|
Felisin IS awful. Tavore is pretty much a blank slate so not much hate from me there.
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2013 23:54
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 14, 2024 20:53 |
|
|
I'm rereading House of Chains.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2013 00:01
|
|
|
amuayse posted:Gosh, does Erickson purposely try to make you hate the Paran siblings and the Bridgeburners? I felt like Felisin was one of the better written characters even though you hated her and hated reading her parts. Tavore is kind of interesting as she develops and you hopefully find more out about her purposes
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2013 01:32
|
|
|
I just feel like Ganoes Paran never really gets that much more interesting personality-wise, no matter how many superpowers he got because he was always bitterly moaning about how miserable he was. His romance with Silverfox felt sort of forced too.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2013 02:20
|
|
|
Ganoes is definitely the weakest Paran, not at all helped by completely vanishing for 6 books, more or less. Felisin I think was written well, in tragic style. Her arc is brutal. Tavore is kind of quirky anti-hero, not in the typical anti-hero sense, but more in that she doesn't display any heroic qualities or actions whatsoever except for an implacable will to achieve her goal, which is all fine and heroic, but usually has some deeds attached to it, see: the incredible arc of Yedan Deryg. Tavore is made worse for the idea that there's a mysterious revelation in the future for her, but more or less, she's an autistic carrying out an impossible task, and her binding will makes it happen, and there's no real wrenching feelin of achievement despite the grim circumstances of the outcome. She just kind of stands there like "Yep, we did it."
|
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2013 19:42
|
|
|
Well there were people who liked Rei in Evangelion, so I'm sure people liked Tavore.
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2013 02:53
|
|
|
Loving Life Partner posted:Ganoes is definitely the weakest Paran, not at all helped by completely vanishing for 6 books, more or less. While she didn't react much to freeing the Crippled God her crying in her brother's arms about losing their sister was probably one of my favorite scenes in the series.
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2013 03:09
|
|
|
Loving Life Partner posted:Ganoes is definitely the weakest Paran, not at all helped by completely vanishing for 6 books, more or less. I mean....she was like three quarters dead, so... I didn't think Tavore was one of the highlights of the series, but I thought she was a good character. All of the Parans are, I think, well-written. Ganoes comes off as annoying for a while because he does moan about his new role, but that's all foreshadowed in GotM where he basically says that's the type of person he is. When he reappears in the books after his absence, he's got a much better grip on what he needs to be in his new role. Felisin is, as mentioned, a tragic story that doesn't leave you much choice but to hate (and pity) her. Tavore is largely an enigma even at the end, but I didn't get the feeling of 'an autist leading an army' or whatever. She is a person who has undertaken an incredible responsibility and knows the road ahead of her is so absolutely hopeless that she's scared completely shitless to share it with anyone.
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2013 06:09
|
|
|
Also: I finally hit upon earlier today what annoyed me more than anything about Orb, Sceptre, Throne - ICE starts off the novel with a mention of Karsa residing in a canyon or something not far outside Darujistan, the book is in large part about a Seguleh invasion of Darujistan, and yet there was no encounter between Karsa and any of the Seguleh. drat was that a case of serious blue balls or what.
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2013 06:22
|
|
|
amuayse posted:Well there were people who liked Rei in Evangelion, so I'm sure people liked Tavore. Oh man, this makes me want to contine reading this series, just to get what you mean.
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2013 13:44
|
|
|
I've only finished the second book so far, but I really liked Felisin's parts. Dude pulled absolutely zero loving punches when writing that it feels like.
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2013 14:37
|
|
|
Habibi posted:Also: I finally hit upon earlier today what annoyed me more than anything about Orb, Sceptre, Throne - ICE starts off the novel with a mention of Karsa residing in a canyon or something not far outside Darujistan, the book is in large part about a Seguleh invasion of Darujistan, and yet there was no encounter between Karsa and any of the Seguleh. I agree with this. It was explained away as 'and people think it is haunted so they don't go near it.' Dumb. I am rereading OST now and if you skip the Kiska and Leoman parts the book flows much more smoothly. I don't hate it as much as I did the first time. The characters aren't written as well as Eriksons, but without Kiska and Leoman the book is much better. I didnt miss anything important by doing that either, did I?
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2013 15:15
|
|
|
Spermy Smurf posted:I agree with this. It was explained away as 'and people think it is haunted so they don't go near it.' Dumb. Except it was even more dumb, because what concern would invading Seguleh have for local peasant rumors? quote:I am rereading OST now and if you skip the Kiska and Leoman parts the book flows much more smoothly. I don't hate it as much as I did the first time. The characters aren't written as well as Eriksons, but without Kiska and Leoman the book is much better. I didnt miss anything important by doing that either, did I? Not really, though that may hinge on how you define important. I mentioned in my original review of OST, a page or two back, that I mostly enjoyed the book but that the Leoman/Kiska storyline was pretty awful. You learn some interesting things, though. Nothing that I would call crucial, but certainly interesting. Habibi fucked around with this message at 21:43 on Sep 15, 2013 |
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2013 21:17
|
|
|
Spermy Smurf posted:I agree with this. It was explained away as 'and people think it is haunted so they don't go near it.' Dumb. All of ICE's books would hugely benefit from paring down the story-lines and focusing on a smaller cast than Erikson. It's sort of silly that he doesn't try something at least a little bit different in the setting.
|
|
#
?
Sep 16, 2013 10:58
|
|
|
It kind of bugged me that GotM was such a big drag on the rest of the series. Whiskeyjack, Quickben, Ganoes, and even the Bridgeburners as a whole deserved more interesting personalities. Erickson initially characterizing the BB as "they're badass, they're cool, and they don't follow the rules" didn't really do them much favors in having interesting depth. Memories of Ice sorta rectified this a little though. amuayse fucked around with this message at 14:15 on Sep 16, 2013 |
|
#
?
Sep 16, 2013 14:04
|
|
|
amuayse posted:It kind of bugged me that GotM was such a big drag on the rest of the series. Whiskeyjack, Quickben, Ganoes, and even the Bridgeburners as a whole deserved more interesting personalities. I would say that most of the books, individually, don't do a very good job of giving depth to the BBs (or many other characters). The cast is too large to really allow for that in many cases. And for practical purposes, 'they're badass they're cool and they don't follow the rules" is not a bad foundation for the BBs, since those are their simplest and most easily related characteristics. Honestly, I think Gardens gets too much poo poo. It's not as well written for obvious reasons, but it's also a bit of a unique novel in having to set up a completely blank slate.
|
|
#
?
Sep 16, 2013 19:03
|
|
|
I liked what Erickson did with Karsa and his two buddies. But a good chunk of the book was dedicated solely to their adventures and Karsa slowly becoming less of a dick and more mature.
|
|
#
?
Sep 16, 2013 20:45
|
|
|
I really liked Karsa's development over the length of the series. Though, my absolute favorite part about Karsa is at the end of HoC, where somebody says something that paraphrases down to "Wait what? Karsa killed a Hound? Why the gently caress would he do that?! ...nevermind. Because he's Karsa, that's why."
|
|
#
?
Sep 16, 2013 21:48
|
|
|
amuayse posted:I liked what Erickson did with Karsa and his two buddies. But a good chunk of the book was dedicated solely to their adventures and Karsa slowly becoming less of a dick and more mature. He is also the only character in the series that gets that treatment. And not unlike the Bridgeburners and MoI, if you take HoC out of the picture, Karsa loses a lot of depth.
|
|
#
?
Sep 16, 2013 23:46
|
|
|
The Nehemoth got their own books, but they only had a cameo in MoI sadly.
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2013 01:23
|
|
|
Speaking of, the Wurms of Blearmouth is pretty drat good so far (I'm about three quarters through it).
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2013 02:16
|
|
Khizan posted:I really liked Karsa's development over the length of the series. The bit of prose that may stick with me most from the entire series is someone spotting Karsa at the She'ik's camp after he killed the hounds and tied their heads to his jhag steed and flying across the desert with ghosts chained to him, just, god drat
|
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2013 02:23
|
|
|
I also like the part that goes something like:quote:Karsa: 'I've decided that the Malazans are no longer my enemy.'
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2013 02:47
|
|
|
We could probably post dope Karsa quotes for a month and not run out.
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2013 16:02
|
|
|
CaptainJuan posted:We could probably post dope Karsa quotes for a month and not run out. I don't think he has enough dialogue to allow that. Most of the cool Karsa stuff tends, IMO, to be written or said about him rather than by him.
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2013 16:28
|
|
|
Habibi posted:I don't think he has enough dialogue to allow that. Most of the cool Karsa stuff tends, IMO, to be written or said about him rather than by him. Agreed that his actions are badass. Most of them are preceeded by "Witness." as well.
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2013 16:36
|
|
|
I read the OP. I am leaving in twenty minutes for a long, long trip and need a lot to read. What I take away from the OP is that book 2 is better, but that bits of the overall experience will be less enjoyable if I start there. Do I understand that right? I have no idea if I will like the series or not, though it seems like it might be my kind of books, so if #2 is better, I am tempted to start there. Should I start with book 1 or 2?
|
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2013 16:58
|
|
|
I started with #1, and while I had to power through the early parts a bit, I was pretty solidly hooked by about halfway through. With that said, #2 is the better-written book but #1 isn't outright terrible or anything.
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2013 17:00
|
|
|
Do I have to deal with tolkinesque levels of ridiculous with huge numbers of usual names thrown at me with no development or context, so that I am unable to keep track of what is going on? I can handle a book which is... less than artfully written as long as I can keep track of what is actually going on.
|
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2013 17:07
|
|
|
Basically a lot of stuff (including names) will get thrown at you with only slight exposition and won't get revisited for some time either. This is a very complex world with a bunch of different races and cities and gods and types of magic, and Erikson doesn't slow down the bus much to tell you all about them. My advice is to just keep reading as things come, don't get discouraged if you're unsure of exactly what's going on, and eventually you'll encounter stuff that was only briefly mentioned earlier and you'll feel like a boss for recognizing some of it. In terms of plotting, Gardens of the Moon is the "crazier" book with a little bit of everything from the world. Deadhouse Gates is a lot more straightforward if also a very wild ride. Again, I did Gardens first and while I struggled with the early parts a little, things really started to click for me around a third of the way through and after that I couldn't put it down. The Ninth Layer fucked around with this message at 17:15 on Sep 18, 2013 |
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2013 17:12
|
|
|
Start with Gardens of the Moon (the first book). It's not as good as the others because Erikson later developed into a better author and his ideas of the world became a bit more refined than what you encounter early on, but it's still better than the majority of fantasy books.
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2013 17:57
|
|
|
Just remember: No one's really evil, even the Pannion Seer. He just had mommy issues.
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2013 18:22
|
|
|
amuayse posted:Just remember: No one's really evil, even the Pannion Seer. He just had mommy issues. Karos Invictad and Tanal Yathvanar were pretty much just evil.
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2013 18:59
|
|
|
Yeah I dunno Raest was pretty evil too. Or maybe just a giant dick
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2013 22:05
|
|
|
E: ^^^ Cat lover; couldn't be all bad.Sir Bruce posted:Karos Invictad and Tanal Yathvanar were pretty much just evil. Both were theorized to have parent and childhood issues. Even Kallor couldn't be said to not have a shred of humanity in him. Because he does. Exactly that one.
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2013 23:08
|
|
|
Errastas is pretty evil... FoD spoilers about magic. From reading the book again I get the impression that there are two kinds of magic, only that the distinction is Holds/Warrens. The Azathanai are obviously capable of doing magic innately and it seems like Jaghut also have this ability, so I guess we can still call some magic Elder. But remember, even before the book has started Krull has done his sacrifice/gift and created magic for all. Illgast Rend seems to be one of the first Tiste to explore it becoming a master of Denul. But Omtose Phellack is a city, not elder magic. Errastas seems to be really pissed about magic being freely available. Something that previously was restricted to the Azathanai (and maybe some others like Jaghut or Thel Akai). He is really proud of using Krull's gift to slay the Hood's wife and escape the scene of the crime. Later he is seen shoving stone tiles into the bodies of slain Jaghut in Omtose Phellack! I believe this is how Holds came to be, Errastas wants to give magic a cost and so starts to associate it with blood (and himself) he binds it to these tiles. And thus we have the Master of Tiles/Holds Errastas. Before I thought that Warrens were weaker than Holds, but more refined. Now I believe that in his bargain with Gothos "freezing" what would become Lether in time Krull "trapped" Errastas causing his influence on magic do weaken which leads to the "awakening" of the warrens.
|
|
#
?
Sep 19, 2013 11:21
|
|
|
Habibi posted:E: ^^^ Cat lover; couldn't be all bad. Nah that only proves my point
|
|
#
?
Sep 19, 2013 14:35
|
|
|
I'm curious how many people who recommend reading book two before book one actually did so themselves, or if they're thinking about it after the fact. Regardless of whether book one is confusing or poorly written - at least compared to the later books - I can't imagine starting on book two in a series would do you any favours or leave you any less confused, albeit for different reasons. In my mind there's a difference between deliberately leaving out information (the way Erikson wrote GotM) and missing it entirely because you simply didn't read the preceding 700 pages.
|
|
#
?
Sep 19, 2013 14:52
|
|
|
Well there's less spontaneous outbursts of purple prose philsophy as the series goes on. Which was kind of weird, because a lot of the characters are uneducated soldiers.
|
|
#
?
Sep 19, 2013 15:52
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 14, 2024 20:53 |
|
|
amuayse posted:Well there's less spontaneous outbursts of purple prose philsophy as the series goes on. Which was kind of weird, because a lot of the characters are uneducated soldiers. Do you mean more, not less? Because by book 8 the reverse is definitely true. Dunno if it started ramping up before that, because I don't remember most of BH besides the first section, and RG had Tehol and Bugg so it was all good. I think my favorite book is MT, with MoI and DG right behind. If you took out Udinaas and Hull it would be even better though. Though I don't think Udinaas bothered me until RG, so maybe it was just the Boring Beddict I didn't like. bigmcgaffney fucked around with this message at 20:38 on Sep 19, 2013 |
|
#
?
Sep 19, 2013 20:35
|
|