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Yeah and his job disappeared and he basically was totally hosed because of it. Also humans are basically a boiling bag of emotions, it should come as no surprise that people fall to chaos like moths to a flame.
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Sep 6, 2013 18:27
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The "standard" e-book of Betrayer is finally out, thank god. gently caress you and gently caress your "enhanced" editions", GW.
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Sep 6, 2013 18:36
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VanSandman posted:Yeah and his job disappeared and he basically was totally hosed because of it. I really like Abnett's take on Chaos, especially as seen in the Gaunt's Ghosts books (though I have only read up through The Armour Of Contempt, so.) Exposure to Chaos will change you, guaranteed - but it doesn't have to corrupt you.
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Sep 6, 2013 18:37
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Demon Of The Fall posted:I would think you still want Astartes to deal with regular humans like those in planetary governments, IG, etc., so untouchables would be a bad thing because normal humans find them repulsive to be around. Also I doubt the Inquisition would like an entire Chapter of blanks running around, because we have some evidence even Chaos can still corrupt them. Although untouchables can harbor seditious or even heretical thoughts, they cannot be supernaturally corrupted by Chaos as they have no souls to corrupt and the Warp reels from them. Unless you go by that horrible Nemesis novel. Nephilm posted:Yes. Daemons can be exorcised, and survivors of possession gain a certain resistance to the warp, so there's a number of applications to forcing this sort of situation (like an entire Space Marine chapter using the concept). Heretics can also repent and turn back into the Emperor's light, though most times this means dying in a fire unless they're useful assets for an Inquisitor or some other powerful individual or group. Baron Bifford fucked around with this message at 18:48 on Sep 6, 2013 |
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Sep 6, 2013 18:45
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We don't speak of that.
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Sep 6, 2013 19:03
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Baron Bifford posted:Abnett has given untouchables these "limiters" that can turn off their null-warp aura at the flick of a switch. I think a shortage of recruits is a more compelling reason that no one tried to found a Chapter with them.
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Sep 6, 2013 20:15
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Helicon One posted:That and particularly the failure rate of Space Marine induction. You don't want to piss 100 Untouchables up the wall for every Space Marine you get out of the other side of the sausage machine, you'd be better off leaving them as regular humans. It always seemed to me like once you got past all the tests, the actual geneseed implantation didn't have THAT high of a failure rate unless you were dealing with a particularly unstable one like Blood Angels or Space Wolves. Granted, probably even a 25-50% failure rate would be a huge waste in the case of pariahs.
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Sep 6, 2013 23:28
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How many perpetuals are known in the lore of Warhammer 40k? We got John, Oll, possibly the Signilite, and maybe Big E himself? Least thats what I've gathered from the books I've read so far.
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Sep 7, 2013 06:08
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EyeRChris posted:How many perpetuals are known in the lore of Warhammer 40k?
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Sep 7, 2013 06:11
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bunnyofdoom posted:According to Nick Kyme, Vulkan too Uuuggghh if you don't want to know something stupid that is now official don't click that spoiler.
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Sep 7, 2013 07:56
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EyeRChris posted:How many perpetuals are known in the lore of Warhammer 40k? Abnett's story Unmarked in the Mark of Calth anthology has Oll saying the first other Perpetual he met was "Him" and I'm pretty sure he meant the Emperor there. Which I guess answers the question on what happens if he's allowed to die, regardless of the consequences dealing with the Golden Throne.
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Sep 7, 2013 08:59
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Lead Psychiatry posted:Abnett's story Unmarked in the Mark of Calth anthology has Oll saying the first other Perpetual he met was "Him" and I'm pretty sure he meant the Emperor there. There's plenty of references to the Dark Mechanicum being in control of maintenance of the Golden Throne, and all the implications that has.
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Sep 7, 2013 12:11
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Demiurge4 posted:There's plenty of references to the Dark Mechanicum being in control of maintenance of the Golden Throne, and all the implications that has. I've never heard that angle before, can you point to some instances?
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Sep 7, 2013 12:36
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Pyrolocutus posted:I've never heard that angle before, can you point to some instances? Looking around I actually can't find it anywhere, maybe I read it in a Codex? I just remember reading that line somewhere but I could be completely wrong.
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Sep 7, 2013 12:41
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EyeRChris posted:How many perpetuals are known in the lore of Warhammer 40k? There's one in Betrayer.
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Sep 7, 2013 15:43
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Holy poo poo. Betrayer was amazing. I love how ADB can write Chaos characters in such a way that he makes them understandable and even sympathetic, but without making Chaos itself sympathetic. I did not expect to come out of this book feeling sorry for Angron.
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Sep 7, 2013 23:00
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I just finished re-reading fallen angels, and it really wasn't that bad, and did a good job of capturing how The Lion really has no idea of what to do socially. Yet at the same time he is an absolute brilliant tactican/fighter. It also did a good job kind of showing what happens to a world when it meets the imperium.
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Sep 7, 2013 23:05
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Helicon One posted:That and particularly the failure rate of Space Marine induction. You don't want to piss 100 Untouchables up the wall for every Space Marine you get out of the other side of the sausage machine, you'd be better off leaving them as regular humans. Plus, isn't 'chapter of untouchable space marines' basically the Sisters of Silence who run the Black Ships? I mean, they're SoBs rather than space marines, but they're functionally the same, pretty much, and shown to be just as badass in various places in the books. Also, I'm fairly sure that they can make SMs with a lower failure rate, they just choose not to because they have a lot of raw stock, and weeding out the weak ones by whatever means gives you stronger space marines.
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Sep 8, 2013 00:01
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thespaceinvader posted:Also, I'm fairly sure that they can make SMs with a lower failure rate, they just choose not to because they have a lot of raw stock, and weeding out the weak ones by whatever means gives you stronger space marines. I assume they probably could have before the heresy. However given the state of the universe in the 40k era, i really doubt there is anyone with the skills to do that and if there is, the odds are they are most likely branded a heretic.
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Sep 8, 2013 01:50
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thespaceinvader posted:Also, I'm fairly sure that they can make SMs with a lower failure rate, they just choose not to because they have a lot of raw stock, and weeding out the weak ones by whatever means gives you stronger space marines. Nobody's ever really gone into what the rates are, and it's safe to assume that it varies wildly between chapters based on the quality of their gene-seed and the level of knowledge that survives in their apothecarion. For instance, it's vaguely noted that the Ultramarines have some sort of military school filled with volunteers, genetic screenings, and their selection process is relatively refined. Whereas other chapters basically just set their potential recruits on some sort of death challenge climbing up a mountain or something and whoever survives that they stick some gene-seed in them and see if they die.
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Sep 8, 2013 05:55
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Cream_Filling posted:Nobody's ever really gone into what the rates are, and it's safe to assume that it varies wildly between chapters based on the quality of their gene-seed and the level of knowledge that survives in their apothecarion. One short story I read about a squad of training scout space marines investigating a hulk mentioned how the Scout leader in charge had failed the black carapace part of the implantation process and could be a scout but not a fully fledged SM and was resentful of constantly watching recruits come and go and become SMs. The Ultramarines in the fluff are pretty much the exception to the rule. The vast majority of non-first founding chapters are barely mentioned and it's unlikely every chapter has a dedicated planetary system they pull recruits from. Plus they are always written as this indestructible pure hearted chapter. If a single chapter of Ultramarines can stand and fight off a hive fleet then why are other chapters constantly getting wiped out by tyranids?
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Sep 8, 2013 06:55
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So having read Battle of the Fang, I have another question about the Space Wolves. So at one point these guys were a whole legion right? So there was likely close to 100,000 of them give or take a few 10,000. What happen to them all? I kind of understand that other legions broke into chapters of 1,000 and moved on from there, but I can't picture the wolves doing that, especially considering how important their home world is to their identity. If the answer to this goes too deep into future HH events (like 90% of the wolves die at battle XX) then don't answer since I actually like that I don't know too much about the lore going into the HH books. Otherwise, go for it.
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Sep 8, 2013 07:21
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Kenlon posted:I really like Abnett's take on Chaos, especially as seen in the Gaunt's Ghosts books (though I have only read up through The Armour Of Contempt, so.) Exposure to Chaos will change you, guaranteed - but it doesn't have to corrupt you. Abnett's really good at writing Chaos adherents as more than berserk homicidal maniacs. Like the 'factor' character in Ravenor who is fairly normal psychologically and totally unmutated despite using Chaos artifacts, and works as a mercenary for different cults because he think's its the best way to weaken the Imperium. Or the Chaos fighters in Gaunt's Ghosts, who come from their own extra-Imperial civilization that manages to maintain its society (albeit in a highly messed-up form) despite worshipping Chaos. I especially like the latter because they're an example of Chaos worshippers who aren't secretive cultists or renegades: they see Chaos worship as a totally normal component of their culture, and thats a lot more interesting than the depiction of chaos as "Oh no this world has fallen and now demons are running around everywhere and the seas are boiling blood whelp better exterminatus the whole thing". It makes the CSM slightly more sympathetic in that them winning wouldn't necessarily result in the extermination of humanity, just it living under different, even more horrible and brutal rulers. I think the corruption thing has to do with the person itself. If you're smart or strong-willed enough, or super faithful, you have a better chance of resisting corruption. And if you don't resist, how hosed up you get (physically and mentally) depends on how useful you are to Chaos. So if the average person gets exposed to Chaos they're going to go insane or get some gnarly new limbs, but if you have potential as a cult leader you might get an easily disguised mutation or blemish, if any at all. Meanwhile if you're a Chaos renegade it doesn't matter how hosed up you look, so you get razor-sharp claw-tentacles or a demonic chainsaw where your forearm was or some crazy poo poo like that.
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Sep 8, 2013 07:47
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Anonymous Zebra posted:So having read Battle of the Fang, I have another question about the Space Wolves. So at one point these guys were a whole legion right? So there was likely close to 100,000 of them give or take a few 10,000. What happen to them all? I kind of understand that other legions broke into chapters of 1,000 and moved on from there, but I can't picture the wolves doing that, especially considering how important their home world is to their identity. I'm fairly sure the Space Wolves are still at nearly their former strength, actually. According to Lexicanum they were only split into two following the Heresy: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Space_Wolves They were also never all that large to begin with, unlike, say, the Ultramarines who were like 50 or 60 thousand I think. The Space Wolves were elite commando unit equivalents rather than giant armies.
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Sep 8, 2013 08:33
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thespaceinvader posted:I'm fairly sure the Space Wolves are still at nearly their former strength, actually. According to Lexicanum they were only split into two following the Heresy: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Space_Wolves According to the numbers given in the HH books so far http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Space_Marine_Legion the smallest legions at the start of the Heresy was the Thousand Sons with 10,000 (legendary for their small legion size compared to the others) and most were closer to 6 digits. I seriously doubt the remaining loyalist legions were depleted to 1/50 their size when the second founding was established. The Ultramarines were topping out at 250k but the popular theory is they absorbed the 2 lost legions at some point. The Space Wolves are a problem, unless they lost 90-95% of the legion when fighting Magnos then a few thousand Space Marines just up and vanished. I guess when they get to it Russ will take the bulk of the legion to the Eye and the few remainders will make up the new chapter. The closer they get to the final confrontation between Horus and the Emperor the more gaping inconsistencies they'll be forced to establish some canon for. When they wrote the Codexes GW wasn't big on consistent numbers or details, which worked for the setting. I expect once they run out of HH stuff they'll reveal some epic saga about the 2 missing Primarchs.
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Sep 8, 2013 09:07
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Nah, the two missing primarchs are so people can make up their own legions for funsies. Although since that's potentially leaving money on the table, maybe GW will decide they need even more space marine stuff to sell.
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Sep 8, 2013 09:27
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250k sounds a little small for a galxay-conquering army. Even if a SM is worth 10 guardsmen, that is still just 2.5M.
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Sep 8, 2013 14:27
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I've always liked one of ADB's ideas from The First Heretic that Chaos is the primordial truth. There are true gods in the universe whom demand your worship and loyalty but they are also terrible and horrific beings who demand terrible and horrible things done in their name. The real heretics are those that reject Chaos and the truth of the universe.
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Sep 8, 2013 14:34
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How old are the Chaos Gods? I think I read somewhere that Khorne awoke in the Middle Ages.
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Sep 8, 2013 14:45
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Kegslayer posted:I've always liked one of ADB's ideas from The First Heretic that Chaos is the primordial truth. There are true gods in the universe whom demand your worship and loyalty but they are also terrible and horrific beings who demand terrible and horrible things done in their name. I always got that they're the primordial truth insofar as the primordial truth = the entropy of all things, including the universe itself. Which... well, is "true." But it's sorta like, okay... what do you want me to do with that information? Just say "gently caress it" and give in to nihilism because a billion years from now physics as we know it won't exist? The most zealous followers of chaos actually do this ("woo!! entropy! burn this motherfucker down!"), while all the loyalists are like "no, that's stupid." And then other, less zealous chaos followers want to use this "truth" to do... something. Baron Bifford posted:How old are the Chaos Gods? I think I read somewhere that Khorne awoke in the Middle Ages. Similarly, I always got that the Chaos gods are small-g gods, and are almost just "greater" greater daemons. They're still subservient to, well, the primordial truth / entropy. They exist as distinct entities partly only because of our pitiful mortal conceptions, and partly because they manifested out of "chaos" somewhat like a daemon manifests into a mostly discrete entity when it enters the physical realm... but the gods do this while still in the midst of chaos/the warp. Or something (?) DirtyRobot fucked around with this message at 16:52 on Sep 8, 2013 |
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Sep 8, 2013 16:45
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Baron Bifford posted:How old are the Chaos Gods? I think I read somewhere that Khorne awoke in the Middle Ages.
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Sep 8, 2013 16:51
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Baron Bifford posted:How old are the Chaos Gods? I think I read somewhere that Khorne awoke in the Middle Ages. I'd think the chronology would go Nurgle, Tzeench, Khorne, then Slaanesh. Humans had the ability to be diseased and hope, then they evolved schemes and plots, used said schemes and plots to butcher each other wholesale, then space elves birthed Slaanesh from their narcissism and hedonism. As an aside, does anyone have the mobi of the last book in the Night Lords trilogy? I apparently can't get it from Afghanistan and I only brought two of the hard copy books I had. I'm loving freaking out without finishing it. Protons fucked around with this message at 17:07 on Sep 8, 2013 |
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Sep 8, 2013 17:03
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Protons posted:I'd think the chronology would go Nurgle, Tzeench, Khorne, then Slaanesh. Humans had the ability to be diseased and hope, then they evolved schemes and plots, used said schemes and plots to butcher each other wholesale, then space elves birthed Slaanesh from their narcissism and hedonism. It would be files so you totally shouldn't give me your email for it to be mailed to
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Sep 8, 2013 17:12
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Fried Chicken posted:It would be files so you totally shouldn't give me your email for it to be mailed to Ah you're right! Never mind. Looks like I'm hosed for 2 more months until I can get an IP address that isn't hated by BL.com Protons fucked around with this message at 17:42 on Sep 8, 2013 |
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Sep 8, 2013 17:34
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DirtyRobot posted:I always got that they're the primordial truth insofar as the primordial truth = the entropy of all things, including the universe itself. Which... well, is "true." But it's sorta like, okay... what do you want me to do with that information? Just say "gently caress it" and give in to nihilism because a billion years from now physics as we know it won't exist? The most zealous followers of chaos actually do this ("woo!! entropy! burn this motherfucker down!"), while all the loyalists are like "no, that's stupid." And then other, less zealous chaos followers want to use this "truth" to do... something. I think the fluff might have changed but aren't the Chaos gods associated with life and growth as well? There was even a character in one of the warhammer fantasy army books that was a champion of Tzeentch? I think he was suppose to be an embodiment of life and change and stuff like grass was suppose to grow on his feet and plants reviving in his presence.
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Sep 8, 2013 18:04
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Protons posted:I'd think the chronology would go Nurgle, Tzeench, Khorne, then Slaanesh. Humans had the ability to be diseased and hope, then they evolved schemes and plots, used said schemes and plots to butcher each other wholesale, then space elves birthed Slaanesh from their narcissism and hedonism. This assumes that the first three weren't born from the psychic emanations of other species older than humans. Who only discovered and then decided to gently caress with the silly monkeys a less than a million years ago or whenever.
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Sep 8, 2013 18:25
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There's also the whole distinction between the Warp powers (and the Warp in general) being its own thing vs. just a reflection of the material universe's emotions, isn't it? It seems like originally the Warp/Chaos was supposed to be able to reflect positive as well as negative things but that's been almost eliminated, and it's unclear to me to what extent that's supposed to be an in-universe thing caused by all the mortal races becoming increasingly bitter and hateful, or an extra-universe walkback because 95% of the writers break out in hives at the thought of writing any sort of nuance. Kegslayer posted:I think the fluff might have changed but aren't the Chaos gods associated with life and growth as well? There was even a character in one of the warhammer fantasy army books that was a champion of Tzeentch? I think he was suppose to be an embodiment of life and change and stuff like grass was suppose to grow on his feet and plants reviving in his presence. Yeah, this is the sort of thing I'm talking about.
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Sep 8, 2013 18:59
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berzerkmonkey posted:They have no age, they just "are." Their powers wax and wane depending on emotion and worshipers - the only god we know was "born" was Slaanesh, and that was way before any humans existed. I thought that Slaanesh's birth was what blew away all the warp storms that allowed the Emperor to finally begin the great crusade.
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Sep 8, 2013 19:17
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Khorne was associated with the Golden Horde, nurgle with the Black Death and tzeentch with the renaissance, I think. Been a while since I read slaves to darkness and the lost and the damned
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Sep 8, 2013 19:22
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berzerkmonkey posted:They have no age, they just "are." Their powers wax and wane depending on emotion and worshipers - the only god we know was "born" was Slaanesh, and that was way before any humans existed. I thought Slannesh was born during M30?
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Sep 8, 2013 19:22
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