|
Zettace posted:At a glace there's an error. The portion of the song where she talks to the mirror is more negative than what's translated. Japanese is weird with implied subjects, so it's either the mirror saying "I [the mirror] don't want it [to deal with your poo poo, Tomoko], stop it, I don't want it" or "Nobody wants [Tomoko], stop it, you're unwanted". From the call and response, it seems like the mirror is referring to itself as a Greek chorus. It could go either way, really. And "I pretend not to hear you" doesn't make sense as a response given Tomoko's line, while "You won't listen anyway" does.
|
#
?
Sep 5, 2013 02:23
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 10, 2024 17:52 |
|
|
I was expecting something of a let down after the amazingness of last week, but man even a relatively mundane story like this can make for a really good episode. The "It's You're Fault I'm Popular" part was perfection, and I'm a sucker the affection (buried under layers and layers of loathing) between Tomoko and her brother so the cicada basically made my life.
|
|
#
?
Sep 5, 2013 05:35
|
|
|
MadRhetoric posted:Japanese is weird with implied subjects, so it's either the mirror saying "I [the mirror] don't want it [to deal with your poo poo, Tomoko], stop it, I don't want it" or "Nobody wants [Tomoko], stop it, you're unwanted". From the call and response, it seems like the mirror is referring to itself as a Greek chorus. It could go either way, really. Well, all I did was directly translate the lines: 「いらないお前いらない」 and 「聞こえないふり」 I view the 「いらないお前いらない」 as a response to her asking if the mirror wants to break (because she's ugly). While the 「聞こえないふり」 is the mirror saying out loud her action of ignoring her complaint.
|
|
#
?
Sep 5, 2013 08:41
|
|
|
Rexides posted:And that's how Tomoko's metamorphosis into a crazy cat lady begins.
|
|
#
?
Sep 5, 2013 10:04
|
|
|
DrSunshine posted:If Tomoko were American she'd post on TVTropes, 4chan, or Reddit. No, she'd be posting here on SA. I've watched a couple episodes of this show and it's great. It reminds me of myself and my friends. I don't usually watch this kinda thing let alone post about it, but the main character would be posting in this thread along with everyone else.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2013 05:41
|
|
|
Was this week's end card drawn by the guy who drew Doubt? I'd recognize that bunny mask anywhere.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2013 06:31
|
|
|
For those follow the manga, there's a new chapter out: I'd say that Tomoko has set up a nasty rivalry through solely her own perverse awkwardness. Not that Komiyama had pure intentions per se, but Tomoko just has destroyed that possible friendship and Komiyama's reputation. If the manga is now going to be awful people being socially blind monsters to each other, I think we're about to hit peak cringe. Also, so much for the turn around in Tomoko's character. I feel genuinely bad for Komiyama, especially if she's gonna be a recurring character in the main series now. Ultraklystron fucked around with this message at 02:44 on Sep 8, 2013 |
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2013 10:09
|
|
|
Ultraklystron posted:For those follow the manga, there's a new chapter out: Chapter link Y-y-yyyyeahhh, I'm not really sure how, exactly, it is that people feel sympathetic towards her, because my impression from reading the manga (and watching the show for the past few weeks) is that she's just a miserable and generally awful person, who is entirely responsible for everything untoward that happens to her. And she got worse with this one, so, uhm, yeah!
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2013 15:17
|
|
|
DrSunshine posted:Chapter link The people who sympathize with her are not at all unlike her. So generally awful/unsociable people tend to flock to this. It did gain most of its Western popularity on 4chan of all places. edit: Or more often than not it's someone who has experienced similar embarrassment, like the coffee shop thing, or being walked in on, or the fingerless gloves yu-gi-oh stuff. HoneyBoy fucked around with this message at 15:33 on Sep 7, 2013 |
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2013 15:30
|
|
|
The aspects of Tomoko that make her socially awkward and the aspects that make her a terrible person are separate, if mostly stemming from the same root causes. I'm hoping most people sympathize with the former.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2013 15:35
|
|
|
That was a pretty uninteresting chapter, basically just her being a nonsensical dick with no humor behind it. I found her actions completely baffling, which I know sounds stupid considering all the other ridiculous poo poo she's done.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2013 15:37
|
|
|
Actually I kinda see her actions as an unavoidable result of working on her social awkwardness without also fixing her terrible antisocial worldview. The tomoko from the beginning of the series wouldn't have ever shouted perverse abuse at someone else in a crowded corridor at school.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2013 15:56
|
|
|
I suspect the anime will probably turn out to be better than the manga (which I haven't read), simply by virtue of it ending more quickly. For the manga to continue indefinitely, Tomoko cannot really be allowed to improve, whereas they are free with the anime to suggest some change is happening. For me, as I watch the show, Tomoko is sympathetic because I am watching for signs, any signs of self awareness or self improvement or anything, and a tension still exists as to whether we might see at least some small, incremental thing. Like finding the diary in this episode. If I learned there was going to be a second season, I'd probably drop this. I think it's too simple to just dismiss Tomoko as 'an awful person'. It's true that everything is her fault (though I think the nice, but rather distant, attitude of her family and teachers is not blameless. And sometimes she is just simply unlucky.) but the damage inflicted is also essentially all on herself. So people can sympathise with Tomoko-the-victim here.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2013 15:59
|
|
|
Popehoist posted:Actually I kinda see her actions as an unavoidable result of working on her social awkwardness without also fixing her terrible antisocial worldview. The tomoko from the beginning of the series wouldn't have ever shouted perverse abuse at someone else in a crowded corridor at school. I think the anti-social worldview is really a product of her social awkwardness. I mean, the ultimate issue, in my mind, is her extreme lack of self esteem. Therefore, to allow herself to believe that some kind of interaction is possible - that she is even worthy of that, she must put everyone else on to her own level. Hence, the internal monologue about bitches, and yet when she sees the girl who reads the book she likes and has friends, she rues that she no longer has anything over her. Again, I haven't read the manga, so maybe it's different there. Fangz fucked around with this message at 16:13 on Sep 7, 2013 |
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2013 16:10
|
|
|
folgore posted:That was a pretty uninteresting chapter, basically just her being a nonsensical dick with no humor behind it. I found her actions completely baffling, which I know sounds stupid considering all the other ridiculous poo poo she's done. I don't think it was her being a dick for the hell of it. She genuinely can't remember what they were originally fighting about and kids have a selective memory for poo poo like that. Did you never fall out with someone as a kid in a way that left an impression, even though you've long since forgotten why it was you actually fell out in the first place? Obviously in Watamote it's ridiculously over the top, but less extreme versions happen all the time. Hidingo Kojimba fucked around with this message at 17:55 on Sep 7, 2013 |
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2013 17:10
|
|
|
DrSunshine posted:Y-y-yyyyeahhh, I'm not really sure how, exactly, it is that people feel sympathetic towards her, because my impression from reading the manga (and watching the show for the past few weeks) is that she's just a miserable and generally awful person, who is entirely responsible for everything untoward that happens to her.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2013 17:18
|
|
|
Only thing I find sympathetic is that I know how annoying the "so how about that hot relative of yours" thing can be, but I might as well be just as selfish as Tomoko. On the rest, this seems like the most of Tomomote, the spinoff series played during the middle school years, but less dire. Even there they hated each other even though they had so much in common... or in fact they hated each other BECAUSE they had so much in common.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2013 17:43
|
|
|
I have to say, I'm baffled by some people's insistence that protagonists improve during the show or the series sucks. That's like hating Jim Davis for letting Garfield still be fat and lazy.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2013 18:21
|
|
|
Rexroom posted:I have to say, I'm baffled by some people's insistence that protagonists improve during the show or the series sucks. That's like hating Jim Davis for letting Garfield still be fat and lazy. Lots of people hate Garfield, yes.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2013 18:46
|
|
|
Rexroom posted:I have to say, I'm baffled by some people's insistence that protagonists improve during the show or the series sucks. That's like hating Jim Davis for letting Garfield still be fat and lazy. This has gotta be a fakepost HoneyBoy posted:The people who sympathize with her are not at all unlike her. So generally awful/unsociable people tend to flock to this. It did gain most of its Western popularity on 4chan of all places. I want there to be an arc called "Tomoko and Antidepressants".
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2013 20:51
|
|
|
Captain Invictus posted:This has gotta be a fakepost Nope. What I'm getting at is about some viewers want for characters to "learn" from their mistakes. That's OK. But Tomoko is a comedic archetype of the stubborn loser who doesn't learn - or worse yet, learns the wrong lesson. To hope a break from the formula is probably in vain, since the cruel god of comedy knows no shame.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2013 21:23
|
|
|
Rexroom posted:Nope. What I'm getting at is about some viewers want for characters to "learn" from their mistakes. That's OK. But Tomoko is a comedic archetype of the stubborn loser who doesn't learn - or worse yet, learns the wrong lesson. To hope a break from the formula is probably in vain, since the cruel god of comedy knows no shame. Thing is, mangas tend to end at some point (insert Naruto/Bleach joke here) and Watamote doesn't play in a undefined time period, things change. She started out as a first year in high school, currently in the manga she is second year with different classmates. It will end at some point, even if it does go trough beyond graduation.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2013 21:28
|
|
|
Rexroom posted:Nope. What I'm getting at is about some viewers want for characters to "learn" from their mistakes. That's OK. But Tomoko is a comedic archetype of the stubborn loser who doesn't learn - or worse yet, learns the wrong lesson. To hope a break from the formula is probably in vain, since the cruel god of comedy knows no shame. I think she'll learn (or at least become less pathetic over time, there may be signs of that already). One thing I feel is that even in real life self-improvement isn't some sort of rising curve, it's more like a wavy line slowly inching upward. Which means even as she supposedly gets better she's just going to add more stupid things to her current laundry list of stupid things she's done. Ah well, such is life.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2013 22:23
|
|
|
I think it was best put as "Watamote: 1 step forward, .99 steps back"
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2013 22:30
|
|
|
Super Jay Mann posted:I think she'll learn (or at least become less pathetic over time, there may be signs of that already). One thing I feel is that even in real life self-improvement isn't some sort of rising curve, it's more like a wavy line slowly inching upward. Which means even as she supposedly gets better she's just going to add more stupid things to her current laundry list of stupid things she's done. Ah well, such is life. I am hoping for something like this. Obviously the fun of the show (and manga) is watching her flail horribly and remain an unpopular creep, but that doesn't have to rule out character development. Hopefully she will continue to change a bit as time goes on. This is kind of necessary since you have a series that focuses on the character's thoughts and actions for comedy. If she never changed it would get old. That said, I don't want a drastic revelation or sudden happy ending. I think they do an okay job of showing her periodic ups and downs. Her victories are small, and missteps are frequent, but I think she is a pretty well written character. (So, not Garfield.)
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2013 23:01
|
|
|
One thing-- Why is it that sex is always the first thing on her mind? Okay, yes, yes she's a teenager, of course, and teenagers think about sex a lot. But when it's shown that her mind drifts instantly to sexual things, even in negative situations like in the latest chapter, she really comes off as being obsessed.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2013 23:07
|
|
|
DrSunshine posted:One thing-- Why is it that sex is always the first thing on her mind? Okay, yes, yes she's a teenager, of course, and teenagers think about sex a lot. But when it's shown that her mind drifts instantly to sexual things, even in negative situations like in the latest chapter, she really comes off as being obsessed. Well, it's understandable given the nature of the otaku centric mass media she consumes.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2013 23:09
|
|
|
DrSunshine posted:One thing-- Why is it that sex is always the first thing on her mind? Okay, yes, yes she's a teenager, of course, and teenagers think about sex a lot. But when it's shown that her mind drifts instantly to sexual things, even in negative situations like in the latest chapter, she really comes off as being obsessed. Her primary form of entertainment is porn and she's never had a boyfriend/girlfriend. She has some very unrealistic ideas about sex and its level of importance. Again, most real teenagers aren't that clueless even if they're completely obsessed with porn but Watamote draws its comedy from exaggeration.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2013 23:34
|
|
|
Hidingo Kojimba posted:Her primary form of entertainment is porn and she's never had a boyfriend/girlfriend. She has some very unrealistic ideas about sex and its level of importance. Again, most real teenagers aren't that clueless even if they're completely obsessed with porn but Watamote draws its comedy from exaggeration. Ehh yeah, that's true, isn't it? Having most of the media you consume be porn probably would lead to a very warped world-view, wouldn't it? Frankly, I'm not seeing her get out of her abysmal pit - ever. She's kind of like someone that goons make fun of on the internet, with inevitable white knights defending her when they see aspects of her that aren't terrible and pointing to them as evidence of improvement.
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2013 00:10
|
|
|
DrSunshine posted:Ehh yeah, that's true, isn't it? Having most of the media you consume be porn probably would lead to a very warped world-view, wouldn't it? Frankly, I'm not seeing her get out of her abysmal pit - ever. She's kind of like someone that goons make fun of on the internet, with inevitable white knights defending her when they see aspects of her that aren't terrible and pointing to them as evidence of improvement. I note that the work is autobiographical though...
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2013 00:58
|
|
|
Yeah, the anime is definitely going to end on a good note, while the manga will continue to have awful Tomoko. I'm pretty sure Tomoki going to her school is a spoiler for the anime. It's likely going to be wrapped up into the final episode, so try to not mention this fact in the clear until after the event occurs. I think there will be a cutoff around chapter 37 (if you read the manga you know why) because the following chapter's outfit appeared in the anime in an original bit. Speaking of which, we only have 3 episodes left. Fall/School Festival, Winter Break, Spring/Graduation Day are the most likely candidates. Dehry fucked around with this message at 01:17 on Sep 8, 2013 |
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2013 00:59
|
|
|
DrSunshine posted:Ehh yeah, that's true, isn't it? Having most of the media you consume be porn probably would lead to a very warped world-view, wouldn't it? Frankly, I'm not seeing her get out of her abysmal pit - ever. She's kind of like someone that goons make fun of on the internet, with inevitable white knights defending her when they see aspects of her that aren't terrible and pointing to them as evidence of improvement. Depends really. I mean Tomoko does gradually start interacting with more people as the manga goes on. As Popehoist pointed out, the Tomoko of the first issue wouldn't have had the guts to do what she did in the latest chapter. It's just that the most noticeable effect of her "growth" as a character is that she can keep loving up in new and interesting ways. The fact that time does advance in the manga rather than leaving her a perpetual first year indicates there's an intention to progress rather than keep returning everything to the status quo, even if that progress isn't exactly good per se. In other words, I agree with Invictus: 1 step forward .99 steps back.
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2013 02:23
|
|
|
It's surprising seeing the "Tomoko's a terrible person" posts. Her character's meant to be an insecure and naive child, hence every other exaggeration in the anime and manga. How can people miss that? They practically hit the viewer over the head with it. She goes to the library specifically because "anyone who's there on a friday is obviously a loser" or some such. I'm pretty sure the fun of the show is how relateable the protag is in her embarrassment. They've just bumped it up to nonsensical at times to reach funny conclusions, like when Tomoko adds a recording of herself to that idol guy's and her mom walks in on her. Not many people have probably done that and had that happen to them, but being walked in on when you're doing something silly or personal is universal. Everyone can relate to the embarrassment she felt. Same thing when she wanted to see the fireworks or do something significant during summer break. It's "hey remember that time we/you/you guys did that thing? Oh man..." the show.
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2013 03:23
|
|
|
rizuhbull posted:It's surprising seeing the "Tomoko's a terrible person" posts. Her character's meant to be an insecure and naive child, hence every other exaggeration in the anime and manga. How can people miss that? They practically hit the viewer over the head with it. She goes to the library specifically because "anyone who's there on a friday is obviously a loser" or some such. True to a point, but then she does things like cheating at card games against little kids.
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2013 03:28
|
|
|
Silver2195 posted:True to a point, but then she does things like cheating at card games against little kids.
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2013 03:40
|
|
|
Eh, when I talk about Tomoko being a terrible person, the thing at the forefront of my mind is her slut-shaming attitude, which hits a nerve for me more than the other stupid things she thinks. It's just sour grapes and whatnot, but it rubs me the wrong way more than it's probably intended to.
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2013 09:11
|
|
Silver2195 posted:True to a point, but then she does things like cheating at card games against little kids. Yeah, but that's relateable too because it's about trying to impress someone, we've all done that right? The joke of course is that she comes up with weird and terrible ways of trying to do that and then fails miserably. Her cousin ended up forgiving her out of pity because she's so pathetic that she can only win against children by cheating. How can you not feel bad for someone so utterly pathetic and incompetent?
|
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2013 09:40
|
|
|
rizuhbull posted:Why did her cousin notice she cheated? Because Tomoko's extreme attempts never work. If they did, she'd just be an rear end in a top hat. They don't, so she's a likable loser. It's why you pity instead of hate her. It doesn't really make her not an awful person if she does awful things which fail, the intent's still there (besides, she still won the game in the kids' eyes). Not that I hate her, she's too comically exaggerated for that.
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2013 09:53
|
|
|
Watamote is a comedy, not a drama. Characters stay mostly stagnant unless they need to change for a gag. Tomoko's inept weirdness is supposed to be amusing either because it hits home or as schadenfreude. Sometimes both. It's okay to think she's awful. It's okay to think she's not. As long as you're laughing.
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2013 12:03
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 10, 2024 17:52 |
|
|
Polsy posted:It doesn't really make her not an awful person if she does awful things which fail, the intent's still there (besides, she still won the game in the kids' eyes). Not that I hate her, she's too comically exaggerated for that. It also helps tremendously that you hear her thoughts so you know her intentions. Sure she insults other's in her head, but it's clear that's because she's jealous and not that she actually means what she thinks.
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2013 12:41
|
|