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IM_DA_DECIDER posted:I don't know about other people, but in a real fight with pointy objects I'd go for the right-of-way parry-riposte instead of the gently caress everything counter attack that ends in everyone getting stabbed. Right-of-way, in sport fencing, is an actual rule in foil and saber, but not epee. Parry-riposte is a good tactic, and it's one I do quite a lot. It's just that (again, in foil and saber) if your opponent extends his arm first, he has right-of-way. If you do some sort of counter which hits successfully but doesn't gain you right of way, then you don't get a point for it. That occurence is rather rare, but it is a thing that can happen.
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Sep 15, 2013 17:32
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Railtus posted:It is Greek hoplite combat trying to be Kung Fu Theatre. Going by one of the youtube comments (Yeah, I know...): It's NOT Greek Style fighting it's actually mainly choreographed from a sword style from Thailand called Krabi krabong. Wouldn't surprise me if it was true, however (because Hollywood loves that poo poo). Also, I guess Hector is supposed to be kind of poo poo compared to Achielles anyhow, so the easiest way to portray that is to have him job completely instead of putting Brad Pitt through years of intense training.
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Sep 15, 2013 22:18
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Pimpmust posted:Also, I guess Hector is supposed to be kind of poo poo compared to Achielles anyhow, so the easiest way to portray that is to have him job completely instead of putting Brad Pitt through years of intense training.
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Sep 15, 2013 22:35
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Isn't Achilles supposed to be some kind of human god-of-war though? On one side you have a great fighter and on the other you have the unstoppable Terminator.
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Sep 15, 2013 22:46
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veekie posted:Isn't Achilles supposed to be some kind of human god-of-war though? On one side you have a great fighter and on the other you have the unstoppable Terminator.
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Sep 15, 2013 22:49
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HEGEL CURES THESES posted:He's not, he's Troy's greatest fighter and the only way Achilles beats him at the end is through divine aid. Hektor is supposed to be a complete badass. To the movie's credit it did away with most of the gods and magic type stuff so there wasn't really a device to show that Achilles won because Poseidon karate chopped Hector's aura or whatever.
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Sep 15, 2013 22:50
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Novum posted:...Achilles won because Poseidon karate chopped Hector's aura or whatever.
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Sep 15, 2013 22:54
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Buried alive posted:Right-of-way, in sport fencing, is an actual rule in foil and saber, but not epee. Parry-riposte is a good tactic, and it's one I do quite a lot. It's just that (again, in foil and saber) if your opponent extends his arm first, he has right-of-way. If you do some sort of counter which hits successfully but doesn't gain you right of way, then you don't get a point for it. That occurence is rather rare, but it is a thing that can happen. I was always under the impression that right of way is meant to encourage foil- and saberists to actually defend themselves, as if they were being threatened with real weapons. Otherwise there's nothing stopping you from just attacking into your opponent's attack kamikaze style, which would end badly for everyone if real weapons were involved. And as I have never come across a situation like this, when would you ever not get a point for correctly touching your opponent just because they had the right of way (unless of course their attack was on target)? married but discreet fucked around with this message at 23:17 on Sep 15, 2013 |
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Sep 15, 2013 23:11
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HEGEL CURES THESES posted:He's not, he's Troy's greatest fighter and the only way Achilles beats him at the end is through divine aid. Hektor is supposed to be a complete badass. Yeah achilles on top of the whole "dipped in the river stix and given armor forged by a god" needed divine intervention to beat Hector. What Im saying is that hector is the real hero of the Iliad
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Sep 16, 2013 02:25
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Agean90 posted:Yeah achilles on top of the whole "dipped in the river stix and given armor forged by a god" needed divine intervention to beat Hector. Diomedes.  (Actually, Diomedes is bland as gently caress, Hector definitely better as a character.)
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Sep 16, 2013 06:29
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Agean90 posted:Yeah achilles on top of the whole "dipped in the river stix and given armor forged by a god" needed divine intervention to beat Hector. More historically, I thought it was likely that he's just so great a fighter he developed a reputation for invulnerability. Or he had really good PR dudes.
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Sep 16, 2013 09:43
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veekie posted:More historically, I thought it was likely that he's just so great a fighter he developed a reputation for invulnerability. Not a classicist, though, could be wrong.
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Sep 16, 2013 09:49
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I think the word 'historically' might be a bit muddy when talking about the Iliad. I'm not entirely sure but I was under the impression there is no clear answer whether the Trojan war took place at all.
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Sep 16, 2013 09:50
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HEGEL CURES THESES posted:While there was a historical Troy, and while it could be true that there was a historical conflict associated with it, by now what we have is an epic poem, in which myth has overlaid reality. I don't know if we'll ever find out if there was a "historical" Achilles or what kind of person he was. So the myth is what we have, wire-fu gods and all. Point. For all we know it could be the script for a play.
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Sep 16, 2013 09:52
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Namarrgon posted:I think the word 'historically' might be a bit muddy when talking about the Iliad. I'm not entirely sure but I was under the impression there is no clear answer whether the Trojan war took place at all. It's accepted that a Trojan War seems historically likely. Whether the Trojan War happened is another matter. For what it's worth, though, Homer got a lot of geographic details of the Hisarlik region right according to the latest archeology. As for Achilles, it's certainly a genuine Mycenaean name. Vincent Van Goatse fucked around with this message at 11:03 on Sep 16, 2013 |
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Sep 16, 2013 11:01
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Considering that wars broke out at the drop of a hat back then, there's no doubt that the city they think corresponds to Troy had some major bloodshed around it. Still, have any of the other names in the Iliad been corroborated by other sources? (I can't want to see what  thinks of this discussion of the historicity of the Iliad.)
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Sep 16, 2013 11:08
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Sexgun Rasputin posted:Awesome. I don't think there are any better movie swordfights than the duel at the end of Rob Roy, but I thought this movie did Medieval violence pretty well: Ah, Ironclad. The movie with fantasy Vikings magically transported to the 13th century.
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Sep 16, 2013 11:32
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veekie posted:Point. For all we know it could be the script for a play. The Iliad is an epic poem. I'm pretty sure it predates greek plays. Also, the whole Achilles "invincible, dipped in the river by one heel" thing is never mentioned in the Iliad; that's from other stories. Hector is totally the hero of the story. That's why it ends when he dies, and not when Achilles does. I have heard theories that Hector wasn't even in earlier stories about the Trojan war (hence why some of the numbers don't really fit, Paris seems to be about twenty years older than his brother) and Homer invented him so he could do more interesting things with Paris than just "total bro, kills Achilles at the end".
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Sep 16, 2013 11:35
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IM_DA_DECIDER posted:I was always under the impression that right of way is meant to encourage foil- and saberists to actually defend themselves, as if they were being threatened with real weapons. Otherwise there's nothing stopping you from just attacking into your opponent's attack kamikaze style, which would end badly for everyone if real weapons were involved. Bolded for emphasis because that's how right-of-way is defined. If you don't have right-of-way, you cannot score a point. The most common situation that comes to mind is when there's a range difference. Initiator extends (he has right of way) and lunges. The other person (with slightly longer arms, say) goes for a stop thrust and successfully hits first. Then likely gets touched by the guy who initiated since the other person didn't really defend himself. The way that would be resolved in my group is that since the counter never took right-of-way from the initiator, no points are awarded. You also don't really see (intentional) kamikaze attacks even in epee where there is no right-of-way. Mostly because I imagine doing so leaves you open and they'd hit first anyway. To be fair to all this, a successful parry or dodge gives the defender right-of-way, so it's not like the rule doesn't make sense at all. All I'm saying is that in an actual fight, right-of-way might exist as a tactical concept or something, but it doesn't have the same ontological weight as the actual rule in sport fencing.
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Sep 16, 2013 20:20
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:It's accepted that a Trojan War seems historically likely. Whether the Trojan War happened is another matter. For what it's worth, though, Homer got a lot of geographic details of the Hisarlik region right according to the latest archeology. We probably need to dynamite the truth out of the ruins so more. Also, I thought that the Iliad and odessy are two parts of a larger epic cycle? Which is why they don't cover the actual fall, Achilles' death, the fate of the surviving greeks in those two works.
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Sep 16, 2013 20:28
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:As for Achilles, it's certainly a genuine Mycenaean name.
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Sep 16, 2013 21:33
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HEGEL CURES THESES posted:It also means "tribal grief" or "the grief of the corps," so there may be some symbolism going on there as well. Assuming those aren't false etymologies. The recorded Mycenaean Achilles was a shepherd, though heaven alone knows how many other people had that name prior to the end of the Bronze Age.
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Sep 16, 2013 23:20
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Buried alive posted:Bolded for emphasis because that's how right-of-way is defined. If you don't have right-of-way, you cannot score a point. The most common situation that comes to mind is when there's a range difference. Initiator extends (he has right of way) and lunges. The other person (with slightly longer arms, say) goes for a stop thrust and successfully hits first. Then likely gets touched by the guy who initiated since the other person didn't really defend himself. To expand on this (since I just got back from a tournament and I love yakking about fencing minutiae) in the scenario described the fencer with right-of-way (the initiator here) would still be awarded the point even though his opponent executed a successful stop-thrust. The attack landed in time, both lights go off, and the point is awarded to the initiating fencer. If the attack landed off-target, and the stop-thrust counter landed on target then no points are awarded since even though the counter was on target that fencer did not have right-of-way and can't score. Here's where things start to get wacky. If the defending fencer has crazy-long monkey arms or a really good retreat and executes the counter causing only his light to go off, right-of-way doesn't matter because the other fencer's light didn't go off. If only one touch is registered, that fencer scores that point regardless of right-of-way. Sort of a way to keep things honest and punish missing or falling short. Speaking of falling short, one of the weirder ways that you can lose right-of-way is to complete your attack and keep your point extended. As an epeeist, I do that all the time in order to pick up points on counter-attacks and keep my opponent from getting one themselves by attacking into my recovery. In foil though, once your attack is over (lunge complete, arm fully extended ideally) that's it. You don't have right-of-way anymore. Your opponent can completely ignore the weapon and launch their own attack with right-of-way that you have to respond to, and leaving your weapon extended or pressing forward doesn't count. Parry or die. Right-of-way is pretty nutty. It's partially why I'm an epee fencer. And even though it's not at all like actual duelling of the past, it's still an incredibly fun sport (and defintly a workout!) and I like to think a decent amount of the attitude, vocabulary, and even techniques pay homage to their origins. After all, a parry is still a parry even though the target & timing are totally different.
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Sep 17, 2013 00:22
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Alekanderu posted:Ah, Ironclad. The movie with fantasy Vikings magically transported to the 13th century. And King John loved the Templars and won the siege of Rochester. It is a silly movie but it has some excellent old timey people stabbing each other action. Other than that it is boring and dumb.
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Sep 17, 2013 00:55
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Phobophilia posted:(I can't want to see what I'd like to see that too, but alas: http://forums.somethingawful.com/member.php?s=&action=getinfo&userid=183787 I think my first post was a reply to him. We really should have kept him around as a History thread jester. Speaking of jesters: was it really customary that they could speak their mind to the king, or is that made up by later playwrights?
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Sep 17, 2013 01:24
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Hogge Wild posted:I'd like to see that too, but alas: http://forums.somethingawful.com/member.php?s=&action=getinfo&userid=183787 And following that question: What would a general night of feasting entail?
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Sep 17, 2013 01:32
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Hogge Wild posted:I'd like to see that too, but alas: http://forums.somethingawful.com/member.php?s=&action=getinfo&userid=183787 You could go ask Agelsilaus/Grumblefish at t H E r H i z z o n E .net, the lf offshoot where all the fascists and Church Militant hang out.
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Sep 17, 2013 04:15
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Squalid posted:You could go ask Agelsilaus/Grumblefish at t H E r H i z z o n E .net, the lf offshoot where all the fascists and Church Militant hang out. And that dude made me legitimately angry, but that's because due to my background I have serious feelings any time anyone lectures me on the inferiority of women or the lower classes. I had to leave a few threads he was in.  I'm glad he's gone.
HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 05:36 on Sep 17, 2013 |
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Sep 17, 2013 05:28
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Grumblefish is an English prosecutor working in America and one time literally asked a judge to mete out the maximum allowable sentence because "I consulted the victim and in the liver was engorged with blood, indicating the triumph of virtue." He gets paid to own young black men repeatedly with Legalist/Aristotelean philosophy. Basically he owns.
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Sep 17, 2013 07:18
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Spergy naming convention question: Why was the Kingdom of Jerusalem the Kingdom of Jerusalem and not, say, the Kingdom of Judea or the Kingdom of Palestine? The latter two names refer to regions, the former refers to a city. Was naming Outremer polities after cities (Jerusalem, Antioch, Tripoli) rather than regions a normal thing? If the Crusaders had managed to become wildly more successful, would we have read about the Crusader kingdoms of Egypt, Syria, Mesopotamia, etc., or the kingdoms of Alexandria, Damascus, Mosul, etc.?
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Sep 17, 2013 15:15
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Squalid posted:Grumblefish is an English prosecutor working in America and one time literally asked a judge to mete out the maximum allowable sentence because "I consulted the victim and in the liver was engorged with blood, indicating the triumph of virtue." He gets paid to own young black men repeatedly with Legalist/Aristotelean philosophy. Basically he owns. Wait, what?
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Sep 17, 2013 15:24
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A couple of questions I will get back to, because they would require a bit more research.Babe Magnet posted:Oh, oh! My turn! Speaking of Kung Fu Theater, here's one of my favorite sword fighting scenes: First of all, the music goes SO well with this video I hate having to stop it to comment. Rapier or smallsword style fencing is not my strong suit, but I’ll give it a go. Fencer Guy vs Jet Li. The rolling of blades it starts off with is jockeying for position, the idea is you want to deflect their point with the strong of your blade (near the hilt, where you have more leverage) while still being able to thrust at them. There is a long thrust at 1:03, using the full extension of the Fencer’s reach as his main defence while trying to get past his guard. Stretching out now gives Jet Li the leverage advantage, and that small movement shoves the Fencer’s blade off-line and down low, and then cuts high. The distance, however, gives the Fencer far more time to react. One reason to change feet (again, adapting this from longsword stuff) is to get more of his body behind the protection of the blade so he can attempt a counter thrust at close range. That gets deflected so he whirls the blade around to cut at the other side. Not something I consider efficient with that kind of sword, but it gets him back at his usual facing. The spin at 1:05 is raw flynning in my opinion. Frankly Jet Li is very lucky the Fencer did not stick him in the back as he was turning. The Fencer then tilts the blade up so he can quickly attack the other side, getting inside his guard rather than around the outside. At 1:12 it looks like he’s attempting to slash with the blade, but slashes at the body are fairly limited. I am guessing it is the guy accounting for safety rules. That exchange is a rapid array of cuts/thrusts, focusing more on catching the other person off-guard with the speed and pressure than any more complex tactical advantage. It keeps up until 1:14 when Fencer attempts an overhead cut followed by a backhand slash. Again, his main defence seems to be his reach. Around 1:15-1:16 he’s cutting far too high to be aiming for Jet Li, so I’m guessing these are beats to knock his sword aside and try to create an opening. Then Li uses his position outside the Fencer’s guard to come around and is actually moving a little to his flank. Around this point there is definitely an element of Flynning, though skilled and well-done Flynning – essentially moving the sword in half-circles up and down to create the appearance of high attack parried and slow attack parried. Needless spin by Li at 1:19, however, Fencer guy is keeping his facing fairly good. At 1:22 Fencer uses a bracer to deflect the sword aside while going for the killing strike. This is absolutely the right thing to do. It needs to be done carefully because the edge can still cut you. The follow up backhand swing you see is exactly the wrong move for that kind of sword. The guy practically shoves his chest forward and overcommits to the blow. Frankly a more controlled cut would easily have allowed Fencer dude to catch Jet Li with a forehand cut on the way down. The cuts at 1:29 are clearly aggressive actions from Fencer Dude but again too high for the adorably tiny Jet Li. It is the high-low pattern that allows fast-paced and exciting fight scenes while being predictable enough to be easy on the stars. From 1:32-1:36 there are larger swings that break from the fencing style, probably being overly telegraphed so the distant camera can pick them up well. The guards they circle each other with: Jet Li is using what I would consider a long-point guard to keep the other person at full reach so he has time to react to any attack, while Fencer Dude is using a fool guard to disguise the reach of his weapon. The next exchange, unfortunately, makes the choreography too obvious. Fencer Dude thrusts, Li steps forward on his left to do another unnecessary spin for no purpose than to show him parrying an attack to his back. Then Li makes a good long step away to create distance while he’s in a vulnerable position, making an overhand cut more to stop Fencer Dude from following too closely than to score a hit, and then parrying low again. Then at 1:42, Fencer stops considering his defence – I know the scene is supposed to be in slow motion but he does not even appear to be reacting as Li strikes the inside of his arm then follows up. Again the Fencer blocks with his arm-guard and then launches a powerful and committed thrust, which Li sidesteps as he parries and shows the problem of trying to use such a powerful thrust. Li gets around Fencer’s guard and tries to cut under, I think the armguard blocks it, but Lee grabs Fencer’s sword hand then launches a cut that the Fencer ducks under. Then they step back and resume fencing at range. Unfortunately, when Li gets an advantage seems to be when the Fencer forgets what he’s doing. There’s clear moments when he makes big mistakes, and Li capitalises on them. My thought is this would work for characterisation: if the Fencer’s main weakness is that he tends to get carried away and lose his cool this would be an excellent plot point. From 1:52 you see a pattern of high-low, high-low from Fencer dude – who is initiating most of the attacks because of his reach. In a way, Li is clearly the more skilled fighter trying to deal with his opponent having a reach advantage. The spin-dodge at the end is another sign of mild flynning: if you’re going to do something as precise as slip your blade inside the basket-hilt of your opponent you need to see what you’re doing, so it’s less plausible after a spin. However, it is fast-paced and highly skilled enough that I only noticed the choreography-aspects at all when slowing the fight down for a blow-by-blow analysis. Also, I think those weapons are a small-sword or epee and a jian, those styles allow more for trying to overwhelm your foe with many quick and (from my perspective) simple strikes – compare that with the scene from Ironclad where the bind was emphasised so much that it was like wrestling more than striking. Pimpmust posted:Going by one of the youtube comments (Yeah, I know...): Yes, to clarify, they are trying to portray Greek hoplites using a completely different fighting style or martial art. the JJ posted:Diomedes. Diomedes achievement list: Using flamethrowers in hoplite warfare. Defeated Aeneas. Wounded Aphrodite while she was rescuing Aeneas. Attacked Apollo three times while he was rescuing Aeneas. Went straight-up against Ares himself and drove Ares from the field. Unfortunately, his marriage later fell apart. I suppose this is a consequence of directly injuring the goddess of love. Hogge Wild posted:I'd like to see that too, but alas: http://forums.somethingawful.com/member.php?s=&action=getinfo&userid=183787 Basically, the first thing I got about court jesters is they were very much a late thing. The earliest jester I know of was born in 1480. I think the role of jesters in medieval history was probably very small: small enough that I do not believe there was much customary about them at all. On whether they could speak their mind to the king, I am leaning towards no – just on balance. I think jesters received more patience than other people, but they still had to tread carefully about who they offended. If it was a custom, it was a very weak custom. Henry VIII threatened to kill his jester, William Sommers, in 1535 – not that Henry VIII was particularly known for respecting customs. Thomas Cromwell noted that Sommers would alert the king of how wasteful and extravagant he was with a joke; so I think it was an important skill to be able to not annoy the king. Archibald Armstrong, jester to James VI of Scotland, got sacked for having offended too many people. Basically they did not have too much in the way of job security, and it looks like many rulers did not bother with them at all.
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Sep 17, 2013 15:25
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Ofaloaf posted:Spergy naming convention question: Why was the Kingdom of Jerusalem the Kingdom of Jerusalem and not, say, the Kingdom of Judea or the Kingdom of Palestine? The latter two names refer to regions, the former refers to a city. Was naming Outremer polities after cities (Jerusalem, Antioch, Tripoli) rather than regions a normal thing? If the Crusaders had managed to become wildly more successful, would we have read about the Crusader kingdoms of Egypt, Syria, Mesopotamia, etc., or the kingdoms of Alexandria, Damascus, Mosul, etc.? I have never come across a clear answer for this: so I am purely guessing. But, I think the names of the Crusader kingdoms were based on Patriarchal sees from before the East-West schism when the Orthodox & Catholic Christians separated from each other. The initial patriarchates were Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, Jerusalem, and Rome. So the kingdoms of Antioch & Jerusalem were probably named after the ancient Patriarchates that were recovered for Christendom, and I presume Edessa used a similar naming convention just to fit in. dromer posted:And following that question: What would a general night of feasting entail? It entails a browser crash every time I try to research it. Every time. Regardless of what link I click on. WTF?! This isn’t a joke. I can search other topics without difficulty, but everything related to medieval feasting is causing my computer to have fits. I need to get my computer to not attempt to recover browser sessions unless I tell it to, because this is really annoying. Sorry about that.
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Sep 17, 2013 15:38
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Railtus posted:Jet Li stuff. Based on the guard the fencing guy is using a saber of some sort.
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Sep 17, 2013 16:39
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Buried alive posted:Based on the guard the fencing guy is using a saber of some sort. To me the sword looks very rapier-like (straight bladed and slender), although a straight sabre would make sense.
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Sep 17, 2013 18:29
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Yeah, the blade looks straight, but the guard doesn't have anything that looks like a cross-guard, which every rapier I've ever seen has some aspect of. Of course I'm not the historian so  . Are there historical examples of Epees with that kind of guard?A straight-bladed saber is kind of mind-blowing. That scene caused me to go looking for a match and the 1913 Paton saber looks pretty close, which is also a straight-bladed saber. First time I'd ever seen anything like that. I thought that the curved blade is what made a saber an actual saber. Except for light sabers, but that's neither here nor there.
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Sep 17, 2013 22:17
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Buried alive posted:Yeah, the blade looks straight, but the guard doesn't have anything that looks like a cross-guard, which every rapier I've ever seen has some aspect of. Of course I'm not the historian so Found it: duelling sabre. Both the hilt and the blade match the video. The following was written before I was sure what it was, but I thought it might be worthwhile anyway to see the thought processes rather than me just deleting it now that I have my answer: I’m not really sure what counts as an epee unfortunately, since to me epee is just the French word for sword. Modern epees have similar guards, or what I call bell guards. Rapiers, like you say, have a crosspiece and often extra hand protection, although the hand protection covers that. A smallsword typically dispensed with the crosspiece in favour of a rounded guard, and it is not always entirely clear where a rapier ends and a smallsword begins. By the way, I advise anyone to do an image search of “rapier hilt” to see just how neat and complicated the hand protection could be. The epees I can find have similar-ish hand protection, but nothing perfectly matching. According to a friend of mine (unfortunately I don’t have any source to verify, but he knows way more than me) – the straight vs curved debate was going on well into the late 19th to early 20th century, and some of the French cavalry were using them. Susanne Schwarz (author of Slave Captain, she taught me briefly) stated that people were expecting World War I to be fought through cavalry charges with swords. However, I would just say I am of the same mind as you, I dislike calling a straight-bladed sword a sabre because it dilutes the meaning of sabre into near-uselessness. On a related note, quite a few medieval terms do not match up to our modern classifications. For instance, “long sword” or “short sword” in medieval fighting treatises would often refer to the same weapon using different grips: longsword is both hands on the hilt, while short sword is another term for shortened sword of half-sword grip. My personal favourite, however, is pollaxes being referred to very clearly as the “axe” (hache, or axt, or other word that clearly translates directly to an axe) while the illustrations clearly display a weapon with a hammer on the end.
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Sep 18, 2013 00:29
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Squalid posted:Grumblefish is an English prosecutor working in America and one time literally asked a judge to mete out the maximum allowable sentence because "I consulted the victim and in the liver was engorged with blood, indicating the triumph of virtue." He gets paid to own young black men repeatedly with Legalist/Aristotelean philosophy. Basically he owns. What is the story behind this? I don't even 
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Sep 18, 2013 01:00
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they guy I study under wrote up an article on the nationalistic debate during the Napoleonic era over strait vs curved sabers. http://hemaalliance.com/discussion/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=1406
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Sep 18, 2013 03:53
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pulphero posted:they guy I study under wrote up an article on the nationalistic debate during the Napoleonic era over strait vs curved sabers. Amusingly, this dichotomy continues to the modern day. The ceremonial swords of U.S. Army officers, for instance, are curved sabers, while those of the NCOs are straight-swords.
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Sep 18, 2013 05:20
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