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Also he was constantly an rear end in a top hat to his suit and module, good riddance. 
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Sep 7, 2013 02:50
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Strategic Tea posted:Pretty much nothing turns me against one of Banks' characters faster than that. When people start moralising about how life has no soul without suffering and injustice, from the comfort of their GSV or the ruling class of some horrible tyranny. Even Horza, who suffers plenty, is still a long shot from some civilian refugee on the receiving end of an Idiran occupation.  Banks sums it up pretty well in one of the books (I can't remember which) when he basically says that suffering and misery aren't noble, they're degrading - they don't foster strength or character, they create and then reproduce weakness and dullness.Bertrand Russell's 'In Praise of Idleness' seems appropriate: Bertrand Russell posted:Good nature is, of all moral qualities, the one that the world needs most, and good nature is the result of ease and security, not of a life of arduous struggle. Modern methods of production have given us the possibility of ease and security for all; we have chosen, instead, to have overwork for some and starvation for the others. Hitherto we have continued to be as energetic as we were before there were machines; in this we have been foolish, but there is no reason to go on being foolish for ever. Pretty much the Culture's position in a nutshell. The belief that toil and suffering give life its soul is only ever perversely self-flagellating and cynical, and/or a blatant attempt at justification of inequality and exploitation. Vanadium posted:Also he was constantly an rear end in a top hat to his suit and module, good riddance. Genar-Hofoen is easily the worst of all the Culture books' protagonists.
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Sep 7, 2013 11:25
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Barry Foster posted:Genar-Hofoen is easily the worst of all the Culture books' protagonists. He was the protagonist?
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Sep 7, 2013 17:29
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Strategic Tea posted:Pretty much nothing turns me against one of Banks' characters faster than that. When people start moralising about how life has no soul without suffering and injustice, from the comfort of their GSV or the ruling class of some horrible tyranny. Even Horza, who suffers plenty, is still a long shot from some civilian refugee on the receiving end of an Idiran occupation. Is that what Horza's reasoning was though? It's been awhile since I read it, but I thought it had more to do with turning your life over to the Minds.
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Sep 7, 2013 17:35
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From what I can recall, Horza was mostly a bigot. His various criticisms of the Culture seemed to be rationalizations for his prejudice toward their machines, and that was really the only thing he had in common with the Idirans. edit: blah, that sentence made no sense Lasting Damage fucked around with this message at 21:41 on Sep 7, 2013 |
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Sep 7, 2013 19:01
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We're kind of short on humans who actually enjoy the company of drones and other synthetics, at least when it comes to characters we spend much time with.
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Sep 7, 2013 19:22
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Toast Museum posted:We're kind of short on humans who actually enjoy the company of drones and other synthetics, at least when it comes to characters we spend much time with. Gurgeh is good friends with a drone in Player of Games, and is at least indulgently tolerant of Mawhrin-Skel. His feelings on Flere-Imsaho are totally understandable from the perspective we see, but he clearly likes drones. Vyr Cossont has a somewhat clingy sentient synthetic pet thing that she seems to care for as well. Perhaps some of the reason protagonists don't seem to like drones is that a number of the drones we spend an extended amount of time with are Contact/Special Circumstances combat/defence drones, which are understandably a bit more cutting and abrasive. Perhaps if we had more Look To Windward style books we may have seen more civilian drones just doing their thing
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Sep 7, 2013 20:25
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Yeah I can understand that impression, because the individuals these stories tend to focus on are not a good cross section of the Culture's attitudes. There seems to be plenty of minor human characters that get on great with drones/Minds and vice versa.
Lasting Damage fucked around with this message at 21:53 on Sep 7, 2013 |
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Sep 7, 2013 21:49
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Huh. Just finished Use of Weapons. Appropriately horrifying stuff. So I guess Chapter I was the only one of the reverse-order chapters to be from the perspective of the ACTUAL Zakalwe, and not Elethiomel? And Elethiomel was able to pick up where Zakalwe's life left off...somehow.
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Sep 7, 2013 22:16
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John Magnum posted:Huh. Just finished Use of Weapons. Appropriately horrifying stuff. So I guess Chapter I was the only one of the reverse-order chapters to be from the perspective of the ACTUAL Zakalwe, and not Elethiomel? And Elethiomel was able to pick up where Zakalwe's life left off...somehow. Continued big ol' Use of Weapons spoilers from above: As I understand it, the whole way along we're being told the version of events that Elethiomel remembers/made up when he had his guilt-based breakdown. This is supported by the shard of Darckense's bone he had lodged in his chest while working for the Culture, meaning there is continuity of the person the whole way, but events have gotten a bit screwed up. Where this falls down is the final chapter there as you say, but based on the continuance from Zakalwe/Elethiomel waking up in hospital after apparently shooting himself in the head, then going on to crew the sleeper ship and be a pilot on that iceworld then my theory is that Elethiomel was able to piece together enough of what happened from military intelligence/familiarity with real Zakalwe that he just plain made up those memories when he had his guilt-breakdown. It'd certainly be very strange if we're being told Elethiomel's story the whole way along, even down to the shard of bone, only for that chapter to swap perspective.
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Sep 8, 2013 01:58
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Seldom Posts posted:Is that what Horza's reasoning was though? It's been awhile since I read it, but I thought it had more to do with turning your life over to the Minds. I think that was part of it, but I'm sure I remember him thinking Culture lives were empty and meaningless with nothing to threaten them, and that they'd spread and consume the galaxy because who wouldn't want a life of ease? Looking at normal people in the Culture, just think of the sheer number of hobbies and projects that come up offhand in pretty much every book. Stuff like designing Orbital plates, or shipbuilding by hand in an empty bay aren't just passing time in paradise, they're crafts that are easily worth a lifetime of devotion. They aren't any less meaningful for not being done in the hours grabbed between earning a living or stopping the neighbours stealing your cattle. Gurgeh feels purposeless when nobody else plays to win, but it quickly becomes clear that this is more because he has something to prove and is willing to cheat against a child to do it (See also that Yay won't sleep with him). He's insecure and the one thing the Culture doesn't seem to provide is anyone willing to indulge him.
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Sep 8, 2013 03:38
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Not that the humans are the stars anyway; the most interesting characters seem to be the wittily violent SC drones and ships.
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Sep 8, 2013 21:35
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Shelvocke posted:Not that the humans are the stars anyway; the most interesting characters seem to be the wittily violent SC drones and ships. Half true. Personally speaking, the most interesting character in the Culture series is the Masaq' Hub (formerly Lasting Damage).
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Sep 8, 2013 22:44
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Shelvocke posted:Not that the humans are the stars anyway; the most interesting characters seem to be the wittily violent SC drones and ships. I really like the one ship in Hydrogen Sonata that goes up against a whole fleet using just its effectors to gently caress with their engines and weapon targeting, making them target their allies and themselves. And then it gets blown away and, though its Mind-state is saved and transmitted to other Culture ships, feels so much regret that it doesn't ever want to be a ship again.
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Sep 9, 2013 03:36
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Barry Foster posted:Half true. Personally speaking, the most interesting character in the Culture series is the Masaq' Hub (formerly Lasting Damage). Agreed, and my favourite character; and notably not really wittily violent, war duty notwithstanding.
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Sep 9, 2013 04:23
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I would swear I saw a Banks quote addressing (and utterly rejecting) the idea that suffering is good for a person, but I can't find it. Did I hallucinate it?
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Sep 9, 2013 07:15
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Pope Guilty posted:I would swear I saw a Banks quote addressing (and utterly rejecting) the idea that suffering is good for a person, but I can't find it. Did I hallucinate it? No, it's the same one I was indirectly referencing earlier. Damned if I can find it, though.
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Sep 9, 2013 11:32
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MikeJF posted:Agreed, and my favourite character; and notably not really wittily violent, war duty notwithstanding. 800 years of being a genteel hub mind might iron out those good old SC quirks.
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Sep 9, 2013 21:42
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Shelvocke posted:800 years of being a genteel hub mind might iron out those good old SC quirks. The best bit of LTW is that GCU that rolls up and starts flying through the ring and using its gravity to steal a bit of the orbital's atmosphere while Hub tells it to gently caress off. And they all know he'll let them get away with it because he used to be a ship too 
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Sep 10, 2013 15:37
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Strategic Tea posted:The best bit of LTW is that GCU that rolls up and starts flying through the ring and using its gravity to steal a bit of the orbital's atmosphere while Hub tells it to gently caress off. And they all know he'll let them get away with it because he used to be a ship too You mean the Experiencing A Significant Gravitas Shortfall?  Strategic Tea posted:He's insecure and the one thing the Culture doesn't seem to provide is anyone willing to indulge him.
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Sep 11, 2013 10:50
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They wanted the perfect representative of the Culture, to demonstrate their total superiority over Azad at their own game. Of course they chose someone who cheats. The Culture cheats like a motherfucker, just look at Surface Detail.
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Sep 11, 2013 12:23
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Barry Foster posted:No, it's the same one I was indirectly referencing earlier. Damned if I can find it, though. Not sure if it's what you're thinking of, but there is an exchange between two guests at the party at the beginning of Look To Windward that touches on this.
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Sep 11, 2013 12:51
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Gravitas Shortfall posted:If they just needed a supremely talented game player, why not choose the young (female) prodigy? It'd send a strong, if not stronger message to have the Emperor defeated by a woman. The girl could only play the one game to such a high level though, and Gurgeh was still going to win without cheating, just not achieve the full web. She's also a new and relatively unknown quantity. Gurgeh was an experienced and consummately versatile player and so the best choice to play a new, varied and very complex game.
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Sep 11, 2013 12:55
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I figure any SC mission that involves a human is at least in part about that human being some Mind's pet project, because otherwise why not use avatars for this stuff?
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Sep 11, 2013 13:26
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Gravitas Shortfall posted:It does, however, "fix" him. If they just needed a supremely talented game player, why not choose the young (female) prodigy? It'd send a strong, if not stronger message to have the Emperor defeated by a woman. The Minds involved have clearely chosen Gurgeh for his personal education/betterment, as well as to further their own ends. Mawhrin-Skel's offer to cheat wasn't just a blackmail setup, it was also a test of Gurgeh's character. Toast Museum posted:I figure any SC mission that involves a human is at least in part about that human being some Mind's pet project, because otherwise why not use avatars for this stuff? Tuxedo Catfish posted:They wanted the perfect representative of the Culture, to demonstrate their total superiority over Azad at their own game. Of course they chose someone who cheats. The Culture cheats like a motherfucker, just look at Surface Detail. Best thing about all this is that you could easily argue these reasons are all correct at the same. Minds are so smart they can plot the efficient overthrow of an unjust empire, reconvert a disaffected citizen back to their ideology, and make the whole thing a metaphorical statement about their ethos in one clever game. This is what they do with their free time.
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Sep 11, 2013 20:29
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Lasting Damage posted:Best thing about all this is that you could easily argue these reasons are all correct at the same. Minds are so smart they can plot the efficient overthrow of an unjust empire, reconvert a disaffected citizen back to their ideology, and make the whole thing a metaphorical statement about their ethos in one clever game. It's noted more than once that they do it because they're bored. The fuckers.
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Sep 11, 2013 22:04
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Shelvocke posted:It's noted more than once that they do it because they're bored. The fuckers. Think of it as charity 
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Sep 11, 2013 22:31
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I think the events of Excession lend weight to this theory, considering Genar-Hofoen is completely surplus to the Mind's plan to deal with the situation, and is only involved because the Sleeper Service's wants to help Dajeil out of her decades-long depression. Only a Mind would take the chance of derailing a critically important, potentially Culture-changing event just to tie up some personal loose ends.
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Sep 12, 2013 09:51
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Gravitas Shortfall posted:I think the events of Excession lend weight to this theory, considering Genar-Hofoen is completely surplus to the Mind's plan to deal with the situation, and is only involved because the Sleeper Service's wants to help Dajeil out of her decades-long depression. Hey, Sleeper Service is eccentric so it can get away with whatever the gently caress it wants.
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Sep 12, 2013 17:58
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gender illusionist posted:Hey, Sleeper Service is eccentric so it can get away with whatever the gently caress it wants.
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Sep 12, 2013 20:02
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Gravitas Shortfall posted:I think the events of Excession lend weight to this theory, considering Genar-Hofoen is completely surplus to the Mind's plan to deal with the situation, and is only involved because the Sleeper Service's wants to help Dajeil out of her decades-long depression. I think you have persuaded me it's time to reread this book.
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Sep 12, 2013 20:26
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big scary monsters posted:Or is it? It said it thought it ended up turning itself slightly eccentric by indulging it's neurose, ie it's obsession with the Genar/Dajeil relationship, in an attempt to appear Eccentric. Phew!
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Sep 12, 2013 22:09
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Rereading Hydrogen Sonata, and I recall what bothered me about it before; you never really, really find out what the gently caress Subliming is.
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Sep 16, 2013 15:29
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Shelvocke posted:Rereading Hydrogen Sonata, and I recall what bothered me about it before; you never really, really find out what the gently caress Subliming is. Well, we find out it basically means leaving this plain of existence and sort of simultaneously existing in multiple embedded dimensions or something. But it's a good thing Banks never actually describes what the Sublime is like, since the whole point of it is that it's ineffable to our puny brains. Having the enormously detailed and endlessly subtle interactions between practically omniscient godlike Minds written as IM chat is already pushing it far enough, I think.
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Sep 16, 2013 16:09
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Barry Foster posted:Having the enormously detailed and endlessly subtle interactions between practically omniscient godlike Minds written as IM chat is already pushing it far enough, I think. Wasn't that explained as there being limited bandwidth between minds that are far away?
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Sep 16, 2013 16:30
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Those Minds probably found Earth and, on intercepting some IRC webchat, decided it was hilariously limited and impossibly quaint. I.e. perfect for discussing the future of the galaxy, at least until the fashion moved on to interpretive dance.
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Sep 16, 2013 16:42
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wins32767 posted:Wasn't that explained as there being limited bandwidth between minds that are far away? We're still seeing very dumbed-down interpretations of complex high-level communication states.
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Sep 17, 2013 01:43
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MikeJF posted:We're still seeing very dumbed-down interpretations of complex high-level communication states. Yes, but using a usenet style for that text is a way of representing that limitation by way of analogy.
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Sep 17, 2013 01:51
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It's reassuring to know that even among godlike AI starships, there are still bad posters.
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Sep 17, 2013 01:58
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By that reasoning, Meatfucker is the brony of the group.
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Sep 17, 2013 02:05
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