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Astro7x posted:You actually got a gold disc that had Ocarina of Time and Master Quest on it for pre-ordering Wind Waker. Yeah, I corrected the mistake. I had a momentary brainfart there.
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Sep 9, 2013 22:22
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ImpAtom posted:I've probably still got magazines with entire articles about the negative backlash, including "maybe they'll change the art style," lying in a basement somewhere. It was a fairly common response. It's really funny, now that gritty realism has been done to death a hundred times over any game with a cartoony or colorful art style is hailed for being "unique" and "charming."
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Sep 9, 2013 22:23
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Yes, the Spaceworld tech demo set up fan expectations that were let down by the sudden change in art style. A lot of people at the time thought two Zelda games with different art styles were in development at the same time. I think that's why Link's appearance and character design in Soul Calibur 2 drew so much attention. It was what many fans had imagined the character would look like on the Gamecube hardware. Nintendo choose the Wind Waker's artstyle in order to cut down on production costs, maintain an attractive art style that would appeal to a wide demographic, and increase the series popularity in Japan. While Ocarina of Time was practically a worldwide release, Wind Waker just managed to make the Japanese holiday period in 2002 but wouldn't release in North America until three months later. A lot of this had to do with designing the game for the Japanese market and the restructuring of Nintendo of America during that time. Nintendo was aware that Japan was undergoing a demographic shift that would have a major impact on the industry in the near future. It's why they would later create games such as Brain Training and Nintendogs. While the game was somewhat successful in Japan, it failed to meet expectations in the West. Ironically, Wind Waker had to be rushed out in order to meet the Japanese holiday and had dungeons removed in spite of its cost cutting measures. It's also one of the most technically impressive games ever made during the generation and features a stunning attention to detail. It's funny how things worked out in the end. Nintendo decided to go in the other direction by designing Twilight Princess for Western. There must have been a lot of pent up demand because Twilight Princess went on to sell extremely well in North America and Europe but not so much in Japan. I guess this was a New Coke vs Coca-Cola Classic scenario.
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Sep 9, 2013 22:29
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Twilight princess was also like, the only reasonable wii launch game. I probably would have skipped it if there was anything else (like the wii in general), and I imagine there were a lot of folks in the same boat.
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Sep 9, 2013 22:41
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Sunning posted:Nintendo decided to go in the other direction by designing Twilight Princess for Western. There must have been a lot of pent up demand because Twilight Princess went on to sell extremely well in North America and Europe but not so much in Japan. I guess this was a New Coke vs Coca-Cola Classic scenario. The Japan vs US thing seems to be hitting them a lot lately. Admittedly they're pretty far from the only Japanese company to seem to have that problem. Jeffrey posted:Twilight princess was also like, the only reasonable wii launch game. I probably would have skipped it if there was anything else (like the wii in general), and I imagine there were a lot of folks in the same boat. I played Trauma Center more than I played TP. v  v
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Sep 9, 2013 22:45
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Jeffrey posted:Twilight princess was also like, the only reasonable wii launch game. I probably would have skipped it if there was anything else (like the wii in general), and I imagine there were a lot of folks in the same boat. I played Dragonball Z Tenkaichi 2 much more than I played Twilight Princess. In actuality, if Metal Slug Collection had released at launch when it was supposed to, I probably would have played that more too. I found and still find Twilight Princess to be lacking.
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Sep 9, 2013 22:52
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TaurusOxford posted:Cause gamers are stupid hypocrites who will bitch and whine about a game but will still buy it. The only time I think gamers truly spoke with their wallets was DmC. I rented DmC rather than paying full price for it, since there's nothing worse than someone complaining about a game they haven't actually played. It's a solid action game, but lacking in areas that the Devil May Cry games excel at, such as enemy design, weapon variety, and fine-tuned combat. The Wind Waker was a Zelda game through and through, and has my favourite combat and enemy designs in the series. The parry mechanic worked brilliantly, compared to the weird combos you had to string together in Twilight Princess to do the same thing.
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Sep 9, 2013 23:16
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ImpAtom posted:The Japan vs US thing seems to be hitting them a lot lately. Admittedly they're pretty far from the only Japanese company to seem to have that problem. Hey, we buy games in Europe as well. You know, how the UK alone is the third biggest market in the world (and was briefly second biggest before the recession smashed us)? Admittedly, many companies in the early 2000s didn't know much about Europe either, wherein I remember one Capcom rep saying that they knew the problem existed and that they couldn't get the budget to do any better (said during a DMC3 compo that was exclusive to Americans).
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Sep 9, 2013 23:25
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Chocolate Teapot posted:Hey, we buy games in Europe as well. You know, how the UK alone is the third biggest market in the world (and was briefly second biggest before the recession smashed us)? Admittedly, many companies in the early 2000s didn't know much about Europe either, wherein I remember one Capcom rep saying that they knew the problem existed and that they couldn't get the budget to do any better (said during a DMC3 compo that was exclusive to Americans). While this is true, it's really hard to find non-European companies actually willing to design for Europeans.  It's easier to just make a US-focused game and assume they'll buy it too.
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Sep 9, 2013 23:28
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ImpAtom posted:While this is true, it's really hard to find non-European companies actually willing to design for Europeans. What exactly would a game designed for Europeans be like? Assassin's Creed is one that springs to mind, although it shouldn't necessarily be set in Europe.
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Sep 9, 2013 23:34
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That loving Sned posted:What exactly would a game designed for Europeans be like? Assassin's Creed is one that springs to mind, although it shouldn't necessarily be set in Europe. It wouldn't really be location so much as trends. If you follow Japanese or US game development, it's really easy to trace design decisions to popular trends, usually inspired by movies, television shows, books, or other popular games. If you were going to design for another country you'd look at the trends, what is popular, and try to make a game that incorporates those elements. I'm not European (and honestly that's probably too broad a term anyway) so any attempt I'd make to discuss the popular trends would probably come across like going "Well, you guys like Doctor Who and Monty Python, right?!" Designing for the US is easiest because American exports a whole loving lot of television and movies and so there's at least a fair bit of cultural similarity worldwide and they sell well enough it really doesn't matter.
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Sep 9, 2013 23:40
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That loving Sned posted:What exactly would a game designed for Europeans be like? Assassin's Creed is one that springs to mind, although it shouldn't necessarily be set in Europe. Not sure how much they're designed 'for' Europeans, but the Lords of Shadow games are developed by MercurySteam, a spanish developer. End result is various pieces of differing European folklore and Christian mythology playing off each other, whilst an orchestra bellows in the background.
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Sep 9, 2013 23:40
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Astro Nut posted:End result is various pieces of differing European folklore and Christian mythology playing off each other, whilst an orchestra bellows in the background. So, like, 95% of Western fantasy games then?
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Sep 9, 2013 23:43
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Astro Nut posted:Not sure how much they're designed 'for' Europeans, but the Lords of Shadow games are developed by MercurySteam, a spanish developer. End result is various pieces of differing European folklore and Christian mythology playing off each other, whilst an orchestra bellows in the background. I think I should go back to that game and try to think of it as a standalone Gothic fantasy, rather than a Castlevania game. It has very little in common with games like Rondo of Blood or Symphony of the Night, but when you put it like that it sounds like a game that would work better without those expectations. LittleBigPlanet feels like a very British game, and while Stephen Fry's narration and the choice of music definitely helps, the game's aesthetic reminds me of a lot of old BBC shows. Ones like Bagpuss, Thomas the Tank Engine, the Clangers, and Wallace & Gromit, which were done with puppetry and stop motion. The small scale of your character and the handmade look of the levels captures the same feeling of those shows.
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Sep 9, 2013 23:58
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ImpAtom posted:The Japan vs US thing seems to be hitting them a lot lately. Admittedly they're pretty far from the only Japanese company to seem to have that problem. Yeah I did as well, I bought it later though. It definitely would have been my choice if I'd known it was good right away.
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Sep 10, 2013 00:09
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ImpAtom posted:While this is true, it's really hard to find non-European companies actually willing to design for Europeans. A few Japanese games have a strong European influence beyond their aesthetics. Tactics Ogre: Let Us Cling Together has a strong Eastern European influence, especially the war torn Balkans, in its character names, world design, and story. Valkyria Chronicles is clearly influenced by the Western front of both World Wars. For an American example, Smoking Car Productions in San Francisco, California made The Last Express which takes place in Orient Express during the eve of WWI. However, these games are few and far between.
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Sep 10, 2013 00:12
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Sunning posted:A few Japanese games have a strong European influence beyond their aesthetics. Tactics Ogre: Let Us Cling Together has a strong Eastern European influence, especially the war torn Balkans, in its character names, world design, and story. Valkyria Chronicles is clearly influenced by the Western front of both World Wars. For an American example, Smoking Car Productions in San Francisco, California made The Last Express which takes place in Orient Express during the eve of WWI. However, these games are few and far between. Some other examples I can think of are Metroid Prime series, Killer is Dead, Brink and Destiny since the artists and writers for them clearly like Heavy Metal, Metabarons, Dylan Dog, etc. comics from Europe. That is if people are thinking in very general "what matches with the pop culture sensibilities" kind of way. Otherwise literally every AAA ever made this generation takes amateur thematic stab at both the Holocaust, the rise of Nazism and D-Day so I'm not really sure what people are talking about.
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Sep 10, 2013 00:17
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...Thinking on it, perhaps the way to sum up Lords of Shadow is that it tries - for better or for worse - to be operatic. Perhaps part of why they got on Patrick Stewart on board (aside of being, well, Patrick Stewart). A classically trained actor knows how to carry himself seriously and dramatically, whether its talking to the skull of a deceased friend or aiding another in hunting the creatures of the night. Thomas Was Alone is that sort of similarly 'quaint' game like LittleBigPlanet I'd feel from Mike Bithell, who admitted to Douglas Adams being an influence, plus getting on Danny Wallace for the narration. Oddly enough though is that perhaps the most successful European developer for video games (to my knowledge at least, in which case, I might be dead wrong) would be Rare. In which case I'd probably say that, under Nintendo at least, they rightly showed just how utterly nuts the British psyche can be. ...Thinking about it, would any of Rare's software be potentially suited to something like the Wii U? The obvious thing popping into my head is Star Fox (results may vary) with the gamepad screen potentially being a 'cockpit view' as such, depending on how might wish to play. Then again just switching camera view could probably work too there >>
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Sep 10, 2013 00:23
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Rare only did Starfox Adventures which was a terrible game. Banjo-Kazooie and Conker feel very British to me, but I can't put my finger on why. With the crude humor in Conker one wold think my brain would deafault to stereotypical American.
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Sep 10, 2013 00:40
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Flayer posted:Zelda with Dark Souls style combat but a traditional Zelda aesthetic could be interesting. Not that there's any chance of that happening but it would be a cool game. The exploration style of Ocarina of Time and Dark Souls already have quite some similarity (in fact you could argue that OoT is probably the most influential game in the eventual creation of Dark Souls). I have a feeling Demon Souls played a slightly larger influence in that. zenintrude posted:People keep clamoring for a more realistic Zelda or a darker Zelda, implying that either would make the series more mature (as in being games more befitting to the series' aging fanbase) but I'd argue that a Zelda game with Ico's (and SotC's) more ethereal and ambiguous plots would do a better job. If nothing else, it would bring Zelda back to its roots wherein you are simply a boy on a quest with very little information as to who or where you are and what you're supposed to be accomplishing... with that in mind, compare Zelda 1 to Ico and you'll see how similar they are in tone. Nintendo shot the prospect of this ever happening squarely in the head when they acknowledged, and profited from, the Zelda timeline. If they attempt to be ambiguous ay more, people will scream blue bloody murder. KittyEmpress posted:Ever since Majora's Mask I have felt like Zelda is getting worse and worse. Not suddenly or completely like Other M made Metroid, but Wind Waker was better than TP which was better than SS, all of which were better than the DS games. True dat. Majoras mask had a thematic richness to it that helped make the world feel alive and unique, which is doubly impressive for a mission pack sequel. Alteisen posted:That's every Zelda game since WW though. I seem to recall there being a game between WW and SS. Wonder how people reacted when they showed that that game wasn't cel shaded. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwMdcESljqg Oh yeah. Pigbuster posted:The most bizarre thing about the Celda business is that WW had one of the more serious storylines in the series, what with the whole world being nearly destroyed and the king of Hyrule destroying its last chance of revival. Twilight Princess, meanwhile, was almost entirely Saturday-morning-cartoon-style goofiness with a really dissonant art style, and yet most people still refer to WW as the childish one. Majoras Mask was about an insane life goddess trying to bring about the apocalypse in 3 days, and featured child abduction, living sacrifice, mass starvation, forced lobotomy, pedophilia, and a kingdom of the dead. Its all relative, man. Bruceski posted:Rare only did Starfox Adventures which was a terrible game. Banjo-Kazooie and Conker feel very British to me, but I can't put my finger on why. With the crude humor in Conker one wold think my brain would deafault to stereotypical American. Well, there's the fact that Conker keeps shifting in and out of a British accent, and calling everyone a knob.
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Sep 10, 2013 01:25
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Fulchrum posted:I have a feeling Demon Souls played a slightly larger influence in that. I would argue that King's Field probably played even more of a influence than Demon's Souls.
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Sep 10, 2013 01:37
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Lets get back to discussion about how the WiiU is doomed! http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2013-09-09-us-game-sales-to-post-first-double-digit-year-on-year-growth-since-april-11 Pikman 3 sales are estimated at 185,000 on the US.
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Sep 10, 2013 03:47
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That's not to bad.
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Sep 10, 2013 03:56
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Astro7x posted:Lets get back to discussion about how the WiiU is doomed!  185K seems decent but not great for a game on the WiiU but those numbers also definitely don't point to it being a system-seller.
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Sep 10, 2013 03:59
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Well Pikmin was never a system mover so I don't think anyone expected it to move consoles.
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Sep 10, 2013 04:01
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Alteisen posted:Well Pikmin was never a system mover so I don't think anyone expected it to move consoles. Yeah it's unfair to place the burden of moving consoles onto a game that apparently can't even move itself.
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Sep 10, 2013 04:03
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Fulchrum posted:Majoras Mask was about an insane life goddess trying to bring about the apocalypse in 3 days, and featured child abduction, living sacrifice, mass starvation, forced lobotomy, pedophilia, and a kingdom of the dead. Its all relative, man. I did say "one of"! Majora's Mask is the king in that regard, especially if you take as gospel that article about how Termina was being punished by the Triforce goddesses because its people were busy worshipping the awesome giants and their huge wangs. 
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Sep 10, 2013 05:30
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waffle posted:I can't tell if you're being sarcastic? Sarcastic. 185K looking at only boxed US retail copies is pretty good. That number doesn't include any digital downloads or other countries.
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Sep 10, 2013 05:40
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Alteisen posted:Well Pikmin was never a system mover so I don't think anyone expected it to move consoles. Again, people in this, and the other WiiU thread, literally, unironically, said that Pikmin 3 (185k) and Wonderful 101 (~10-15k) were going to save the system.
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Sep 10, 2013 05:45
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185,000 (really probably around 200k factoring in a pretty normal 10% bump for digital) would be a decent first month, but I certainly wouldn't call it good. Pikmin's sales don't really matter though, what matters is the Wii U hardware number. e: Man I didn't realize NPD numbers were out so soon. We'll find out in 2 days I suppose. My guess is that we get the same effect as in Japan: Wii U sales jump up for a week before slumping back down again, so I'd say a 50% bump over the July numbers which would be around 45k units. Last month the PS3 posted its lowest month ever at 79k. Crowbear fucked around with this message at 05:56 on Sep 10, 2013 |
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Sep 10, 2013 05:50
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Pigbuster posted:I did say "one of"! Majora's Mask is the king in that regard, especially if you take as gospel that article about how Termina was being punished by the Triforce goddesses because its people were busy worshipping the awesome giants and their huge wangs. Fact remains that it was the game that came before it. Changing the art style to be more cartoony AND being a hell of a lot lighter in tone than the previous game? How could people not think this was making it kiddier? And that theory seems to allow for something like a 10 year gap between when the gates of hell were opened, and when bad things, you know, actually happened. I just stick to a malicious life goddess and a benevolent death god choosing their champions to fight in what they see as a children's game. Or Link got tricked into falling down a deep hole in a tree stump, and the game is him hallucinating as his brains leak out, before coming to accept death rather than avoiding the fourth day. Fulchrum fucked around with this message at 06:21 on Sep 10, 2013 |
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Sep 10, 2013 06:15
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Theories about Majora's Mask are so drat interesting.
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Sep 10, 2013 12:13
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drat near everything you say sounds like you're being sarcastic. Maybe we should put that in your title. You mind? Now, as far as Pikmin 3 selling, while not bad, its not unusual for first party Nintendo games that are part of established franchises to still have a high attachment rate on the WiiU. Like, I think NSMBWU has a rate of about .6-76. No-one ever really doubted that Nintendos established franchises can sell relatively well on their own hardware.
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Sep 10, 2013 13:40
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Well just wait until Bayonetta 2! I bet it'll sell like ten million copies!
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Sep 10, 2013 15:00
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Literally no one thinks that. At most hardcore fans of the game think it will be really good.
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Sep 10, 2013 15:26
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I'm sure Bayonetta 2 will be good, but I can't imagine Nintendo is stupid enough to ride on its success. The game is not going to sell well.
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Sep 10, 2013 15:33
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Watch it sell less than Wonderful 101 somehow.
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Sep 10, 2013 15:45
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AlmightyBob posted:Watch it sell less than Wonderful 101 somehow. And that will be a depressing day in gaming.
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Sep 10, 2013 15:59
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It's an overtly adult oriented game on a family friendly console. Of course it is going to sell less than Wonderful101, which at least looks like a Nintendo game. I think it will actually outperform it in Japan, while underperforming it in other regions.
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Sep 10, 2013 16:07
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There's no way Bayonetta sells worse than W101. It's an established IP whose first game got great word of mouth has some very dedicated fans. So when Nintendo inevitably doesn't market it (which seems to be their strategy for anything that isn't Mario and Donkey Kong at this point) then at least it'll have that going for it. I don't think it'll sell well by any stretch, though. Nintendo are going to take a bath on it like they did on W101.
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Sep 10, 2013 16:18
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