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One thing that I find really quite interesting about Brutal Doom is that it does something that very few other mods do; equalizes weapon power levels. It really changes the dynamic of the game, as it's much less of a straight progression of power from one gun to the next, but another tool that gives you more combat options, and none seem to ever become redundant. What's more impressive is that it does this while still managing to make every weapon feel very distinct. Even the two shotguns are very different beasts. It's something that so many modern shooters and their dozens of nigh-identical bullet hoses could learn from.
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Sep 6, 2013 22:32
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Geight posted:I'd rather see Interceptor get it, but since they gave me a 10% coupon for the game (?!) I decided to buy it. I don't want Blood to get filled with horrendous, idiotic jumping puzzles and a crap checkpoint system and padded-out bosses instead of shooting. 
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Sep 6, 2013 22:59
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Dominic White posted:One thing that I find really quite interesting about Brutal Doom is that it does something that very few other mods do; equalizes weapon power levels. It really changes the dynamic of the game, as it's much less of a straight progression of power from one gun to the next, but another tool that gives you more combat options, and none seem to ever become redundant. It's pretty much my favorite aspect of the mod. I have a strong dislike of linearity in games, and I prefer a progression that adds more tools to my belt, rather than replacing my tools with increasingly powerful versions of things I already have.
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Sep 6, 2013 23:09
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Brutal Doom is definitely a case of came for the gore, stayed for the gameplay. I love how it rebalances the game and makes it so much more dynamic. The gore helps all the weapons feel more powerful and badass, but the levelling of the playing field between guns means I actually use the different guns now. I went through most of the doom games basically just using the shotgun and then sometimes the chaingun for sniping. Regaining health with the fatalities is also great, cause it adds a big risk/reward element with meleeing the tougher monsters. Managing to kick a baron of hell in the nuts and punch him to death is pretty tough, but you get pretty much full health from doing it.
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Sep 6, 2013 23:27
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spider wisdom posted:Goes well with your Bridget Jones' Diary dvd. AND a box of Triscuits. Edit: Also anybody play Paranautical Activity? It claims it has Doom/Quake like game-play, but all the voxel based games I played always had weak feeling combat. SaucyLoggins fucked around with this message at 01:27 on Sep 7, 2013 |
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Sep 7, 2013 01:11
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SaucyLoggins posted:Also anybody play Paranautical Activity? It claims it has Doom/Quake like game-play, but all the voxel based games I played always had weak feeling combat. Yeah, I own it. It's fun enough for not very much money... I'm not sure if the Steam version added anything, but the version that I have from a month ago doesn't have as much variety as DOOM, in either enemies, weapons, or level design. I'd watch someone play it youtube or watch a stream of it before you buy it.
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Sep 7, 2013 01:30
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SilentW posted:Yeah, I own it. It's fun enough for not very much money... I'm not sure if the Steam version added anything, but the version that I have from a month ago doesn't have as much variety as DOOM, in either enemies, weapons, or level design. I'd watch someone play it youtube or watch a stream of it before you buy it. There's quite a few more weapons and enemies now than there used to be, plus they just finished a kickstarter to fund the development of more content in general. It should improve a lot over the next six months, I think. The new ninja enemies are absolutely maddening. Hard to keep track of something that keeps teleporting around. One is bad, two is hellish. Dominic White fucked around with this message at 01:39 on Sep 7, 2013 |
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Sep 7, 2013 01:37
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None of you wouldn't happen to have a good guide to making half life maps would you? It seems like nowadays these games should be easy to make maps for and I'd like to try to take a crack at it.
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Sep 7, 2013 02:59
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Dominic White posted:One thing that I find really quite interesting about Brutal Doom is that it does something that very few other mods do; equalizes weapon power levels. It really changes the dynamic of the game, as it's much less of a straight progression of power from one gun to the next, but another tool that gives you more combat options, and none seem to ever become redundant. Really? The only weapon I actually ignore once I get new ones is the pistol. I'm always switching between guns depending on what I'm up against.
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Sep 7, 2013 04:32
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Mak0rz posted:Really? The only weapon I actually ignore once I get new ones is the pistol. I'm always switching between guns depending on what I'm up against. There's some use to older guns in regular Doom, but the SSG makes the regular shotgun and (in part) the chaingun redundant, and if you have cells, the plasma gun is always going to be your choice for raw damage. And melee and the chainsaw are both completely useless. Brutal Doom makes each weapon much broader in its application, and levels out the power of them all.
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Sep 7, 2013 05:20
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Dominic White posted:There's some use to older guns in regular Doom, but the SSG makes the regular shotgun and (in part) the chaingun redundant, and if you have cells, the plasma gun is always going to be your choice for raw damage. And melee and the chainsaw are both completely useless. The regular shotgun is better than the SSG for midrange fights, and for conserving ammo when going against imps and human enemies. The chaingun is good for taking out groups of lesser enemies, and for stunlocking cacodemons and pain elementals. I usually only use the plasma rifle and BFG against cyberdemons, spider demons and arch-viles. The chainsaw is fun to use against demons and specters, but outside of that I agree, melee is pointless in vanilla Doom.
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Sep 7, 2013 05:37
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Chainsaw works pretty good against Cacodemons.
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Sep 7, 2013 05:43
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I agree with DIEGETIC SPACEMAN, I use most of the weapons. I'm finishing up a 3-level Doom 2 WAD that I had set aside for a while. I had large hordes and realized that fighting them with nothing more than a chaingun and SSG was a bit tiring, so I put in a secret Plasma rifle, but only a limited supply of cells. I discovered that if you carefully limit the amount of cells, the Plasma rifle doesn't become an "I win" button, just something that helps speed things up. I found that doling out a handful of 20-ammo cell packs produced a more interesting combat dynamic than slapping in a bunch of Megacells. (If anyone wants to test the maps and give feedback, PM me. I think I only have a little bit of detail work to do.)
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Sep 7, 2013 05:47
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They had me at the fully destructible bicycles 
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Sep 7, 2013 09:42
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I was more excited about ADVANCED FISH PHYSICS!
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Sep 7, 2013 17:33
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Dominic White posted:There's some use to older guns in regular Doom, but the SSG makes the regular shotgun and (in part) the chaingun redundant, and if you have cells, the plasma gun is always going to be your choice for raw damage. And melee and the chainsaw are both completely useless. I disagree. I use the single shotgun for getting through small numbers of imps and zombies at mid range. It's also more effective at longer ranges than the super shotgun is. The chainsaw and chaingun are my weapons of choice for dealing with cacodemons and I tend to use punches if I have Beserk, depending on the situation. I only really use the plasma gun for enemies with low pain chances. Comes in handy for arch-viles and barons because of its insane rate of fire.
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Sep 7, 2013 22:36
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The chaingun is both a perfectly accurate hitscan weapon, and also has the advantage of using it's own ammo pool, unlike the plasma rifle, which will always come at the expense of BFG ammo, as the BFG has more damage output per cell. I really only use plasma in panic situations, and even then, I think twice if I'm on a map with a BFG in it.
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Sep 7, 2013 22:44
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Most weapons in DOOM I/II can be useful in certain situations. Except the pistol, once you find the chaingun, there's no point in using the peashooter. Even the melee weapons can be helpful: (chainsaw + pinkies running towards you through a narrow hallways =  )
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Sep 8, 2013 00:18
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FirstPersonShitter posted:- Cyberdemon will need to take 10 rocket headshots instead of 8 to die quickly. It was 7 rockets. And that's still completely dumb. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAAzvp0-qLk
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Sep 8, 2013 15:51
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Tiger Schwert posted:It was 7 rockets. And that's still completely dumb. it depends where you run into one. in big open areas it's dumb, but when you run into one in tighter spaces it makes the fight less frustrating, cause the new rocket pattern brutal doom adds to the cyberdemon can be really hard to dodge without maneuvering room.
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Sep 8, 2013 23:55
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Yeah, given the way that Cyberdemons are generally used in custom WADs, the ability to headshot them counterbalances the fact that BD Cyberdemons are significantly more dangerous than their vanilla counterparts. It all works out in the end, since you generally won't be in a situation where you can just casually kill one with headshots. You might score two or three hits that will expedite their deaths a little, but you'll be too busy dodging faster, larger rocket salvos and other nasties to really make short work of them.
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Sep 9, 2013 00:09
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Is there a way to increase the UI size in KMQuake II? I finally got all the settings where I want them and the music working, but I can barely tell how much health I have. I tried DirectQII, which can do it, but I couldn't get the music to work.
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Sep 9, 2013 04:21
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Cream-of-Plenty posted:Yeah, given the way that Cyberdemons are generally used in custom WADs, the ability to headshot them counterbalances the fact that BD Cyberdemons are significantly more dangerous than their vanilla counterparts. It all works out in the end, since you generally won't be in a situation where you can just casually kill one with headshots. You might score two or three hits that will expedite their deaths a little, but you'll be too busy dodging faster, larger rocket salvos and other nasties to really make short work of them. How to dodge a vanilla Cyberdemon's rocket salvo : Move slowly in one perpendicular direction while making sure there is nothing the rockets will splash against. How to dodge a BrDoom Cyberdemon's rocket salvo : Move slowly in one perpendicular direction while making sure there is nothing the rockets will splash against. It's something shmup players do all the time, commonly called "streaming". And the speed/number of the bullets is not a factor in how hard it is to do. It is not in any way hard to score headshots on something roughly the size of a house. Cyberdemons characteristically require a great deal of resources to take down - unless you have the BFG and you can do the risky strategy of doing close-up full-tracer shots. Which is much more difficult, much more satisfying, and completely impossible in BrDoom because of the different way the BFG works (and how much self-damage it inflicts) Throckwoddle posted:Is there a way to increase the UI size in KMQuake II? I finally got all the settings where I want them and the music working, but I can barely tell how much health I have. I tried DirectQII, which can do it, but I couldn't get the music to work. These are complete shots in the dark, try hud_scale, gl_scale, scale. danbo fucked around with this message at 13:04 on Sep 9, 2013 |
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Sep 9, 2013 12:59
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QuestWhat posted:once you find the chaingun, there's no point in using the peashooter Shooting hit-activated switches that cannot be punched.
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Sep 9, 2013 14:06
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Tiger Schwert posted:How to dodge a vanilla Cyberdemon's rocket salvo : Move slowly in one perpendicular direction while making sure there is nothing the rockets will splash against. The brutal doom cyberdemon fires in more of a spread pattern, so it's much harder to stream his rockets unless you're in a big enough area. the creator of brutal doom recommends Alien Vendetta as a wad to play with brutal doom, and pretty often in that wad you'll find cyberdemons in enclosed corridors (the worst example being in that wretched pyramid level). Cyberdemons in base doom were always easy as hell, they were just a boring chore.
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Sep 9, 2013 14:15
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The Brutal cyberdemons used to be even nastier - they used to randomly fire grenades instead of rockets, which were utter murder in enclosed spaces. I think they can also lead you to a degree still. Having a quick-kill option (which still requires landing 7-8 precise rocket headshots while dodging) is an interesting addition, especially given that a lot of later levels, as mentioned, like using them as punctuation in a level rather than as an end-boss.
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Sep 9, 2013 14:27
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When you stand still they seem to fire in bursts of 4 or 5 and two of them veer off to the left and right, so if you try and wait to dodge the stream of rockets at the last second it pastes you anyway.
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Sep 9, 2013 14:49
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Dominic White posted:The Brutal cyberdemons used to be even nastier - they used to randomly fire grenades instead of rockets, which were utter murder in enclosed spaces. I think they can also lead you to a degree still. Those grenades were crazy. They really did seen to fire them in front of you as you ran around them. Wouldn't mind if they came back.
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Sep 9, 2013 16:03
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tooooooo bad posted:Those grenades were crazy. They really did seen to fire them in front of you as you ran around them. Wouldn't mind if they came back. No thanks. They're rough enough in their current incarnation, at least when they come in pairs or more. The balance changes make them a little less dangerous as individual setpiece bosses, but as heavy enemies they keep up a lot more pressure.
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Sep 9, 2013 16:32
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I don't like the change to spider masterminds to make them immune to non-headshot damage, it makes them really difficult to fight in some levels because of how they're placed so you can only really shoot their legs.
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Sep 9, 2013 16:44
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I enjoy the balance of risk and reward vanilla doom provides from getting right up in an enemies face. You can reliably dodge every kind of projectile or bait out melee attacks while maximising the number of super shotgun pellets that connect in a shot. The risk is boxing yourself in, letting another enemy flank you or screwing up your spacing and taking a projectile to the face. The cyberdemon works the same way, it just raises the stakes. You can either weave left and right in front of them with the super shotgun or time two BFG tracers to hit at point blank range when they finish firing off a salvo. You have to decide if you want to put your progress in a map on the line and conserve resources, or play it safe and spam rockets, plasma etc at range. It's not a sure thing either, it takes practice and minute mistakes in timing or positioning can require you to finish them off with the SSG. You'll often see extremely good players taking the safer option in longer demos or when playing particularly difficult maps. Unfortunately brutal doom's cyberdemon design doesn't let you do that. It fires rockets in an unpredictable cone unlike the mancubus and if you get to close with the BFG you're going to kill yourself. Instead you're limited to staying at medium to long range and spamming rockets at their head for a quick takedown, which i'd say is far easier mechanically and less risky than what you can do in vanilla. I can only vaguely remember the grenades but they sound remarkably stupid and I can see why they were removed. FirstPersonShitter posted:the creator of brutal doom recommends Alien Vendetta as a wad to play with brutal doom, and pretty often in that wad you'll find cyberdemons in enclosed corridors (the worst example being in that wretched pyramid level). At the mid point of the map, both in gameplay terms and thematically, you'll come across two cyberdemons in an area with two branching staircases; one is at the top on the right, the other at the bottom to the left. You'll have been given a mega armour by this point and there's an obvious secret area immediately before that provides a soul-sphere, green armour and cells so you won't be be hurting too badly for resources. The challenge comes from the very cramped area of play with lots of right-angled corners that make splash very dangerous. It's also much harder to control your movement when you're dealing with any kind of staircase or variation in floor height. The risk of the loss of control from getting bounced about by splash and the gradual loss of health effectively pressures you to play as aggressively as possible with the BFG and kill the cyberdemons with two or three shots apiece. If you lose your cool you might find yourself being pressured towards the second cyberdemon at the bottom of the staircase and at that point you're likely going to die. It's challenging and the cost of failure is very high. This makes it satisfying when you pull through relatively unscathed. I honestly can't see how this fight would work with brutal doom. I'll have to load it up and see for myself. Given the mechanics, i'm not too optimistic however. koren fucked around with this message at 17:10 on Sep 9, 2013 |
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Sep 9, 2013 17:06
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Korendian Leader posted:I honestly can't see how this fight would work with brutal doom. I'll have to load it up and see for myself. Given the mechanics, i'm not too optimistic however. honestly I did it by alerting the cyberdemon on the lower staircase further down the hall, getting him to stand on the staircase where he thought he could shoot me but really the terrain blocked the rockets and then shot him in the head with the assault rifle till he died. Then I did the same thing with the second one on the branching corridor, but got him standing so his rockets shot into the corner instead of at me. I've got to be honest though I hate boss enemies in first person shooters. anything that makes them die quicker is OK by me.
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Sep 9, 2013 17:31
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Yeah, I agree with Korendian. BD's Cyberdemon and even the Spider mastermind implementation is way too harrowing and violent. BD is fun otherwise but cranks it up way too high for the bosses. It reduces the amount of skill and strategy needed and requires you to either game mechanics or get really lucky with dodging or in-fighting.
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Sep 9, 2013 17:54
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Cybies are sort of the ultimate evolution of the Hell Knight/Baron/Cybie chain, in that they aren't really a direct threat (in the sense that none of those enemies can hurt you if you don't stand still, or double back your movement), but they represent a constant nuisance that requires significant time, attention, and resources to remove. Barons are probably the best example of this- they frequently show up on the "most hated" Doom II enemies list, because they soak up a ton of damage, while not really being that much of a threat by themselves. Most wad authors these days realize this, however, and barons have a neat utility as a constant threat to keep the player moving that can't easily be removed. Killing barons is annoying, so if you plop a few in an intense fight, the player is likely not to bother trying to deal direct damage to them; their design, in fact, encourages players to keep them alive in fights as long as possible, with the hope that they'll take a reasonable amount of infighting damage to make them less of a resource sink. Cybies are a bit different, in the sense that they're used as a direct threat more often than barons (though this, honestly, is my least favorite use of them), but very often, you still see them plopped in the far corners of large open slaughter-fights (a lot of the time, they're on pedestals, so the vertical offset between the cybie and the player creates a significant blast-damage threat). You simply can't waste your time firing long-range rockets, or afford the damage output cost of long-range BFG shots when you've got 10 arachs, 12 revs, and a couple of archies on your rear end. Like Barons, or Hell Knights, or, at the very lowest end, even imps in early-level pistol/shotgun versus low-end hitscanner fights, they're there to prevent the player from being safe in one area for too long. That's the problem with making their rockets an unpredictable spread- once you do that, the cyberdemon can't help but become a priority threat. The two most important enemy types to focus on in open combat are hitscanners (including the archies), which deal unavoidable damage, and mancubi/revs (and, to a lesser extent, arachs and Pain Elementals), which deal damage that can't reliably be dealt with simply by circle-strafing at a controlled speed. If you make the Cybie's rockets unpredictable, then you must focus your attention on dodging their rockets, which sounds like it makes things more challenging, but can completely wreck the balance in slaughter fights. Once open combat is made too hazardous to reliably do, the player is likely to look for safe-but-tedious solutions, like funneling enemies through narrow passages a few at a time.
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Sep 9, 2013 18:00
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Those are some really good points, and explains pretty concisely why brutal doom fucks up boss-heavy maps. Go 2 It was a huge pain in the rear end cause I spent so long ducking in and out of cover shotgunning cyberdemons. I like the rest of the changes brutal doom makes to monsters, but the bosses are hugely unfun.
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Sep 9, 2013 18:20
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Tiger Schwert posted:How to dodge a vanilla Cyberdemon's rocket salvo : Move slowly in one perpendicular direction while making sure there is nothing the rockets will splash against. Oh, thanks for these pro-strats Except a lot of the feedback from other people seems to suggest that you're either mistaken or, you know, wrong, at least when it comes to more recent versions of BD's Cyberdemon.
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Sep 9, 2013 20:42
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He's not wrong in the sense that lone cyberdemons in BD (in the Tower of Babel sense) still don't really represent that serious of a threat (I'd certainly think I'd have a better chance of facing, say, one cyberdemon, than three or four revs in the same space.) What the spread does do is totally gently caress up the use of cyberdemons in slaughter fights- the fact that you can now take them down easier just homogenizes them, making them more like revs, mancubi, or arachs- a priority threat that can deal serious damage if you aren't absolutely focused on them. That seems to be a common theme in Brutal Doom- Brutal Doom seemed to recognize that several Doom II enemies were only indirect dangers to the player, and decided that this was a design mistake in the original game. As a result, everything is dangerous as a direct damage threat, so you lose a lot of the subtleties of Doom II combat. It's cranked up in difficulty, but also homogenized.
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Sep 9, 2013 20:55
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Fag Boy Jim posted:He's not wrong in the sense that lone cyberdemons in BD (in the Tower of Babel sense) still don't really represent that serious of a threat (I'd certainly think I'd have a better chance of facing, say, one cyberdemon, than three or four revs in the same space.) What the spread does do is totally gently caress up the use of cyberdemons in slaughter fights- the fact that you can now take them down easier just homogenizes them, making them more like revs, mancubi, or arachs- a priority threat that can deal serious damage if you aren't absolutely focused on them. No, true, lone Cyberdemons in large spaces are pretty much impotent in either vanilla or *some* versions of BD. But Tiger Schert, in his usual condescending fashion, seems to be trying to educate people on a mod he refuses to play by offering vague "advice" on a very specific scenario. The reality is that more than half of the cyberdemons I encounter in WADs aren't alone or even in big open spaces and that, often times, the staggered nature of the BD cyberdemon's rocket salvos doesn't permit "move slowly in perpendicular direction" as the secret ticket to victory. EDIT: Oh! I almost forgot. I talked to Bethesda and the "vintage" Doom t-shirt that somebody got from Pax Prime should be available in their store in the "next couple of weeks" so if you can't find one before then, be sure to check their store at some point. Cream-of-Plenty fucked around with this message at 22:46 on Sep 9, 2013 |
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Sep 9, 2013 21:02
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brutal doom boss monsters force you to deal with them because they're harder to dodge and hide from. the spider mastermind fires projectiles that explode instead of hitscan bullets, so while you can dodge its bullets somewhat more easily, you can't pop in and out of corners so easily because the splash can whittle you down. it really fucks up that one alien vendetta map, i think map 12 or something, with the huge room with like 8 spider masterminds.
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Sep 9, 2013 22:48
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Cream-of-Plenty posted:Oh, thanks for these pro-strats Is brutalv018a.pk3 the latest version? I just loaded up a test map and circle-strafed while spraying the rifle at about head-height, didn't realise it only took about 50 bullets to take one down. Didn't get hit by anything. Maybe I just got lucky due to the random nature of the spraying. So on their own, when you can give them full attention - they're still not really threatening. However, in more hectic encounters, if you don't immediately give them full attention you will most likely get smacked by a rocket that had a random chance of hitting you. So you gotta kill them first. But, cyberdemon rockets are a great tool for infighting due to their predictable, yet somewhat dangerous, nature. Encounters are designed around this, and (in many cases) won't give you the resources to do things the long and gruelling way. So the change doesn't really make 1-on-1s much harder and completely messes up the balance and monster roles in large fights. Why make the change? A lot of this is due to what some might call Doom's "baggage". There are, what - 20 years of megawads that have been carefully honed and balanced against Doom's original ruleset. It's not inherently the worst thing in the world that BrDoom's cyberdemons require immediate attention (dumbs it down a little as previously discussed), but you need look no further than this thread to find people who are finding these wads impossible because they don't realise just how much of a spanner the mod throws in the works. Didn't someone say AV is personally recommended for use with BrDoom, and yet there are quite a few examples of fights that it fucks over? This is why I wish the developer/s would move towards creating an original property (kickstarter?), then supporting all these old megawads doesn't become an issue. Or at the very least, tie it in with a proper map pack designed to accommodate these new rules.
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Sep 10, 2013 00:41
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