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I think by "horribly timed," Takoluka meant just the fact that it came out pretty close to Mighty No.9, which is stealing a lot of attention in Kickstarter at the moment. Though, as niche and as loyal the fanbase for Mega Man is, Shantae is even more niche, with a smaller, but just as loyal fanbase. I'm sure the people who care about it will back it.
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Sep 7, 2013 03:36
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Yeah, even though I love WayForward and Contra 4, Double Dragon Neon, Ducktales Remastered, and all that poo poo, I downloaded Shantae 2 for my 3DS and got stuck and had no loving clue what to do and went off to play something else.
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Sep 7, 2013 03:59
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Wayforward can also be really inconsistent with the stuff they make. Double Dragon Neon was really good, but the Adventure Time game was average, and the Aliens game they made sucks.
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Sep 7, 2013 04:01
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blackguy32 posted:Wayforward can also be really inconsistent with the stuff they make. Double Dragon Neon was really good, but the Adventure Time game was average, and the Aliens game they made sucks. Yeah, see I never played those two. I think I've only played the good games people recommend.
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Sep 7, 2013 04:03
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Gammatron 64 posted:Yeah, even though I love WayForward and Contra 4, Double Dragon Neon, Ducktales Remastered, and all that poo poo, I downloaded Shantae 2 for my 3DS and got stuck and had no loving clue what to do and went off to play something else. Shantae 2 is really terrible compared to the first one. Way too linear without the neat mechanics, exploration, or minigames of the first one. I hope that 3 gets released before the kickstarter is over because that's what's going to determine whether or not I really want to help fund it. The rest of Wayforward's library is full of all sorts of good, terrible, licensed ip, and neat ideas that don't really pan out. Xtreme Sports was really good and is what convinced me to buy the first Shantae. Sigma Star Saga had some neat ideas, but the shmup gameplay was too dull and dragged the whole thing down. Mighty Switch Force was a little too short, it's sort of like a puzzle version of Megaman's gameplay. A sequel came out, but I haven't played it or heard either way on its quality. On the other hand, in terms of Inafune, I don't really doubt that he and his will be able to deliver a fun game experience. I think the major thing to watch out for is community involvement, having the minimum value for voting be a higher donation tier is interesting to say the least.
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Sep 7, 2013 04:21
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Potsticker posted:On the other hand, in terms of Inafune, I don't really doubt that he and his will be able to deliver a fun game experience. I think the major thing to watch out for is community involvement, having the minimum value for voting be a higher donation tier is interesting to say the least. I think that's my main worry about the project because at that price level you'll only get the hardcore fans. And if the recent fangames that were released in the past few months are any indication, most hardcore fans don't know what makes a Mega Man game good.
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Sep 7, 2013 04:26
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Srice posted:I think that's my main worry about the project because at that price level you'll only get the hardcore fans. And if the recent fangames that were released in the past few months are any indication, most hardcore fans don't know what makes a Mega Man game good. The beacon of hope is the polls that Megaman Legends 3 had. Those seemed to be structured well for community involvement without putting too much of what's really important in the hands of fans.
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Sep 7, 2013 04:29
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Srice posted:I think that's my main worry about the project because at that price level you'll only get the hardcore fans. And if the recent fangames that were released in the past few months are any indication, most hardcore fans don't know what makes a Mega Man game good. Yeah, if there's one thing that's become apparent, it's that "hardcore" Megaman fans have no idea how to design a game period. There are people that complain that sliding ruins speed runs, because that's totally a thing that matters to everyone.
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Sep 7, 2013 04:40
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Shantae kickstarter has like 180k in 1 day, they'll be fine.
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Sep 7, 2013 04:42
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If either of you guys is referring to Mega Man Unlimited, sorry but that game is loving great and also basically feels tailored for speedrunning. 
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Sep 7, 2013 08:25
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While I had a lot of fun with Mega Man Unlimited (version 1.1, didn't play the original release), I completely understand how, at the very least, the longer stages combined with a heavy reliance on instant death would turn people off. I'm one of those people that doesn't miss the slide or charge shot when they're not available (and 9 is my favorite of the original series), but I certainly don't mind their inclusion. I definitely took advantage of them in my playthroughs of 4 and 5 this week.
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Sep 7, 2013 09:24
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Zecks posted:If either of you guys is referring to Mega Man Unlimited, sorry but that game is loving great and also basically feels tailored for speedrunning. I know this thread has had an extra live debate quite a while back already, but whatever. Unlimited again reminded me why they should be completely eradicated from games period, as a completely useless relic of the past, and when I tried to play Super Mario Sunshine again after a long break, that cemented my opinion. The gist is: I play worse under pressure. It is zero fun to me when I get nervous because the next death means I have to replay everything again. And as I play these games for fun, after a certain point I just say gently caress it and play something else. That was especially the case with Sunshine where I had to first make my way to (of course) one of the stages where you don't have the water gun, but that way took me a quarter of an hour because I wasn't used to the controls after my long break, but it would have been tedious no matter what. Even five minutes would have been far too long. Then I have two lives, three attempts, and whoops that was it back to the very start. I probably won't finish Sunshine. I also probably won't finish Unlimited. I can totally make it to the bosses, I am sure of it; I've reached two already. Then, because they are Mega Man bosses and I've never seen them before, they will obliterate me. Make it in two attempts, probably even less because of the instant-death brimming stages? Very doubtful. Especially under pressure. Back to the start. New pressure. Forgot all I knew about the boss because it takes me another 20 minutes to get to him again. Not fun, not fun, not fun. Frustrating, a big turn-off, and a crying shame. Because Unlimited is really well-designed and polished in a lot of places (I, of course, haven't seen all). It has many, many clever ideas, neat little details, sensible enemy placement and gimmicks that enhance gameplay without annoying. Then you graze the side of a spike and you have to revisit all these clever ideas for the fifth time. I'm sorry guys, save your replay value for time attack or hard mode or other challenges. If your game is good enough, I'll play these first parts gladly again on my own, but all extra lives do is force me to constantly revisit poo poo I know I can beat while keeping me from getting good at the stuff I can't yet.
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Sep 7, 2013 09:59
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Screaming Idiot posted:Yeah, if there's one thing that's become apparent, it's that "hardcore" Megaman fans have no idea how to design a game period. There are people that complain that sliding ruins speed runs, because that's totally a thing that matters to everyone.
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Sep 7, 2013 10:30
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quakster posted:Who are these people because speed runs are literally the only reason to ever slide at all.
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Sep 7, 2013 11:16
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Simply Simon posted:I can't even begin to parse this sentence. "Please explain who these people are. I need to know who they are, because their opinion is wrong- speed runs are the only reason for the player to slide in the first place."
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Sep 7, 2013 11:21
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quakster posted:Who are these people because speed runs are literally the only reason to ever slide at all. gently caress you Slide under bullets & poo poo everydayyyyyyyyy~~~~
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Sep 7, 2013 11:24
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I've beaten Unlimited a few times; I can tell it's a bitch, but I don't know about completely apeshit hard. Certainly learning how to abuse weapons helps, along with killing Nail Man first for the Rush Jet. Easy Mode helps with the jumps, but I don't know. The controls feel tight, and some practice made me way better at the game. I'll admit it's got some problems, but while my first couple of hours were bashing my head against the game, I don't feel it's too cheap anymore. Not as much as I initially thought at least. Definitely abuse boss weapons, though.
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Sep 7, 2013 11:27
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I like how the slide feels and functions, but because most non-lovely Megaman levels have very few long stretches of flat ground and there's only a couple enemies the slide lets you dodge, its only real utility most of the time is getting from point A to point B slightly faster. There's the occasional obstacle like the ceiling crushers in Dust Man's stage where the slide can save your rear end but most of the time it's completely superfluous.
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Sep 7, 2013 11:30
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Sliding under bosses when they jump feels good, too.
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Sep 7, 2013 11:37
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True. I always forget that the ability to get a boost of additional horizontal speed/change hitbox orientation at will makes robot masters more fun to fight because I tend to just focus on abusing their weaknesses. Let's add "a must for proper buster dueling" to the list.
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Sep 7, 2013 11:45
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quakster posted:I like how the slide feels and functions, but because most non-lovely Megaman levels have very few long stretches of flat ground and there's only a couple enemies the slide lets you dodge, its only real utility most of the time is getting from point A to point B slightly faster. But apart from that, the slide has countless little uses, and its inclusion vastly improves level design because now they can have sections that would have been "wait for the obstacle to pass and walk under with the right timing" in pre-slide games turn into "just slide, don't stop". Jumps that once were "edge forward until you're absolutely sure" are no simple slide-jumps. The games suddenly can handle having more than two enemies on screen at once, because you're far more mobile in your dodging; more small and agile enemies, less big bullet sponges. These you can now actually dodge reliably, not like the nightmare of trying to dodge the AT-STs in MM2. Reliant dodging also means that gameplay flow doesn't come to a screeching halt while you micromanage button-mashing the Big Eye while goading it into a jump pattern you need for 10 seconds. Boss fights become less of a pattern learning and manipulation game, you can have purely reflex-based fights now, with irregular behaviour both from boss and bullets, because you as player now have far more freedom. The fights don't have to be that way, mind, but it's good that they can. All of that doesn't even scratch the surface of design elements that are only possible because you have the slide; low corridors with goodies, but spikes at the end, slide funnels that put you in the way of danger so you have to react quickly, et cetera. The slide is far, far more than just a speed increase.
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Sep 7, 2013 11:52
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Unfortunately I'm old and no longer as passionate about videogames as you are, Simon. 20 years of videogames. 20 years since playing MM2. 
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Sep 7, 2013 11:56
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quakster posted:Unfortunately I'm old and no longer as passionate about videogames as you are, Simon. 20 years of videogames. 20 years since playing MM2.  . Have you heard about the newest fad, the dash?
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Sep 7, 2013 11:58
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I even managed to kill Sigma in X3 once and forgot the game didn't end there and got autoscrolled to death and gently caress X-style E-tanks. gently caress 'em. But my actual point was that you don't need to prefer slideless Classic to enjoy it. It might feel like a step backwards in 9 & 10 but at least they're not "and Bass". (gently caress Dynamo Man. What a pile of garbage.) quakster fucked around with this message at 12:10 on Sep 7, 2013 |
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Sep 7, 2013 12:06
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We can definitely agree that MM&Bass is a steaming pile of garbage.
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Sep 7, 2013 12:34
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Megaman and Bass had so much potential to be good, and yet it failed on every account. It didn't even have good music, which is usually the saving grace in any bad Megaman (and Sonic) game!quakster posted:Unfortunately I'm old and no longer as passionate about videogames as you are, Simon. 20 years of videogames. 20 years since playing MM2. You're certainly passionate enough about them to argue with people over opinions, just saying. It's one thing to disagree with someone, it's another to say that someone is objectively wrong for liking or disliking something.
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Sep 7, 2013 13:32
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Simply Simon posted:We can definitely agree that MM&Bass is a steaming pile of garbage. I don't agree. I played the SNES one though. I liked the graphics, the weapons, the the music, the bosses, and the collectables. Sue me.
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Sep 7, 2013 13:47
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Shinku ABOOKEN posted:I don't agree. I played the SNES one though. I may be biased from the GBA version; however, I think the game has major level design faults (mostly regarding, again, difficulty) which are not a screen size problem. I realize that if you enjoy that kind of challenge (and maybe also Unlimited then, though that had far better level design imho), MM&Bass may be the game for you. It's not like it's without redeeming factors; it has replayability in the two characters, tons of hidden stuff (I love that!), fun weapons, I do like some of the music, it looks neat and of course plays well (it's a Mega Man game). I just never have fun playing it for various little reasons. A far cry from, say, X7 (now I want to see someone defend THAT).
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Sep 7, 2013 13:55
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The music is pretty ok. Here's some Genesis rearrangements: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxxTVPXj5_g (this song somehow became one of my favorite MM tunes) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RL-Jab95tJo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmKtVdo0dpc
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Sep 7, 2013 13:59
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Simply Simon posted:A far cry from, say, X7 (now I want to see someone defend THAT). The graphics were pretty good and Axl's opening cinema was kinda badass? Yeah, I got nothin'. Shinku ABOOKEN posted:I don't agree. I played the SNES one though. And it's those things that gave it so much potential! A lot of people don't care for the MM8 art style, but it's still impressive that they managed to keep the same quality on a 16-bit system. The bosses were pretty cool, and even Tenguman and Astroman managed to stay somewhat fresh with their remixed abilities. But the execution of all these aspects is just plain shameful, even more so on the GBA. I got the game for free from a friend of mine and it took me a week to finish it out of sheer disinterest -- playing as Megaman is an exercise in frustration, and that was a huge downside for me. Screaming Idiot fucked around with this message at 14:14 on Sep 7, 2013 |
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Sep 7, 2013 14:11
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Simon and Quakster are right when it comes to Mega Man & Bass. I think all the classic games from 1-10 are worth playing, and if Mega Man 6, 7 and 8 are the worst games in said series (and a rather like 6 and 7 a lot, in spite of popular opinion) then it's a drat fine series because none of those games are bad. The classic series has a drat fine pedigree, with Mega Man & Bass and the first two Game Boy games being its sole fuckups, as long as you don't start going into obscure spin-off territory. If only the rest of the Mega Man series had such consistent quality.
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Sep 7, 2013 17:01
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I just picked up the Megaman Zero Collection in preparation for a transcontinental flight. I haven't played any of the Zero games except 1, which I played on a friend's afterburner'ed GBA back when it first came out.  Anything I should know going in? Is easy mode like the MM10 easy mode, where it basically removes all challenge from the game? I don't have an instruction manual, and I won't have the internet, so anything helps.  EDIT: looking at the wikipedia page for the MMZ series: quote:A new addition to the franchise is the presence of elemental weapons; in every game except Zero 4, Zero gains three element chips that can be attached to any of his weapons. Doing so adds elemental effects to his attacks and allows him to use them to attack bosses' weak points for massive damage. Hell yes, 8 year old internet memes.
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Sep 7, 2013 17:03
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Easy Mode is indeed piss-easy. That being said, the normal game is generally considered pretty tough. MMZ1 is pretty different from the rest of the MMZ games. Starting from 2 onwards they go a lot closer back to the standard style of MM games where you choose a mission from 1 of 4 or 8 at a time, and so on. Also, they remove the stupid limited continues thing and go back to the old lives and continues system. MMZ2 retains the need to level up your weapons, MMZ3 and 4 do away with that completely. And yes, hitting the right element on a boss takes away an absolutely massive chunk of their health.
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Sep 7, 2013 17:27
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Boxman posted:I just picked up the Megaman Zero Collection in preparation for a transcontinental flight. I haven't played any of the Zero games except 1, which I played on a friend's afterburner'ed GBA back when it first came out. Things to know: Elves are actually affordable in Zero 2, so don't be afraid to utilize a few of them. Try to save up for a big one like double health or half damage (same thing really), whatever floats your boat, but remember that double health means that every +health Elf afterwards will be doubly as good. Otherwise, just get what you want. Zero 2 is also pretty hard in general, so if you're having trouble, consider practicing with the third or fourth game first, just to get in the feel of things. I think it's the best designed, but because of that, your Zero 1 experience doesn't fully apply (it's the most rough around the edges). Zero 3 has some bad levels, but is really polished, so I don't think you'll have that many obvious troubles save for Volteel Biblio (who doesn't have a hard stage, but a really loving terrible one, bring paper and a pen. Seriously). Use the Elves there, you can have two satellite ones out without any penalties, poo poo's cool. Don't forget to use your foot chips once you get them, you for example get a double jump just for beating a boss, that's pretty drat good. Zero 4 is sometimes pretty complicated, though not Elf-wise; maybe look up a few of the recipes for upgrades, though the game will tell you the double-jump (aka the best) recipe if you talk to people. Might take a while and a bit of talking, though, I don't precisely remember. I had a lot of difficulty coming into Zero 4, it feels different somehow, but it's definitely a good game and worth playing. Toy around with the Zero Knuckle, it's sometimes really, really good. And almost always fun. Hope that helped .
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Sep 7, 2013 17:32
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Simply Simon posted:recipes for upgrades Ha ha, I had no idea that poo poo existed. I just saved a recipe list to my phone, because god do I hate crafting things. Thanks for the warnings against Easy Mode. It's not like I'm playing this for the plot, I'll have plenty of time to clear hard stuff.
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Sep 7, 2013 18:02
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I remember I had Mega Man Zero 1 and I could never afford to use any of my cyber elves because the cost was so drat high. I got pretty far though, but ultimately just gave up.
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Sep 7, 2013 18:06
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Can't blame you. Megaman Zero 1 is the hardest MMZ game. It is very unforgiving. I still haven't beaten that game.
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Sep 7, 2013 18:09
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Zero 1 has a very weird difficulty. Sometimes, it is just piss-easy because the level is very short (most are) and the boss can be easily pattern-locked (like Harpuia), sometimes it wants to bust your balls so hard simply because the design is complete garbage (loving escort mission after killing Anubis). And the hardest level, without any way for the player to make it easier, is the very first after the tutorial.
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Sep 7, 2013 18:22
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I couldn't bring myself to use any cyber elf because it literally kills them. I know it's just a game but c'mon, couldn't they just faint or something?
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Sep 7, 2013 18:30
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Shinku ABOOKEN posted:I couldn't bring myself to use any cyber elf because it literally kills them.
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Sep 7, 2013 18:33
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