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I think I heard something about pre-modern European academics actually scraping paint off classical statuary to make it 'more dignified.' True/false?
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Sep 8, 2013 16:01
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Yep. There was a belief the pure white marble statues were the ideal and some that still had intact paint were scrubbed to get rid of it. A lot of horrible poo poo was done to ancient artifacts prior to modern archaeology ideas and technologies. The entire arena in Pompeii was covered with frescoes when it was excavated. There are none now, the rain melted them all.
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Sep 8, 2013 16:07
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And more recently, the US decided to stick a military base in Iraq right on top of the ruins of Babylon  Surely they could have done it a few miles away or something? But what do I know.
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Sep 8, 2013 16:58
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SlothfulCobra posted:In fact, many of their statues were actually painted back in the day
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Sep 8, 2013 18:24
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Strategic Tea posted:And more recently, the US decided to stick a military base in Iraq right on top of the ruins of Babylon They built the base on the grounds of one of Saddam's palaces, which was itself built over portions of Babylon. The entire area there used to be parts of Babylon at various stages in its history.
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Sep 8, 2013 19:44
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Install Windows posted:They built the base on the grounds of one of Saddam's palaces, which was itself built over portions of Babylon. The entire area there used to be parts of Babylon at various stages in its history. Almost as bad; who knows what information and relics from the Baathist era of Mesopotamia were lost?
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Sep 8, 2013 19:51
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Grand Fromage posted:They probably weren't all garish, but a lot were. You can't see the paint but with modern Out of curiosity, does anyone know how this works? The evidence is clear that they painted statues, but those reconstructions are remarkably garish, especially when compared to some of the beautiful Roman frescoes and portraits. While seeing traces of the pigments would tell you what base color something was, it wouldn't necessarily show if there were more subtle variations in certain areas or additional layers that might have been applied on top.
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Sep 8, 2013 21:28
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you can find microscopic traces of the pigments and reconstruct the paint that way. So we can accurately recreate what painted statues looked like when new.
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vseslav.botkin posted:Out of curiosity, does anyone know how this works? The evidence is clear that they painted statues, but those reconstructions are remarkably garish, especially when compared to some of the beautiful Roman frescoes and portraits. While seeing traces of the pigments would tell you what base color something was, it wouldn't necessarily show if there were more subtle variations in certain areas or additional layers that might have been applied on top. Not all those were Roman, and honestly many of those frescos have aged from what they once were into the muted colors we see today.
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Sep 8, 2013 21:34
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I would think that the dudes would be aware of the concept that paints tend to fade over time, especially in direct sunlight and no protection from the wind and rain. So if you do up your statue in completely bold and garish colors, it'll quickly fade down to the colors you actually want and then stay there for a long time.
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Sep 8, 2013 21:49
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Looking at those garish colours I wonder if that wasn't done on purpose because the paint was expected to fade fairly quickly. There's probably no way to know though.
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Sep 8, 2013 21:55
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Kassad posted:Looking at those garish colours I wonder if that wasn't done on purpose because the paint was expected to fade fairly quickly. There's probably no way to know though. A lot of these painted things are pedimental sculptures and stuff, and so would have been seen from a distance and (sometimes) in dimmer lighting.
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Sep 8, 2013 22:45
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Strategic Tea posted:And more recently, the US decided to stick a military base in Iraq right on top of the ruins of Babylon      I am Saddam Hussein the Son of Nebuchadnezzar, Rebuilder of Babylon Slantedfloors fucked around with this message at 00:32 on Sep 9, 2013 |
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Sep 8, 2013 23:49
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That's sad as hell but the art is also kind of hilarious.
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Sep 9, 2013 00:33
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Ah, I was under the impression that historic parts of the site got damaged too, maybe ones incorporated into Saddam's legitimacy theme park? But Jesus Christ I had no idea he'd ruined quite it that badly. It's interesting to see eastern civilisation being ~inherited~, just as a change from the west and Rome/Greece. A documentary I saw mentioned a festival in Iran where they parade 'enemies' through the streets. Alexander the Great is still up there. Edit: Dear Leader shoots rainbows from his bow. That's some North Korea poo poo right there.
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Sep 9, 2013 00:37
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Well like, technically there was still some historically valuable stuff potentially underneath Saddam's poo poo there, but in practice the base wasn't doing anything to that that a few thousand years and Saddam hadn't already done to it. Most of what's left of Ancient Babylon is still there, outside the boundaries of Saddam's palace and half-assed reconstruction complex.
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Sep 9, 2013 00:49
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Grand Fromage posted:That's sad as hell but the art is also kind of hilarious. It is pretty depressing (and also hilarious), but at least it isn't without historic precedent. Plenty of previous leaders in history tried to jam themselves into/over the accomplishments of the past and make themselves immortal. The Saddam faces and particularly: Slantedfloors posted:I am Saddam Hussein the Son of Nebuchadnezzar, Rebuilder of Babylon Give me a nice Ozymandias vibe. Behold his works, ye mighty, and despair.
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Sep 9, 2013 01:35
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Slantedfloors posted:The section of Babylon they built the base on was actually de-listed as a World Heritage Site because Saddam had completely obliterated any historical value for it due to his "restoration" of the site as one of his palaces. He pretty much leveled all the ruins and then shittily rebuilt the portions he liked while slathering his face and name all over it. Were there surveys done of the ruins prior to his defacement? Surely it would be possible to remove his colorful additions and restore it to where it was in 1960 or thereabouts... oh, who am I kidding, it's hopeless.  edit: vvv 
Hedera Helix fucked around with this message at 02:09 on Sep 9, 2013 |
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Sep 9, 2013 01:55
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What are the worst modern archaeological disasters, anyway? I read in National Geographic a few years ago that in the Balkans (or maybe the Georgia/Dagestan region, can't remember) there's still a tendency to use bulldozers to dig gold from pre-Roman tombs.
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Sep 9, 2013 01:58
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I'm guessing that excavations were needed for foundations and the site was leveled with heavy earth-moving equipment down to the bottom of the building, which corresponds to a bit below the level of the historical stuff.
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Sep 9, 2013 01:58
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I dunno, I think Saddam's restorations are probably closer to what those things meant than the remains that would be from 1960 or whatever.
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Sep 9, 2013 03:14
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Grand Fromage posted:Yep. There was a belief the pure white marble statues were the ideal and some that still had intact paint were scrubbed to get rid of it. Did any early archeologists sketch studies of the frescoes before they were destroyed? Considering how intensely interested these guys were in Greco-Roman art there may at least be a record of what we lost...
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Sep 9, 2013 03:21
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Squalid posted:Did any early archeologists sketch studies of the frescoes before they were destroyed? Considering how intensely interested these guys were in Greco-Roman art there may at least be a record of what we lost... Similar to that, I know that Renaissance artists would be lowered down into the Golden Palace after it was rediscovered to study the art there before exposure destroyed them all, surely they must have sketched/copied what they saw while they were down there, yeah?
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Sep 9, 2013 03:24
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The Shah of Iran also took pride in ancient Persia (and who wouldn't). His personal guards were named the Immortal Guards, for instance. In 1971 he held a cosplay extravaganza in Persepolis for international guests to mark 2500th anniversary of Persian Empire.   One other tidbit is that Saddam's government used to give historical artifacts as personal gifts to heads of states. The ones I know of were dime in a dozen stuff that ended in national museum collections, but there's just something wrong with the entire concept.
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Sep 9, 2013 05:48
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Nenonen posted:One other tidbit is that Saddam's government used to give historical artifacts as personal gifts to heads of states. The ones I know of were dime in a dozen stuff that ended in national museum collections, but there's just something wrong with the entire concept. Yet in sad twist of fate those are the artifacts that survive because the ones remaining in Iraq were either destroyed or stolen  Do we have any records or knowledge about what it was like fighting the Roman legions?
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Sep 9, 2013 06:22
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Did people in various ancient societies think about/envision the future and how life would be x amount of years or centuries or whatever from them? Were there Roman futurists with ancient world equivalents of "in the future we will all have jet packs and ray guns" and whatnot?
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Sep 9, 2013 09:15
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I always feel its a great loss what little we know concretely of the Sassanid empire. This was a world power Rome considered pretty comparable at points but we just don't have the same data.
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Sep 9, 2013 10:14
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Suben posted:Did people in various ancient societies think about/envision the future and how life would be x amount of years or centuries or whatever from them? Were there Roman futurists with ancient world equivalents of "in the future we will all have jet packs and ray guns" and whatnot? I mean, there's always Revelations.
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Sep 9, 2013 12:32
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Berke Negri posted:I always feel its a great loss what little we know concretely of the Sassanid empire. This was a world power Rome considered pretty comparable at points but we just don't have the same data. Which is nothing compared to the Parthians, who we only know through scant cuneiform tablets and pottery shards. Everything else we know only from the Romans and Chinese, who thought they were selfish dicks.
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Sep 9, 2013 13:25
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/\ How mucH, if any, trade did Rome/Romans have going on with China directly? I don't recall any references to dealings with the Chinese/Romans in their respective materials and there's a shitload of deadly inhospitable terrain between even Constantinople and China, but I imagine they knew of a place where various trading intermediaries got their silk and whatnot, right?Grand Fromage posted:There was quite realistic and accurate painting. We don't have a lot of paintings because they fall apart in a way that statues don't, but look up places like the Villa of Oplontis or the House of the Vettii for some incredible preserved paintings. This is the one that apparently has a big painting of Priapus  weighing his gigantic dick against a bag of coins, right there in the entrance.Of course the image is , it's a painting of a dude with a wang the size of a cricket bat. I would imagine most people in the thread would see "Priapus" and get what's going on, but you never know who strolls in and clicks a link saying "weighing his gigantic dick..." expecting kittens.e: Lord Tywin posted:What the Saudis have done with Mecca is pretty loving atrocious. The best part is who they contracted out to do a lot of that construction. FAUXTON fucked around with this message at 12:10 on Sep 10, 2013 |
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Sep 10, 2013 12:03
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Grand Prize Winner posted:What are the worst modern archaeological disasters, anyway? I read in National Geographic a few years ago that in the Balkans (or maybe the Georgia/Dagestan region, can't remember) there's still a tendency to use bulldozers to dig gold from pre-Roman tombs. What the Saudis have done with Mecca is pretty loving atrocious.
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Sep 10, 2013 12:05
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The Entire Universe posted:/\ How mucH, if any, trade did Rome/Romans have going on with China directly? I don't recall any references to dealings with the Chinese/Romans in their respective materials and there's a shitload of deadly inhospitable terrain between even Constantinople and China, but I imagine they knew of a place where various trading intermediaries got their silk and whatnot, right? Search the thread, we've covered this one extensively. If anyone is super bored and wants to get together links to frequently asked questions, I'll update the OP.
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Sep 10, 2013 14:11
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The Entire Universe posted:/\ How mucH, if any, trade did Rome/Romans have going on with China directly? I don't recall any references to dealings with the Chinese/Romans in their respective materials and there's a shitload of deadly inhospitable terrain between even Constantinople and China, but I imagine they knew of a place where various trading intermediaries got their silk and whatnot, right? So, uh, what is the deal with dicks back then anyway? From what I understand from odds the ends throughout the thread is that big dicks were considered barbaric and that is why classical representations of the perfect man had what we would consider teeny peckers. Then you get a guy with a massive dick adorning the walls of somebodies house, dick men statues, dick themed jewellery and so on. I know ancient Romans, like us, where hot on dick graffiti but what about more mainstream dicks in art and society? Could you bring up dicks in polite conversation, could you serve your dinner guests with a goblet festooned with a nice arty dick pattern?
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Sep 10, 2013 15:24
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Berke Negri posted:I always feel its a great loss what little we know concretely of the Sassanid empire. This was a world power Rome considered pretty comparable at points but we just don't have the same data. I agree. I've been doing a bunch of reading and research on them at my Uni library. If people are interested/Grand Fromage doesn't mind, I could try writing a few effortposts on the Sassanids?
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Sep 10, 2013 15:28
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Please write Sassanid effortposts. The dicks thing has various meanings. You can read up about Priapus anywhere. Dicks were also a common magical talisman against evil of various sorts. For example, many crossroads will have a dick carved on the corner somewhere, as a protection against the danger of having two road spirits crossing each other.
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Sep 10, 2013 15:33
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Perhaps this is the reason why we still scrawl dicks everywhere today, generations passing on the dick drawing meme to their descendants until the present, when we have forgotten the mystical significance of the spurting cock. Do dicks in antiquity feature a 'glob' next to them, or is that a more recent innovation?
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Sep 10, 2013 16:13
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GIS Tintinnabulum. They are lucky windchimes, usually featuring dicks. There are a couple that are a a flying dick with its own dick, being ridden by a dick. There's one that's a guy with a giant dick who is wearing a dick hat. A man fighting his own dick, which has turned into a monster. Stuff that is WAY more interesting than the basic dick and jizz. Our dick culture has gone to hell.
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Sep 10, 2013 19:19
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I liked this vase with a giant dick I saw in the altes museum in Berlin (not my picture, just the first result on google) http://www.flickr.com/photos/carolemage/5399802696/in/set-72157625807184837/lightbox/ It was in a room dedicated to this kind of stuff, including part of the wall being covered in stone dicks. Ancient people sure loved their dicks.
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Sep 10, 2013 22:00
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The Belgian posted:I liked this vase with a giant dick I saw in the altes museum in Berlin (not my picture, just the first result on google) how germanic 
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Sep 10, 2013 22:27
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Which ancient civilization had the most impressive medical knowledge? I know the Greeks and Egyptians had some cool stuff going on, but what about Chinese, Persian, and Indian medicine? Was it only the Western world that set 'medical' standards, i.e. humors, bloodletting, etc.?
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Sep 11, 2013 01:43
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Roman/Greek medicine wasn't surpassed in most respects until the 1800s. Some things like anatomy were known better later, but just as far as being treated and not dying, you weren't going to do any better until the modern era. I live in Asia and listen to Chinese medicine bullshit constantly to this day, so I can't imagine it was terribly effective back then either (though of course, much of real medicine is derived from plants and whatnot so traditional medicine isn't entirely nonsense). I know nothing of Persian or Indian.
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Sep 11, 2013 01:55
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