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Is there any literature that deals specifically with the Unification Wars or the Crusades directly? I really enjoyed the Murder planet with the arachnoid xenos. I feel like those are huge untapped areas they could use. Someone posted that they should have done some Great Crusade novels first, and I thought that really smart. Give us a before and after picture.
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Sep 20, 2013 14:19
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Dravs posted:yes they are pretty obviously demons. The Emprah is not omniscient or omnipresent, there is no reason to believe he would know that the Thousand Sons (who were already a very closed legion due to their mutations) were interacting with denizens of the warp on a daily basis. I would think that he would've found out and that would've helped form his decree at Nikea. And I may not be remembering things right but the Space Wolf librarian must've known about the tutelaries since he was so insistent on the differences in abilities and where they originated between his legion and the Thousand Suns.
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Sep 20, 2013 15:09
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I know this is the wood pulp spacemans thread as opposed to the plastic spacemans thread, but Forgeworld recently showed off Ferrus Manus' model and I thought it was rad: Although I wonder, wasn't there something about Ferrus Manus' head in one of the books that implied that the head was still alive? Maybe if they advance the timeline, Ferrus Manus' head will be rescued and put into a super-dreadnought of his own design, and he will purge his Legion and their world out of shame at what they have become just like the Night Haunter and the Iron Warriors did 
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Sep 20, 2013 16:42
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Pyrolocutus posted:Ferrus Manus' model Yeah, I saw that today too. I really like all the weapons strapped to his back. Was that mentioned in a book? I don't recall it being noted in Fulgrim, the only written bit about Manus I've personally read.
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Sep 20, 2013 16:48
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TheStampede posted:Yeah, I saw that today too. I really like all the weapons strapped to his back. Was that mentioned in a book? I don't recall it being noted in Fulgrim, the only written bit about Manus I've personally read. The cover of Fulgrim also has him wielding a giant wrench, so I wouldn't think that it's an authority. Too bad that it's the only HH book with a significant Iron Hands/Ferrus Manus presence.
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Sep 20, 2013 17:04
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CreepyGuy9000 posted:I think they were real Demons and I thought maybe it was something they had learnt a lot later on, but It has been suggested that they have always been with the thousand sons and that the "Tutelaries" were actually responsible for the mutations.
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Sep 20, 2013 18:03
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Yeah, the warp being what it is, there has to be benign and occasionally helpful beings over there. They are, however, vastly out powered by the big 4 nasty bastards.
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Sep 20, 2013 18:08
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VanSandman posted:Yeah, the warp being what it is, there has to be benign and occasionally helpful beings over there. They are, however, vastly out powered by the big 4 nasty bastards. Didn't Magnus encounter a friendly warp entity that gave him the strength to break through the big E's protective wards and stuff? I also remember a few pages back people discussing how each warp entity also had its opposite, instead of pestilence and sickness, there's a warp entity for health and well being as well.
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Sep 20, 2013 18:43
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The big gods of chaos also embody the good parts of the emotions associated with them. Like Khorne is not only murder, aggression and war, but also honor, sacrifice and pride (both good and bad!). Likewise, Nurgle is growth, sickness, rebirth, survival and perseverance. Tzeentch is cunning, intrigue, change, fate, plotting, destiny. Slaanesh is pain, torment, bliss, ecstasy, passion, lust and self-indulgence. The main bit of fluff is that humans suck so loving hard and are basically terrible all around, so the bad parts of the chaos gods greatly outweigh the good parts.
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Sep 20, 2013 18:53
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Waroduce posted:Didn't Magnus encounter a friendly warp entity that gave him the strength to break through the big E's protective wards and stuff? I also remember a few pages back people discussing how each warp entity also had its opposite, instead of pestilence and sickness, there's a warp entity for health and well being as well. I kind of got the impression that wasn't a benign force helping Magnus destroy the last barrier protecting Terra from full on warp invasion...
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Sep 20, 2013 18:57
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Lead Psychiatry posted:I would think that he would've found out and that would've helped form his decree at Nikea. And I may not be remembering things right but the Space Wolf librarian must've known about the tutelaries since he was so insistent on the differences in abilities and where they originated between his legion and the Thousand Suns. IIRC, no, Space Wolfs didn't know about the tutelaries, as they only made their presence known when the gig was up during the invasion of Prospero. At that point, the Wolves collectively went "holy poo poo, these guys are consorting with goddamned daemons!" Also, I believe there were a couple of instances of daemon presence while at Nikea (one detailed in Prospero Burns, and another) and that's what convinced the Emperor that warp stuff was a no-go anymore. Arquinsiel posted:The thing is, the Eldar Gods are also "warp entities", or daemons if you wanna play it that way, that can manifest in the material. It's quite possible that the Tutelaries were a benign source of information that slowly became corrupted once exposed to external Chaotic influence thus having the Thousand Sons not suspect anything was wrong. It's possible, but more likely they were daemons from the very beginning. The great tragedy of the Thousand Sons is that they were toying and bargaining with the warp without having any idea of what they were dealing with; they simply didn't understand chaos, and were unable to see it as it manipulated them every step of the way - either broadly as magnus made his deals and accepted the apparently benign aid of the pantheon, to individually with daemon familiars slowly corrupting their charges, just waiting for the chance to take over or laugh as they destroyed themselves.
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Sep 20, 2013 19:29
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Nephilm posted:It's possible, but more likely they were daemons from the very beginning. The great tragedy of the Thousand Sons is that they were toying and bargaining with the warp without having any idea of what they were dealing with; they simply didn't understand chaos, and were unable to see it as it manipulated them every step of the way - either broadly as magnus made his deals and accepted the apparently benign aid of the pantheon, to individually with daemon familiars slowly corrupting their charges, just waiting for the chance to take over or laugh as they destroyed themselves.
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Sep 20, 2013 20:09
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This is modern WH40k.
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Sep 20, 2013 20:46
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They just stopped talking about it, they haven't actually retconned a different explanation in there yet.
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Sep 20, 2013 21:09
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TheStampede posted:Yeah, I saw that today too. I really like all the weapons strapped to his back. Was that mentioned in a book? I don't recall it being noted in Fulgrim, the only written bit about Manus I've personally read. I'm fairly sure that's a techmarine-style fixing-stuff harness, not weapons.
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Sep 20, 2013 21:35
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So GW/BL announced the Classics line today and the covers for both Nightbringer and Trollslayer are pretty okay but the First and Only one is still probably the best one.
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Sep 20, 2013 21:59
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thespaceinvader posted:I'm fairly sure that's a techmarine-style fixing-stuff harness, not weapons. I have to wonder what his servo-chainsword is for.
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Sep 20, 2013 23:21
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Arquinsiel posted:They just stopped talking about it, they haven't actually retconned a different explanation in there yet. Cooked Auto posted:So GW/BL announced the Classics line today and the covers for both Nightbringer and Trollslayer are pretty okay but the First and Only one is still probably the best one. It's poo poo.
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Sep 20, 2013 23:22
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Nephilm posted:Isn't Nightbringer the first book of McNeil's Ultramarines Ventris series? Eeyup. Pretty much. But I guess it was one of their first so it constitutes a classic. v  v
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Sep 20, 2013 23:47
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Finished Soul Hunter today. Man. That guy makes almost every character interesting, even the ones that are introduced and killed on the same page.
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Sep 20, 2013 23:48
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Nephilm posted:You're talking fantasy, and when GW stops talking about things it usually means they go away unless they start talking about them again.
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Sep 20, 2013 23:56
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Kenlon posted:Where did they say that? I could have sworn there was something about it not being a normal psyker power, but it still draws on the warp. . . I believe the quote was that Kruze/Argel's power of prophecy was derived from their Geneseed and "pure" of taint, as opposed to the more "common" visions granted to Chaos Sorcerers by the dark gods.
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Sep 21, 2013 00:13
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Improbable Lobster posted:I have to wonder what his servo-chainsword is for. You don't have saws in your toolbox?
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Sep 21, 2013 00:32
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Is it just me or after reading both Fallen Angels and the Descent of Angels, or does the Lion seem a lot lesser and barely awe-inspiring compared to the other primarchs? Even during Fallen Angels, when The Dark Angels fought the Sons of Horus. The sons of horus were completely okay with charging into combat against a loving Primarch. Also i thought the lion was supposed to be the embodiment of the emperors finesses at warmaking, such that he is a brilliant tactican, and amazing fighter. Yet he doesn't understand any of the emotional/social components of fighting a war. Also another question (i forgot about), but during Descent of Angels why did the Lion bug the White Scars to let them take over compliance of the planet? Zaherial says something about duty, with absolutely no explanation for why they are fighting a war. Also i would love to see the Black Library pump out some short stories basically about the werid/mysterious/non-sensical worlds/planets the expeditionary forces came across during the great crusade.
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Sep 21, 2013 00:44
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UberJumper posted:Is it just me or after reading both Fallen Angels and the Descent of Angels, or does the Lion seem a lot lesser and barely awe-inspiring compared to the other primarchs? I'm pretty sure this is why the Lion is referred to in this thread as an autistic smurf.
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Sep 21, 2013 01:00
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pentyne posted:I'm pretty sure this is why the Lion is referred to in this thread as an autistic smurf. I know he is autistic but when the emperor went and made his first son, was he like "hmmm i have dozens of other things to give him, gently caress it lets give him autisim, for shits and giggles". I just find it werid that the only thing the emperor gave him was autism.
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Sep 21, 2013 01:19
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UberJumper posted:I know he is autistic but when the emperor went and made his first son, was he like "hmmm i have dozens of other things to give him, gently caress it lets give him autisim, for shits and giggles". I just find it werid that the only thing the emperor gave him was autism. I get the feeling that the Emperor decided to make the first Primarch super good at fighting then moved on to the next before giving him anything else.
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Sep 21, 2013 01:36
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Improbable Lobster posted:I get the feeling that the Emperor decided to make the first Primarch super good at fighting then moved on to the next before giving him anything else. Except so far he hasn't really been shown to be good at fighting, really. There was a minor passage in Fallen Angels, but even then he really didn't do a whole lot. He killed a Caliban Lion, which a 15 year old boy also did. Then you have Primarch's like Angron who is basically besting a titan, Russ smashing thousand suns like they were candy, etc. Basically the Lion needs a book that isn't terrible and actually show him as something more than just being autistic.
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Sep 21, 2013 01:49
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The Lion being good at war doesn't mean he was a beast at fighting dudes with a sword, it means that he had an excellent grasp of tactics and strategies. In Fallen Angels he manages to find one of Horus's weakspots and outmaneuvers him quite deftly with only a tiny fraction of his Legion. If he hadn't been autistic and handed over the tanks to his brother, he would have basically kneecapped the ability of the traitors to harm the Imperial Palace, and would have had weapons that could pulverize any of the traitor strongholds. THAT was why the Lion was ultimately passed over for the title of Warmaster. He really was a better strategist than Horus, but Horus understood people and how they work, which made him the better supreme commander.
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Sep 21, 2013 02:37
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Wasn't there a quote in the older fluff that had the Lion's number of victories second only to Guilliman, or was that someone else?
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Sep 21, 2013 02:39
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Anonymous Zebra posted:The Lion being good at war doesn't mean he was a beast at fighting dudes with a sword, it means that he had an excellent grasp of tactics and strategies. In Fallen Angels he manages to find one of Horus's weakspots and outmaneuvers him quite deftly with only a tiny fraction of his Legion. If he hadn't been autistic and handed over the tanks to his brother, he would have basically kneecapped the ability of the traitors to harm the Imperial Palace, and would have had weapons that could pulverize any of the traitor strongholds. THAT was why the Lion was ultimately passed over for the title of Warmaster. He really was a better strategist than Horus, but Horus understood people and how they work, which made him the better supreme commander. True i forgot about that. However he does outmanuver horus and rush to try and secure a forgeworld with a 100 men. With no real explanation of how he will accomplish this. Even worse is that if the techmarine hadn't linked the dreadnaught to the siege gun, he would have been completely over-run. Shroud posted:Wasn't there a quote in the older fluff that had the Lion's number of victories second only to Guilliman, or was that someone else? According to the fluff Horus was the one who had the most victories hands down (however that was also from Horus Rising). I know Guilliman gets alot of flak for being the king of the smurfs, but he really should have been Warmaster  Also has there been a book about the Blood Angels yet?
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Sep 21, 2013 03:54
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UberJumper posted:I know he is autistic but when the emperor went and made his first son, was he like "hmmm i have dozens of other things to give him, gently caress it lets give him autisim, for shits and giggles". I just find it werid that the only thing the emperor gave him was autism. Well the emperor made him a strategic super-genius with prodigious analytical skills. Then by accident he grew up in the woods as a wildman with no human contact. He probably ends up as basically the Rain Man of battle because of the whole "childhood living alone in a haunted forest" thing. Even Leman Russ was at least raised by another social mammal.
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Sep 21, 2013 04:02
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Cream_Filling posted:Well the emperor made him a strategic super-genius with prodigious analytical skills. Then by accident he grew up in the woods as a wildman with no human contact. He probably ends up as basically the Rain Man of battle because of the whole "childhood living alone in a haunted forest" thing. Even Leman Russ was at least raised by another social mammal. I don't really get that, Luther finds him as a young feral child. In the one of the other books it is pointed out that Primarchs mature extremely fast (~3 years for Mortarion to become an adult). Guilliman basically became the ruler of Macragge extremely young age after basically being the biggest badass. So really the lion wasn't a feral child for that long. I would think a primarch who is basically perfect in almost everyway would be able to understand the basic components of social structure. Even during the Descent of Angels when he ruled the order he really wasn't autistic, he was just kind of a man of action.
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Sep 21, 2013 04:20
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Waroduce posted:Didn't Magnus encounter a friendly warp entity that gave him the strength to break through the big E's protective wards and stuff? I also remember a few pages back people discussing how each warp entity also had its opposite, instead of pestilence and sickness, there's a warp entity for health and well being as well. I'm pretty sure that friendly warp entity was implied to be Tzeentch.
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Sep 21, 2013 05:40
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The Lion is autistic because he's been handed out to lovely authors. For how hosed in the head he was, even Angron had moments of lucidity where he displayed peerless tactical acumen, and bestial and diminished as he was compared to the other primarchs, he was still an awe-inspiring figure to mortals who laid eyes upon him. All primarchs were greater than human, all stood heads-and-shoulders over mortals and astartes in all respects, even when it wasn't their "specialty". The Lion being unable to gauge people or political situations is just lovely loving writing. Nephilm fucked around with this message at 05:59 on Sep 21, 2013 |
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Sep 21, 2013 05:53
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I finally finished False Gods. Jesus, that was terrible. I lost count of the number of times I wanted to ask McNeill if he had something in his eye, what with all the winking he was doing. After that, Galaxy in Flames seems rather good. Some of the dialog is really bad, but it's only 2nd string Dragonlance bad, and I can put up with it. After this one, I'm going straight for the good books. Which of the following should I do next? The Thousand Sons/Propero Burns pair, Legion, Know no Fear, The First Heretic, or Betrayer?
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Sep 21, 2013 06:32
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Out of the last three you mentioned, you should read them in the order of First Heretic, Know No Fear, and then Betrayer. I would recommend Legion, and then that trio.
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Sep 21, 2013 06:35
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UberJumper posted:Even during the Descent of Angels when he ruled the order he really wasn't autistic, he was just kind of a man of action. Nope. That's one of the things the main character of Descent of Angels figures out. Luthor ran Caliban really well and found ways to make El'Johnson's good ideas into something other people would agree to. Luthor says that his son/brother is brilliant and knows exactly what needs to be done to make a good world, but that he rubs everyone the wrong way. Also just because The Lion appeared as a human child when he was found, don't assume that he looked anything like that before the moment he was found. There are hints that the Primarchs only look like human kids when people find them because that's the form the primarchs take when they first see humans (Fulgrim looks like a ball of light when he is first found THEN becomes a kid). Supposedly, The Lion was not only fighting Beasts, but also killing incorporeal monsters (daemons) while in the deep woods, so who knows what form he took at that time. He might have spent ages out there. They're all warp entities anyway. Nephilm posted:The Lion is autistic because he's been handed out to lovely authors. Nope. Other earlier core books talk about how The Lion was insulted by something Russ did during a battle that probably wasn't a big deal but The Lion took it as an insult because he is unable to read people at all. This entire aspect is what makes him so neat. The guy is living in the times of the greatest series of betrayals ever and he just cannot figure out how you are supposed to tell when someone is traitor, and so he ends up distrusting people that openly disagree with him instead of the people that are all smiles and compliments, and he ends up not trusting ANY of his brothers so he doesn't join up with Papa Smurf when the time comes. Anonymous Zebra fucked around with this message at 06:41 on Sep 21, 2013 |
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Sep 21, 2013 06:37
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All the Primarchs are supposed to have fatal flaws. That's part of what makes them fun to read about: Fulgrim's vanity, Horus' pride, Guilliman's... OK, I have yet to figure out what Gulliman's weakness is. Maybe insistence on documenting things instead of going out and doing them? A kind of OCD?
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Sep 21, 2013 06:59
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Gulliman is probably rigid adherance to the law. It said that he wrote the codex as a guide not a set path to follow but he didn't exactly teach that to his sons. Alpharus - Insecurity. Could have fought the Ultramarines from the shadows but decided he had to teach big brother Gulliman he can bang with the best of them. Omegeron was forced to face palm so hard he shattered his helmet as he had to find a way to hide his twin's death. Angron - Fatalistic acceptance of his death that when his father pulled him from the face of death, he could never forgive him for denying him the death he choose. Perturbo - Pride because of all the sieges he started just to have his brothers come in and take the glory.
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Sep 21, 2013 07:17
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