different movies.
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Sep 4, 2013 18:49
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Baron Bifford posted:OK then. But that's how it felt like to me. But Dredd is not a superhero. He's just a cop, however skilled he may be. Supervillains work because superheroes are pitted against them, but the Dark Judges would be a poor introduction to Dredd's world because we haven't yet seen the parallels to his fascism.
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Sep 4, 2013 18:53
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Yes saving the Dark Judges for a sequel is a very obvious thing to do, since they are a parody of the judges it makes sense to introduce the judges beforehand.
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Sep 4, 2013 18:59
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Basebf555 posted:I dunno man, I'm not usually one to pile on but the more you post the more it seems like you just don't understand satire. Team America: World Police is what you think of when somebody says political satire? It gets a whoooole lot more subtle than that, so if thats your measuring stick I assume you're probably missing a lot of satire in a lot of different movies. Jedit posted:But Dredd is not a superhero. He's just a cop, however skilled he may be.
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Sep 4, 2013 19:13
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Baron Bifford posted:The Dredd comics are not at all subtle with their satire; they hit you over the head with it. I mean in general. All satire isn't Team America, sometimes the satirical elements are in other places besides dialogue and obvious gags. You keep saying that in Dredd they allude to all these things but never focus on them, but thats the whole idea. The movie is very much enjoyable from a action thrillride perspective, you don't HAVE to pay that much attention to the satire if you don't want to, but its obviously there if you chose to look. Thats what makes it good to a lot of people.
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Sep 4, 2013 19:18
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Bad guys throw a guy off a balcony, murdering him. Good guy throws a guy off a balcony, enforcing the law. Subtle.
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Sep 4, 2013 19:23
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PerfectTommy posted:Bad guys throw a guy off a balcony, murdering him. I think its subtle enough(its not like these two scenes are back to back) that if you don't want to pay attention to it you don't have to. I mean we're comparing it to Team America here, its all relative.
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Sep 4, 2013 19:27
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Baron Bifford posted:The Dredd comics are not at all subtle with their satire; they hit you over the head with it. It's almost like the movie is a subtle satire of modern fascism while the comics are a much more outrageous parody of Dirty Harry and similar media. quote:Dredd is not "just a cop", he is a very outrageous character who fights outrageous villains. Dredd is just a cop in a hosed up dystopian future. Any Judge could do what he does, he's just the best at it. This is explicitly stated and reiterated frequently in the comics and is implicit in the movie. Comic book =/= Superhero
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Sep 4, 2013 19:29
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Dredd doesn't wear a cape and he actually hates superheroes (see the crossover with Batman), but he's still a very outlandish character. He's not just a cop, he's judge, jury and executioner. His partner is a telepath. His firearm packs the firepower of a modern day platoon. He's got guns built into his patrol bike.
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Sep 4, 2013 19:34
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PerfectTommy posted:Bad guys throw a guy off a balcony, murdering him. The first makes it clear that these are the bad guys to begin with. The second makes people fistpump. Yeah, actually I'd say it's pretty subtle.
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Sep 4, 2013 19:41
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Baron Bifford posted:Dredd doesn't wear a cape and he actually hates superheroes (see the crossover with Batman), but he's still a very outlandish character. He's not just a cop, he's judge, jury and executioner. His partner is a telepath. His firearm packs the firepower of a modern day platoon. He's got guns built into his patrol bike. All the things you describe are true of all Judges in Dredds world. They are an extension of the state's will, they perform the function of cops but to the extreme because Dredd's world is an extreme one. The whole point of superheroes is that they work outside the system, and the themes in most of those movies is what conficts would come up as a result. Judges are a primary part of the system itself, they are the cops. Basebf555 fucked around with this message at 19:51 on Sep 4, 2013 |
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Sep 4, 2013 19:45
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I guess it just seemed obvious to me. Ma-ma throws a guy to send a message. Dredd mirrors this action. Ma-Ma gets on the intercom to tell Peach trees to do as she says or be punished. Dredd uses the intercom to deliver the same message.
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Sep 4, 2013 19:47
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As an aside, Team America is completely toothless as satire.
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Sep 4, 2013 20:51
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I don't want to kick up more dust, but I always thought judges were a reflection of their reality, which is why Dredd in particular mirrors Ma-Ma. He's about eye-for-an-eye retaliation. In a vacuum, him killing Ma-Ma how she killed the dealers is on equal level, but Dredd doesn't do that without knowing she had done that earlier and sending everyone on the block to kill him. It was a cruel punishment to show her what she put other people through. In addition, it was reckless and he dropped the pretenses of serving and protecting the citizens of MC1 (which was why Anderson wanted to go to Peach Trees) pretty quickly for the purposes of what, in his mind, was justice. And that's where the satire of Dredd comes from. It wasn't justice. It was equal cruelty for cruelty and this, in Judge Dredd's mind, is fair. It's impossible, also, for even the metonymic stand-in for law enforcement in the Dredd world to not take the situation personally, even though Ma-Ma would've done the same thing regardless of who the judge was. This isn't even that far from current police officers and that's why I see it as a condemnation of police authority and expecting too much from police officers themselves.
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Sep 4, 2013 20:57
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The broken bones posted:In addition, it was reckless and he dropped the pretenses of serving and protecting the citizens of MC1 (which was why Anderson wanted to go to Peach Trees) pretty quickly for the purposes of what, in his mind, was justice. In your opinion, does the film as a whole absolve Anderson? Or is it just that her motives started out cleaner? I think the morality of her actions is actually a lot more interesting than those of Dredd himself (in fact, I think his most important function in the film is to condemn her to the audience by approving of her to the head Judge), which is where most of the fun of the movie is for me. Condemning fascists is easy. Condemning liberal complicity in fascism even while it wrings its hands and talks about doing the right thing is a lot ballsier. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 21:16 on Sep 4, 2013 |
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Sep 4, 2013 21:14
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:In your opinion, does the film as a whole absolve Anderson? Or is it just that her motives started out cleaner? I feel like the differences between Anderson's motives and Dredd's are the main point of her being in the movie. She seems to have been thrown into this career without fully grasping how hosed up the system is that she is participating in, and obviously she learns some hard lessons during the movie. But she truly does want to help people, and make MC1 a better place. Thats a lot different from Dredd who values justice above all else, nevermind that his sense of justice is incredibly warped. It changes how I judge her actions because in a lot of ways she's really only guilty of ignorance, whereas Dredd knows full well what a "drug bust" in MC1 entails and what he will do(and presumably had done many times)to exact justice.
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Sep 4, 2013 21:25
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The broken bones posted:I don't want to kick up more dust, but I always thought judges were a reflection of their reality, which is why Dredd in particular mirrors Ma-Ma. He's about eye-for-an-eye retaliation. In a vacuum, him killing Ma-Ma how she killed the dealers is on equal level, but Dredd doesn't do that without knowing she had done that earlier and sending everyone on the block to kill him. It was a cruel punishment to show her what she put other people through. Basebf555 posted:It changes how I judge her actions because in a lot of ways she's really only guilty of ignorance, whereas Dredd knows full well what a "drug bust" in MC1 entails and what he will do(and presumably had done many times)to exact justice. Baron Bifford fucked around with this message at 21:40 on Sep 4, 2013 |
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Sep 4, 2013 21:30
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“A German officer visited Picasso in his Paris studio during the Second World War. There he saw Guernica and, shocked at the modernist "chaos" of the painting, asked Picasso: "Did you do this?" Picasso calmly replied: "No, you did this!"” ― Slavoj Žižek, Violence: Six Sideways Reflections
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Sep 4, 2013 21:38
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Throwing the guy off the balcony was not self defense. Telling Anderson to finish off the wounded man was not self defense. Torturing a cuffed perp physically and mentally was not self defense. Hitting Ma-Ma with slo-mo and throwing her through a window was not self defense. They are however all legal as long as its Dredd doing it.
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Sep 4, 2013 21:43
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Baron Bifford posted:Can't really argue with that, but what that scene really makes you ask is how the situation could have happened in the first place. What kind of city is MC1 that criminal gangs have the balls to openly fight lawmen? It's like the slums of Rio or the bad parts of Colombia. I just saw Dredd for the first time this past weekend so forgive me if I'm re-treading ground from the last couple hundred pages, but the impression that I got from it is that they were taking the War on Drugs to its logical conclusion, being hardly distinguishable from an actual war. The fact that the drug being peddled in the movie doesn't seem to have any actual harmful effects but possessing it is apparently grounds for being shot in the face contributes to this notion. And sure, he might have singlehandedly wiped out the top gang in this one building, but as we saw at the beginning of the movie there's just three other gangs waiting to fill the gap, and as we saw at the end there are countless other giant buildings just like that one, which seemed to highlight the ultimate futility of his actions. raditts fucked around with this message at 21:53 on Sep 4, 2013 |
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Sep 4, 2013 21:49
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Basebf555 posted:I feel like the differences between Anderson's motives and Dredd's are the main point of her being in the movie. She seems to have been thrown into this career without fully grasping how hosed up the system is that she is participating in, and obviously she learns some hard lessons during the movie. But she truly does want to help people, and make MC1 a better place. Thats a lot different from Dredd who values justice above all else, nevermind that his sense of justice is incredibly warped. It changes how I judge her actions because in a lot of ways she's really only guilty of ignorance, whereas Dredd knows full well what a "drug bust" in MC1 entails and what he will do(and presumably had done many times)to exact justice. So what do you make of the scene where she tortures a perp (and incidentally, reveals in the process that she has a more sadistic and cruelly imaginative mind than a violent criminal?) That question is not even a little bit rhetorical, by the way. A scene where a white woman is threatened with (imaginary/symbolic!) sexual violence from a black man and then violates him instead is so densely loaded I don't even know where to begin.
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Sep 4, 2013 21:50
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Baron Bifford posted:You don't want to kick up more dust, but you're bringing this argument full circle, making a point that I've been arguing tirelessly (but, sadly, tiresome for everyone else) that most of Dredd's actions in Peach Trees was self-defense, a reaction to an extreme situation, and not an unambiguous example of the absurdity of Mega-City justice. I suggest you read the past 10 pages of posts, it'll knock your socks off. This isn't an extreme situation for Dredd, that's the thing. Dude fights Aliens for the first time and just gets back to work afterwards after being facehugged so Peach Trees ain't nothing. All the crossovers are canon, brilliantly in my opinion, and so the fact that this is all normal for Dredd and MC1 is exactly why this movie is an example of the absurdity of Mega-City justice: it's not even that big a deal for him, which the movie notes frequently: 'Drug bust...perps were uncooperative'. They can only respond to 6% of crimes, and this is what happens if you're 'lucky' enough to get a Judge response. Even then, there's a significant chance the Judge dies (think how many Judges die in this film, even if they are corrupt - which is another chance you take). Add in numerous civilian casualties throughout and I think that it is clear that any notion of justice and order is absurd in MC1.
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Sep 4, 2013 21:51
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:In your opinion, does the film as a whole absolve Anderson? Or is it just that her motives started out cleaner? No, not at all. Anderson doesn't even think she's absolved and I think that's partly why she handed in her badge (though failing the test was a big part too). Yes to the second question. She very clearly had to do some things she wouldn't have done at the start (that probably would've gotten her killed if she didn't). Her turning in her badge is the complicity you're talking about, but I don't think it's necessarily liberal. There are loads of people within the movie who don't want to be any part of the fight and are therefore implicitly consenting. Baron Bifford posted:You don't want to kick up more dust, but you're bringing this argument full circle, etc. etc. I did, I was trying to bridge the gap between your argument and theirs. You seem pretty hard-headed about this self-defense thing. And about that, by law (our law and MC1 law), you're technically correct. Dredd still murders people with extreme prejudice, though. That's why people are saying the system is broken. The broken bones fucked around with this message at 22:10 on Sep 4, 2013 |
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Sep 4, 2013 22:07
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Dredd uses the intercom as a ruse. Bad guys show up and realize Dredd isn't there. Dredd use this this opportunity to set them on fire in self defense.
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Sep 4, 2013 22:12
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The broken bones posted:And about that, by law (our law and MC1 law), you're technically correct. Dredd still murders people with extreme prejudice, though. That's why people are saying the system is broken. PerfectTommy posted:Dredd uses the intercom as a ruse. Bad guys show up and realize Dredd isn't there. Dredd use this this opportunity to set them on fire in self defense.
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Sep 4, 2013 22:14
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They also didn't know where he was.
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Sep 4, 2013 22:15
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As Bifford already commented earlier the entire sequence of Dredd corralling the citizens into a small confined space and showering them with white phosphorus (including a fairly explicit visual reference to well known footage) isn't at all coincidental in light of what the film is portraying.
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Sep 4, 2013 22:15
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PerfectTommy posted:They also didn't know where he was.
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Sep 4, 2013 22:20
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