|
Granted, the issue with Hitler's internment was that it was quite brief, if he had served those full 5 years history might have been quite different. If the GD can be stomped out with a ban it is worth it, but of course there is always the chance that it is too much support to stop at this point. The rest of parliament should have done this while they were a non-parliamentary party.
|
#
?
Sep 19, 2013 04:18
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 26, 2024 12:46 |
|
|
Hodgepodge posted:
|
|
#
?
Sep 19, 2013 04:32
|
|
|
Ardennes posted:If the GD can be stomped out with a ban it is worth it, but of course there is always the chance that it is too much support to stop at this point. The rest of parliament should have done this while they were a non-parliamentary party. How does it work to crack down on a party with sitting members of parliament? Would the PMs of Golden Dawn still get votes? What sort of historical precedent exists for this?
|
|
#
?
Sep 19, 2013 04:40
|
|
|
Civilized Fishbot posted:How does it work to crack down on a party with sitting members of parliament? Would the PMs of Golden Dawn still get votes? What sort of historical precedent exists for this? They probably have to disclaim membership and might lose any committee positions, while becoming independent members.
|
|
#
?
Sep 19, 2013 04:49
|
|
|
a bad enough dude posted:Greek gov is moving to ban Golden Dawn. Just so you know, people are saying that the the legislation as it is worded right now leave things very vague. The government seems to be using the language of "two extreams" to see what they can ban. People are afraid that this legislation could be used simply to suppress any outside political groups (such as anarchist groups and communists groups not affiliated with parties).
|
|
#
?
Sep 19, 2013 06:36
|
|
|
ughhhh posted:Just so you know, people are saying that the the legislation as it is worded right now leave things very vague. The government seems to be using the language of "two extreams" to see what they can ban. People are afraid that this legislation could be used simply to suppress any outside political groups (such as anarchist groups and communists groups not affiliated with parties). Yeah, never forget that the same legislation you use to ban your political enemies can also be used to ban you if the wrong people ever get elected. GD are scum and their philosophy needs to be eradicated, but relying on a government crackdown to do it is at best dangerous.
|
|
#
?
Sep 19, 2013 06:42
|
|
|
It's my view that you should be very careful with violence/antifa action. I don't think fascists should be physically assaulted simply for having fascist views or demonstrating. But I also think there's such a thing as a red line and that when they cross it, everyone should get together and just smash them. If your political party kills someone then you don't get to be a political party any more. You're a terrorist group.
|
|
#
?
Sep 19, 2013 06:52
|
|
|
Omi-Polari posted:It's my view that you should be very careful with violence/antifa action. I'm not trying to be a dick here, but GD have arguably been a terrorist group AND a political party at once for some time now. Actual killing still sits along a timeline here of routine intimidation, threats and property damage. While I don't necessarily think you should crush a fascist as soon as they start having fascist thoughts, waiting until they've actually killed someone is probably still leaving it too late.
|
|
#
?
Sep 19, 2013 07:02
|
|
|
If anything it sounds like the law could be used to target non-parliamentary extremists not the GD itself, which ironically would embolden the GD since their opposition outside of parliament would be hurt far more than them.
|
|
#
?
Sep 19, 2013 09:22
|
|
|
ughhhh posted:Just so you know, people are saying that the the legislation as it is worded right now leave things very vague. The government seems to be using the language of "two extreams" to see what they can ban. People are afraid that this legislation could be used simply to suppress any outside political groups (such as anarchist groups and communists groups not affiliated with parties). If that is the case it seems very likely the police will focus far more on left wing groups than GD. Heck at this point they'd probably happily work alongside concerned citizen group Dolden Gawn to root out those awful lefty extremists who are causing so much trouble.
|
|
#
?
Sep 19, 2013 09:26
|
|
|
Historically conservative elites don't like fascists, they just use them if they feel they have to. And since the EU has the Greek government's back, and has no desire to be seen getting into bed with fascists, they both need them less and have more reason to avoid them than their counterparts in 1920s Italy and 1930s Germany. They'll probably tolerate (and have been tolerating) a background level of political violence against potential 'troublemakers' though, depressingly.
|
|
#
?
Sep 19, 2013 11:45
|
|
|
Peel posted:Historically conservative elites don't like fascists, they just use them if they feel they have to. And since the EU has the Greek government's back, and has no desire to be seen getting into bed with fascists, they both need them less and have more reason to avoid them than their counterparts in 1920s Italy and 1930s Germany. This doesn't quite gel with the very public musings of senior New Democracy members, journalists and even the clergy of bringing Golden Dawn 'into the fold', considering them a legitimate coalition partner. Remember, someone from New Democracy publicly stated that their views and Golden Dawn's views 'weren't so different'. If the ruling coalition is deeply unpopular, they may well seek to derive their legitimacy from the support of Golden Dawn. Whether recent events change this, or whether they're hoping that the initial outrage will quickly fade away, is difficult to ascertain at the moment.
|
|
#
?
Sep 19, 2013 12:00
|
|
|
Anybody still have the video of the police and GD charging protests together?
|
|
#
?
Sep 19, 2013 12:10
|
|
|
Also: GD and police operating together against yesterdays antifa demos: http://blog.occupiedlondon.org/2013/09/19/video-neo-nazis-and-police-operated-together-against-the-antifa-demo/ Eye-witness report of the murder: http://blog.occupiedlondon.org/2013...itness-reports/ quote:From eye-witness report: “Around 24:00 a group of 15-20 fascists, wearing black t-shirts and military pants and boots, was deployed on P. Tsaldari street. During that time, Killah P was walking with his girlfriend and another couple when he was spotted by the fascists shouting “what are you looking for here, you know there is no place for you in this hood”. The fascists hunted the two couples down P. Tsaldari street towards Gr. Lampraki avenue, where from another street, a new group of around 10 fascists came out and surrounded the guys. At that time, a car drove opposite in an one-way street, stopped, the driver came out and stabbed Killah P once in the heart and once in the abdomen (the stabbing on his abdomen had an upside-down “L” shape). Report by the victims' father: http://blog.occupiedlondon.org/2013/09/18/antifascist-worker-and-hip-hop-artist-murdered-by-golden-dawn-nazis-in-piraeus-additional-reports/ quote:Pavlos’ friends made a remark against Golden Dawn inside a cafe where they were watching a football match. Somebody from a nearby table overheard them and made a phonecall to Golden Dawn members. Golden Dawn squads arrived almost simultaneously with DIAS motorbike police. Pavlos tried to help his friends evade the scene, but he was ambushed by another Golden Dawn squad and surrounded. Then another Golden Dawn associate drove with his car opposite in an one-way street, stopped and stabbed him to death, while the DIAS policemen did not intervene. One girl asked them to help but they didn’t. They only approached afterwards to arrest the man with the main suspect By local residents: quote:by other local residents: it all seemed like an ambush and not an arguement, there were dozens of people hunting down and surrounding one (Pavlos), their faces and uniforms resemble to the ones that attacked the communist party (KKE) members a few days earlier. If any of you bleeding heart "we can't bash the fash we'd be just as bad" liberals are Greek, blood is on your hands too. If you aren't Greek, learn the lesson now so you'll be prepared if this poo poo comes to your country. egh, post != edit Orange Devil fucked around with this message at 12:20 on Sep 19, 2013 |
|
#
?
Sep 19, 2013 12:13
|
|
|
Orange Devil posted:If any of you bleeding heart "we can't bash the fash we'd be just as bad" liberals are Greek, blood is on your hands too. If you aren't Greek, learn the lesson now so you'll be prepared if this poo poo comes to your country. No man, the anti fascists should lay down in the street and take it, don't you see that otherwise they'll lose the moral high ground? 
|
|
#
?
Sep 19, 2013 12:33
|
|
|
First bashing the fash is wrong because it makes people lose the moral ground or attracts people to the party(never proven), then having the government ban the party after it has committed acts of terrorism and murder is wrong because then any party could be banned. Jesus Christ, what's the acceptable solution then?
|
|
#
?
Sep 19, 2013 15:18
|
|
|
Pesmerga posted:This doesn't quite gel with the very public musings of senior New Democracy members, journalists and even the clergy of bringing Golden Dawn 'into the fold', considering them a legitimate coalition partner. Remember, someone from New Democracy publicly stated that their views and Golden Dawn's views 'weren't so different'. If the ruling coalition is deeply unpopular, they may well seek to derive their legitimacy from the support of Golden Dawn. Whether recent events change this, or whether they're hoping that the initial outrage will quickly fade away, is difficult to ascertain at the moment. I knew talking heads and clergymen had been, I wasn't aware senior party members had. That's more worrying. Still I think the EU would take a very dim view of it, if only for their own PR. On the other hand maybe they think people would ignore it because it's all the Greeks' own fault. LP97S posted:First bashing the fash is wrong because it makes people lose the moral ground or attracts people to the party(never proven), then having the government ban the party after it has committed acts of terrorism and murder is wrong because then any party could be banned. Jesus Christ, what's the acceptable solution then? I'm pretty sure people are in favour of banning the GD, they're just worried that the government is going to ban left parties using it as a cover. There's not really an 'acceptable' solution when the government likes fascists more than socialists, just different kinds of hosed. And replacing the government isn't on the table right now.
|
|
#
?
Sep 19, 2013 15:25
|
|
|
Peel posted:I'm pretty sure people are in favour of banning the GD, they're just worried that the government is going to ban left parties using it as a cover. However, "replacing the government" is more possible than you would think especially since DIMAR left the coalition and the government only has a bare majority. If anything it would take a few defections to collapse the current government. To be perfectly honest, I doubt they would actually ban the GD, or the KKE (much less Syriza, if it is still really a left party at this point). It seems it would much more possible for them to ban "extremist" groups and then go after the anarchists/anti-fascists whole hog, and maybe some symbolic raids against far-rightists not directly part of the GD. The thing is GD already has some clout in the parliament along with other far-rightists, if they could make some ND MPs change their minds...they could have much much more.
|
|
#
?
Sep 19, 2013 15:37
|
|
|
LP97S posted:First bashing the fash is wrong because it makes people lose the moral ground or attracts people to the party(never proven), then having the government ban the party after it has committed acts of terrorism and murder is wrong because then any party could be banned. Jesus Christ, what's the acceptable solution then? Letting yourself be killed by the fascists. As a non-liberal leftist, you're as bad as them. I've never seen Greek cops defending antifas, nor have i ever seen a leftist march being loving escorted by the police. AGCAB.
|
|
#
?
Sep 19, 2013 17:22
|
|
|
Captain_Maclaine posted:To add, NikkolasKing, you might give Dorothy Thompson's Who Goes Nazi? a read. It's from 1941 and not a perfect article to be certain (at times it gets downright sentimental, particularly in class references) but I think broadly it is useful as a commentary from the time about who in society tend to find fascism appealing, and why. Give The True Believer a shot too. Its gone in and out of popularity, but its still regarded as a classic, though obviously Eric Hoffer was a philosopher and not a behavioral psychologist. Still fairly insightful, and worth a read. NikkolasKing, you really do seem like someone searching for meaning and belonging, and you should explore the reasons for that in your life rather than just attaching yourself to a movement and having it stand in for a true understanding of your own self. "The book analyzes and attempts to explain the motives of the various types of personalities that give rise to mass movements; why and how mass movements start, progress and end; and the similarities between them, whether religious, political, radical or reactionary. As examples, the book often refers to Communism, Fascism, National Socialism, Christianity, Protestantism, and Islam. Hoffer believes that mass movements are interchangeable, that adherents will often flip from one movement to another, and that the motivations for mass movements are interchangeable; that religious, nationalist and social movements, whether radical or reactionary, tend to attract the same type of followers, behave in the same way and use the same tactics, even when their stated goals or values differ." edit: My favorite quote from it, especially in regards to Fascism: “Hatred is the most accessible and comprehensive of all the unifying agents. Mass movements can rise and spread without belief in a god, but never without a belief in a devil.”
|
|
#
?
Sep 19, 2013 17:24
|
|
|
Mans posted:Letting yourself be killed by the fascists. As a non-liberal leftist, you're as bad as them. As the saying goes, there's no such thing as a fascist march, only police marches with fascist auxiliaries.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2013 08:30
|
|
|
LP97S posted:First bashing the fash is wrong because it makes people lose the moral ground or attracts people to the party(never proven), then having the government ban the party after it has committed acts of terrorism and murder is wrong because then any party could be banned. Jesus Christ, what's the acceptable solution then? Ottoman revivalism/revanchism.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2013 08:38
|
|
|
Nova Bizzare posted:Ottoman revivalism/revanchism.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2013 12:10
|
|
|
Greek leftie that doesn't think violence is the answer here. Saying that non-violence just gets you killed doesn't really build up an argument in support of violence. Anti-fascist violence is understandable, and as an act in itself is not necessarily a bad thing (as long as it doesn't lead to murder anyway). But you have to consider the bigger picture, you have to consider antifascist violence as a strategy, and its merits in that regard. What a lot of people here are doing is a knee-jerk "bash the fash" reaction fuelled by little more than anger. It's good for venting out, but it doesn't really provide a clear vision as to how to get rid of the fascist elements other than a vague promise of disintegration by virtue of the violence's (presumably successful) application. And it's true that there's other examples of that happening before such as Cable Street. But the times since have changed. Yes the political situation has regressed and in many ways resembles the '30s, but there are points where the resemblance stops: Greece in 2013 is not Britain in 1936. You have a political system that feels threatened by the left and is eager to attribute to it any misbehaviour by non-conforming elements. You have a police that isn't merely lukewarm towards the fascists, you have a police that in large part overlaps with them. These are fascists with organisational experience, with means, with the backing of the establishment as a potential buffer against the left. "Unprovoked" violence against them thus would not serve to harm them, but to strengthen them (please note the quotation marks around unprovoked, I do find everything about the GD provocative). It would play right into the government's portrayal of SYRIZA as one of the "two extremes", and the Golden Dawn has grown enough that it can probably recover from a blow such as that. This is not about maintaining a moral high ground so that one can feel good about one's self. It's about maintaining a moral high ground so that you cannot be vilified.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2013 12:58
|
|
|
A Buttery Pastry posted:That's the solution to pretty much every problem. Yeah, like the time Ottomans finally solved the Armenian problem.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2013 13:18
|
|
|
YF-23 posted:Greek leftie that doesn't think violence is the answer here. Saying that non-violence just gets you killed doesn't really build up an argument in support of violence. You do make some good points, and ones I've heard made by a few Greek friends now, some of who are active in the anti-fascist movement. One thing no-one can really figure out though is how Golden Dawn can be managed. People keep bleakly referring to the coming civil war.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2013 14:34
|
|
|
What YF-23 posted is strategic; what resident liberals post is explicitly moralistic, and where it's consequentialist it's explicitly based on some kind of motivativing-power inherent in morality itself (like a Platonic form): 'violence against fascists makes you lose the moral highground, violence against fascists will necessarily empower them.' I'm quite happy to accept that, at this point, it's not clear what Greeks can or should do. They may well simply be doomed.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2013 14:45
|
|
|
YF-23 posted:Greek leftie that doesn't think violence is the answer here. Saying that non-violence just gets you killed doesn't really build up an argument in support of violence. The tactical question is very much up for debate, yeah. On the other hand, I don't really agree with the bolded conclusion. Since mass media is still in the hands of the capitalist class, vilification will happen regardless of the actions of the left. The question to me rather is how to counter the inevitable flood of bullshit that will intensify once the current government feels the reins really slipping out of their hands.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2013 14:56
|
|
|
I honestly don't know how the Golden Dawn can be managed in current conditions. Obviously you combat extremism by attacking its roots, but these roots are the economic situation of the time which is seemingly unmanageable (and certainly not something the current government and the EU want to handle in any actually effective way because "beep-boop I'm an austerity robot cut cut cut"). I feel like they might lose support over this, however. I hate to say this because it's really loving unfair, but the sort of martyrdom that Physsas is an example of might be the best way to expose the Golden Dawn for the ultra-violent gang of thugs they are.  Cerebral Bore posted:On the other hand, I don't really agree with the bolded conclusion. Since mass media is still in the hands of the capitalist class, vilification will happen regardless of the actions of the left. The question to me rather is how to counter the inevitable flood of bullshit that will intensify once the current government feels the reins really slipping out of their hands. Yes, the mass media which are supportive of the government and the establishment are trying to vilify the left/SYRIZA on every turn. But they are not very convincing at the moment. If the left turned to violence as a means to combat the rise of fascism more comprehensively than through reactions of the sort of the unguided mass protests after Physsas' murder it would validate these accusations, it would give them actual ground to stand on, and it would make people actually start believing them.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2013 15:16
|
|
|
YF-23 posted:I honestly don't know how the Golden Dawn can be managed in current conditions. Obviously you combat extremism by attacking its roots, but these roots are the economic situation of the time which is seemingly unmanageable (and certainly not something the current government and the EU want to handle in any actually effective way because "beep-boop I'm an austerity robot cut cut cut"). I feel like they might lose support over this, however. I hate to say this because it's really loving unfair, but the sort of martyrdom that Physsas is an example of might be the best way to expose the Golden Dawn for the ultra-violent gang of thugs they are. I think the left need a preparatory period before any direct action should be taken. It needs to be hammered into people at every turn that this is in fact what GD are and that they won't stop without someone forcing them to. If the mass media won't do this, people need to be told at every opportunity that the mass media doesn't give a gently caress about them or the truth and that people should rely on alternative sources of information. Ideally the left should organize these as well. However, after this I'm afraid that the only method left (unless the government actually starts cracking down hardcore on GD which would be a minor miracle) is mass direct action in order to hamper the capability of GD to organize and carry out their activities. Unfortunately this will mean direct confrontation with the cops and by extension the state. I just hope that the left manages to keep it together somehow.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2013 15:42
|
|
|
SaltyJesus posted:Yeah, like the time Ottomans finally solved the Armenian problem.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2013 16:03
|
|
|
We know which side the cops are on but what about the army? What if the government really went after the GD and used the noncooperation of the police as a pretext to roll out the tanks? Is such a situation desirable?
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2013 17:54
|
|
|
A Buttery Pastry posted:I was not being entirely serious. I guess my pun was  , I wasn't 100% serious either.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2013 18:40
|
|
|
SaltyJesus posted:I guess my pun was
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2013 20:21
|
|
|
Cerebral Bore posted:I think the left need a preparatory period before any direct action should be taken. It needs to be hammered into people at every turn that this is in fact what GD are and that they won't stop without someone forcing them to. If the mass media won't do this, people need to be told at every opportunity that the mass media doesn't give a gently caress about them or the truth and that people should rely on alternative sources of information. Ideally the left should organize these as well. I think I care more about the innocent people who keep getting beaten by GD members than I do about "the left" being able to feel comfortable about someone doing something about it.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2013 21:09
|
|
|
-Troika- posted:I think I care more about the innocent people who keep getting beaten by GD members than I do about "the left" being able to feel comfortable about someone doing something about it. I think you'll find that "the left" are usually among the innocent people who keep getting beaten by GD members, but hey, compassion only extends so far on the political spectrum, doesn't it?
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2013 21:23
|
|
|
Pacifism is a virtue, but to enemies of Fascism, it's a curse. How can you expect it's victims to not defend themselves and fight back? "Hey, gays in Russia and anyone pretty much everyone to the left of Golden Dawn! Do what Gandhi did! Just lay on the street and get crushed by bats and jackboots! The general populace will look in horror, and not totally cheer on the savages!" 
staticman fucked around with this message at 22:15 on Sep 20, 2013 |
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2013 22:11
|
|
|
You guys do not realise this do you? Get it in your heads, the police and the establishment are all too happy to beat up on the left. You want the left to attack the Golden Dawn, but if such an attack can be spun off as unprovoked there will be no hesitation, the state machinery will move from anti-left propaganda to actual repression. What you're calling for is not just an attack on Golden Dawn. It's also suicide. When the system succeeds in de-legitimising the anti-fascist forces, that's when the true bloodbath will begin. Pretty much the only time that violence works is in retribution, as in the protests these days after Physsas' murder. But some of you seem to think there can just be another Cable Street and that everyone will happily bash the fash and that will end the Golden Dawn and the fascists will stop beating up people and everyone will be happy forever after. I'm sorry to burst that bubble, but things are not that simple.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2013 23:18
|
|
|
YF-23 posted:You guys do not realise this do you? Get it in your heads, the police and the establishment are all too happy to beat up on the left. You want the left to attack the Golden Dawn, but if such an attack can be spun off as unprovoked there will be no hesitation, the state machinery will move from anti-left propaganda to actual repression. What you're calling for is not just an attack on Golden Dawn. It's also suicide. When the system succeeds in de-legitimising the anti-fascist forces, that's when the true bloodbath will begin. It's especially odd because late Weimar Germany is right there to show us that roving bands of leftists who beat up people got regarded as more dangerous than the literal Nazis and other rightist groups who went around beating up people. Anyone with half a brain should be able to look at that and notice that.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2013 23:24
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 26, 2024 12:46 |
|
|
YF-23 posted:You guys do not realise this do you? Get it in your heads, the police and the establishment are all too happy to beat up on the left. You want the left to attack the Golden Dawn, but if such an attack can be spun off as unprovoked there will be no hesitation, the state machinery will move from anti-left propaganda to actual repression. What you're calling for is not just an attack on Golden Dawn. It's also suicide. When the system succeeds in de-legitimising the anti-fascist forces, that's when the true bloodbath will begin. Install Windows posted:It's especially odd because late Weimar Germany is right there to show us that roving bands of leftists who beat up people got regarded as more dangerous than the literal Nazis and other rightist groups who went around beating up people. Anyone with half a brain should be able to look at that and notice that. Violence is ONLY good as a last resort, and I realize that if leftist and the oppressed retaliate, it's gonna be a full blown extermination against them. There must be better solutions than violence and peaceful protesting, as GD and the police will steamroll both. 
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2013 23:43
|
|