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alcharagia posted:Gore and edginess. Well, they got it half right. 
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Sep 19, 2013 23:08
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quote:Monster Girl Quest: Lose and the Girls Rape You. It's a deep and engaging story deconstructing half the tropes in existence and parodying the rest, involving a race war that goes back to the dawn of the world... but that doesn't change the fact that the battle mechanic is the hero fighting off the monster girls who are trying to rape him. The "deconstructing half the tropes" line also links to another another loving page. I guess it's the SSJ2 of "deconstruction"
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Sep 19, 2013 23:12
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I'm going to take a wild guess here and say that the "It's a deep and engaging story deconstructing half the tropes in existence and parodying the rest" part is probably not explained or elaborated there or anywhere else on the site.
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Sep 19, 2013 23:20
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made of bees posted:I dunno, you can't depend on TVTropes giving things intuitive names. After a bit of searching I found a few tropes that seem to be about what you were looking for. Hell, at one point Tropers cut "True Companions" "Band of Brothers" and "Nakama" down to one page. Because they were all the same goddamned thing. Academic Resource TVTropes had this to say: quote:Nakama is the "third rail" of TV Tropes politics. The debate is so polarized that it's impossible to come to any sort of objective conclusion. Technically, the term violates almost all of our naming rules: it's not indicative, the original Japanese term does not mean what we're using it to mean, it's not a concept central or even original to anime, and it's fanspeak. However, it's as popular as Xanatos-Gambit, so it's staying. "We're using the word incorrectly. Nobody that hasn't watched One Piece knows what the gently caress we're talking about. And there's nothing really distinct from Band of Brothers that warrants a separate page. On the other hand, anime." Actually this thread is funny. quote:On a side note, one of my proudest moments on TV Tropes was when I got Nakama added to Tropers' Law by first writing its equivalent of Godwin's Law in one of the many threads on it! (this was under my previous handle of Addy The Pawn Slayer, though). evil grin Cleaning up a wiki about nerd poo poo is our Holocaust. And bringing up the Nakama cut is literally racism.
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Sep 19, 2013 23:35
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What does "nakama" actually mean? Google was so littered with crap that it left me more confused.
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Sep 20, 2013 01:42
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AlbieQuirky posted:What does "nakama" actually mean? Google was so littered with crap that it left me more confused. Here's a decent source. Sham bam bamina! fucked around with this message at 01:59 on Sep 20, 2013 |
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Sep 20, 2013 01:55
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AlbieQuirky posted:What does "nakama" actually mean? Google was so littered with crap that it left me more confused. It literally means "shipmates" as in people that are also on the crew of a boat. It comes from a One Piece fansub that left it untranslated, even though it is totally translatable. This nakama bullshit is huge—I've heard American students ask Japanese students in Japanese who they consider their nakama, only to get met with really weird stares.
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Sep 20, 2013 01:57
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AlbieQuirky posted:What does "nakama" actually mean? Google was so littered with crap that it left me more confused. The two kanji mean "relationship/go-between" and "space". It can be used for basically any relationship that's not family, antagonistic, or purely acquaintanceship, so the the following sentences: "I fell into company with him." "He is a partner in crime." "Sally and I work in the same office." "We have been mates for years." all use "nakama". It also was used to refer to an old system of guilds a few centuries ago, but that's what you get when any language is old enough. edit: source
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Sep 20, 2013 02:04
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What is the point of making up your own secret language if you are trying to communicate ideas?
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Sep 20, 2013 04:01
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Shbobdb posted:What is the point of making up your own secret language if you are trying to communicate ideas? Tropers only; no jocks allowed.
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Sep 20, 2013 04:27
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Shbobdb posted:What is the point of making up your own secret language if you are trying to communicate ideas? Normal language isn't kind to subnormal ideas. If you say them in plain English, it becomes evident how inane they are, like 'One Word Title: A title of a work that's only one word long.' The easier your language is to understand, the clearer your ideas become, and if they're stupid, that also becomes clear. Also, normal language is a big bully: it has definitions that can be verified by appeals to authority, ie the dictionary, and no matter how strongly you feel that 'objective' ought to mean 'totally pushes my buttons', somebody's always going to be able to contradict you. A word that nobody quite understands, even its users, can be interpreted to please everybody, everyone can talk past everyone else, and the hugbox is preserved.
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Sep 20, 2013 12:16
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From the description of the trope Uncertain Audience:quote:Occurs when a form of media seems unaware of its target demographic, appealing to a wide range of different people. It can be a candy-coated squee with a squick center for some people (Like a Tootsie Roll lollipop for those who don't like chocolate, or prefer real chocolate) or vice versa (Like salted peanuts that you can't eat until you bust em open.) For chocolate-munching, peanut-swallowing people on the other hand, this genre blend can be the perfect flavor for you. On the other hand, if you have diabetes or high blood pressure, your best bet is to stay away from this. I dare anyone to scour the whole of human verbal output and find a more shittily-expressed metaphor. Edit: and now I found a page that calls Jason from The Sound and the Fury a "Jerkass Woobie." God loving drat it. Thinky Whale fucked around with this message at 15:22 on Sep 20, 2013 |
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Sep 20, 2013 14:48
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Oooh boy. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StandardFemaleGrabArea quote:So, the Action Girl is busy slinging around multiple opponents with her competent style of Waif-Fu. In fact, she is doing so well that one has to wonder what the Big drat Heroes are doing at all when they could leave the entire mission to her and she'd get it done and be back home in time for dinner. ...Okay fine, I can't think of many examples because I live a life of virtue and am not a troper, but okay. This sounds like it might be okay. It's a parodic name for a sexist bit of writing or choreography, right? quote:Giving the benefit of the doubt, this trope exists to keep fights interesting. But since it doesn't happen quite as often to guys, it's more likely that gender stereotypes haven't changed as much as we're led to believe. Because there's an unfair stereotype of women as weak and helpless, right? Right? quote:Alternatively, when someone tries to calm or incapacitate a guy it's much more socially acceptable to use a believable amount of force—such as punching him, knocking him out with a weapon, or beating him senseless. Until the audience gets over its distaste for seeing female characters hurt—and immediately seeing any man who uses force against a woman as a villain—there will be a double standard. Oh wait, no, it's MISANDRY! Silly me. quote:A third possibility is that of simple pragmatism: while animators these days have no problems lampshading how ridiculously sexist "chivalry" is, many real life holds on women can come off as perversely sexual (e.g. a full nelson from a strong opponent, while capable of incapacitating the character, also involves her assailant pressing himself behind her, forcing her head down, and spreading her arms from her chest). You are picturing that in way too much detail, troper. Go take a cold shower. Maybe stay in there for a few months until you're a better person. quote:The arm is also the ideal location to grab a female character who's panicking or in the middle of a screaming freakout. No amount of verbal entreaties will get her to mellow out on her own, but punctuate a terse "calm down!" with both hands on her upper arms, and voila, she's back on steady ground again. See, boys, THIS is how a real man handles those irrational females! quote:It should go without saying that in Real Life, it will take more than just grabbing your opponent's upper arms or wrists and standing there to stop them, regardless of gender. (This depends on the girl, however; often in many cultures, women are conditioned to submit reflexively to being physically apprehended by a man or matron— which is probably the history behind the trope). ...And by this point, they're actually giving advice on how to immobilise a woman. Benefit of the doubt, benefit of the doubt, maybe they're just hopelessly bad writers who can't talk about women without sounding like field researchers describing the behaviour of macaque monkeys, but either way, you probably shouldn't leave a woman alone in a room with one of these guys.  Thinky Whale posted:
Oh gently caress, the loving 'Woobie'. They just can't let anything remain unfetishised, can they? quote:A "woobie" is a name for any type of character who makes you feel extremely sorry for them ... A story with the Woobie allows the audience to vicariously experience relief from some pain by fantasizing about relieving the Woobie's pain. (No, not that way! Well, okay, sometimes. {This links to 'Rule 34', ie, there is porn of everything. We're family friendly!}) Woobification can also tie into a disturbing hurt/comfort dynamic, in which fans enjoy seeing the Woobie tortured so they can wish the hurt away. This is often explored in Hurt/Comfort Fic. So by their definition, any character who suffers during the story - ie, any sympathetic character in a story with any kind of conflict - leads us skipping merrily down Porn Alley. We're academic! They've got some gross poo poo on there, but 'Woobie' is one of the grossest just because of the worldview it implies. That's their take on drama and audience sympathy. If it's an involving story in which anything bad happens to someone, we need a name for it that's: a) porny b) totally contemptuous of the idea that suffering in fiction might ever serve any artistic end beyond, at best, emotional porn. We've got a smartass word for it, so we're superior! Everything is Trope and Trope is Everything! Ugh. Apple Tree fucked around with this message at 17:15 on Sep 20, 2013 |
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Sep 20, 2013 15:19
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fulltime D posted:In the tradtion of A Clockwork Orange... Sham bam bamina! fucked around with this message at 03:48 on Sep 21, 2013 |
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Sep 20, 2013 18:23
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I notice that in the whole of that vesch you quoted, that troper veck doesn't use a single solitary slovo that isn't like English. In the tradition of A Clockwork Orange my sharries. TVTropes is a cally mesto and no mistake.
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Sep 20, 2013 18:49
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His spelling of "different" is actually a really good detail. If in his world Gary Coleman and Conrad Bain are considered gods.
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Sep 20, 2013 18:50
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His dialect, known colloquially as "Dumbass Cockney"
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Sep 20, 2013 18:54
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Except for that dumbass -ful thing and 'ponst, that just reads like someone doing a north Alabama drawl to me. So yeah, the opportunity to flesh out a new and exciting dialect that can take virtually any form he can conceive of, and he defaults to dropping gs and throwing in goofy archaisms. Creativity!! e. christ, "becourse" paranoid randroid fucked around with this message at 19:06 on Sep 20, 2013 |
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Sep 20, 2013 19:01
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Apple Tree posted:I notice that in the whole of that vesch you quoted, that troper veck doesn't use a single solitary slovo that isn't like English. In the tradition of A Clockwork Orange my sharries. TVTropes is a cally mesto and no mistake. Smot, droog, those bezoomey TvTropes lewdies are only horrorshow for givin' the SA banda some dobby, gromky laughs.
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Sep 20, 2013 19:04
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my dad posted:Smot, droog, those bezoomey TvTropes lewdies are only horrorshow for givin' the SA banda some dobby, gromky laughs. And listing where to find pictures of groodies, of course. But probably that veck had only slooshied of A Clockwork Orange and never like actually read it. Okay, I'm stopping now. I'm wondering, though, do they have a trope for 'A book or film that people pretend to be influenced by without having actually read or seen it?' Or is it, like 'fantasist', a concept that they don't quite like admitting exists? Because I'm starting to suspect that the concepts they don't trope in loving detail are as telling as the ones they do...
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Sep 20, 2013 19:26
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Apple Tree posted:I notice that in the whole of that vesch you quoted, that troper veck doesn't use a single solitary slovo that isn't like English. In the tradition of A Clockwork Orange my sharries. TVTropes is a cally mesto and no mistake. my dad posted:Smot, droog, those bezoomey TvTropes lewdies are only horrorshow for givin' the SA banda some dobby, gromky laughs. Apple Tree posted:And listing where to find pictures of groodies, of course. But probably that veck had only slooshied of A Clockwork Orange and never like actually read it. Um...Core Blimey...what-what. Chim Chim Cheree? Anyway, the "On Topic Conversation" forum has a thread about sexism. Maybe they are getting better. What's that? It's called "Sexism and Men's Issues"? Of course it is. Karalora posted:Here's hoping this isn't considered too redundant. I've noticed that our existing threads about sexism tend to get bogged down in Oppression Olympics or else wildly derailed, so I thought I'd make a thread specifically to talk about discrimination issues that disproportionately affect men. Now, I was going to make a long statement about how everything in that list (with the possible exception of circumcision) is a result of gender norms perpetuated by patriarchy, but I think the bolded bits are funnier, so lets go with that. I know not all women are gung-ho feminists, but it boggles the mind when they go the other way. Is she just trying to be "one of the boys"? 'Cause I can certainly think of better boys to be one of. But I digress. At least they are trying to keep this from the usual "women have it so much better" drivel that MRA's are always spouting, right? Shaggy posted:The only thing I can think of to add to this discussion is the fact that, in America, on average, men will make less money in their lifetime if they try to obtain equal rights by not signing up for the draft. It's a $250, 000 fine and five years in prison, plus the fact that you have a felony and no one is going to hire you. Yep. There is no way that that can be construed as "women have it better." None whatsoever. None. Nada. Not-a-one. But I don't think tropers have to worry about being drafted. I doubt the army has much interest in anyone whose head is to fat to fit in a helmet. I'm sorry, I am ignoring the important issues at hand. Issues like... King Zeal posted:-Men tend to be the person who initates relationships. There's an attitude that man who doesn't speak up about his attraction to a woman is a "coward". This is beautiful. For the record, staring at hot women does make you a creep. And I have a sneaking suspicion that that is why they are staring at you. Not because they want you to initiate. But because you are a creep. Build Your Own Boat fucked around with this message at 07:49 on Sep 21, 2013 |
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Sep 20, 2013 20:45
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Build Your Own Boat posted:Um...Core Blimey...what-what. Chim Chim Cheree? http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:A_Clockwork_Orange Or, loosely translated, 'Some of us have actually read A Clockwork Orange; Senator, you are not influenced by A Clockwork Orange.' The point is, Burgess doesn't mess around with suffixes or spell accents phonetically or any of that stuff. He leaves grammar alone and incorporates a whole lot of vocabulary, mostly based on Russian, like a real slang. It's an assey simple trick to copy on the visage of it - you just choyck a language, prend some nouns, and then knock them into an English shape (which is what I was doing with French there) - but if you don't have a good reason for doing it or a strong sense of how language works, it's going to look gimmicky. What that guy was trying to do, though, was a 'dialect', which is completely different from the kind of cant Alex uses in A Clockwork Orange. It's not a bad idea that somebody who'd lived for millenia might show some effects in the way they speak, but on the other hand, even people who just live for decades tend to change their accents and vocabulary to move with the times. We learn new words, we stop using unfashionable ones. People who were teenagers in the sixties are not still saying 'Far out, man' now. It's one of those ideas that's clever if you think about it for five seconds, and stupid if you think about it for ten. To pull something like that off you'd have to be a much better writer than that guy is and a serious linguist to boot, and if you aren't, then you should know your limits and stick to what you can actually do. (Exactly what that'd be in his case, I have no idea.) Clever ideas with language should be used very, very carefully, and if you think that carefully about language, you aren't on TVTropes because the sight of it will make you want to scrub your eyes with a toothbrush.
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Sep 20, 2013 21:24
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Apple Tree posted:
I was thinking a Brillo pad -- unless the toothbrush is soaked in bleach.
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Sep 20, 2013 22:01
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Riddley Walker is pretty smart about creating a future language. Circumcision is 100% patriarchy; it's generally done because of either Judaism, Islam, or 19th century US ideas about "social hygiene" (as an anti-masturbation and anti-STI measure). Women didn't play a big role in creating any of those philosophies, particularly as they relate to genitalia. And thanks, everyone, for the "nakama" information!
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Sep 20, 2013 23:13
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Obligatory reminder of the classic F+ episode on TroperTales, which should probably go in the original post.
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Sep 21, 2013 01:02
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Build Your Own Boat posted:Um...Core Blimey...what-what. Chim Chim Cheree? Ah, Karalora. She's TVTropes "resident feminist" who I brought up earlier in this thread as defending DA Student's "feminist game concept".
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Sep 21, 2013 01:13
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What is so painfully funny is that they already have a cant of their own, as I mentioned earlier  "I fancy that bishonen, his tsundre look gives me unintended consequences." You've got your mary-sue, your own crazy rear end language but the sentence (while strange) has enough context clues for a reader to get the gist. It'd be perfect for TVtropes and better than what that guy does.
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Sep 21, 2013 01:29
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Shbobdb posted:What is so painfully funny is that they already have a cant of their own, as I mentioned earlier It's like the slang used by criminals in Victorian Britain, except instead of helping them to evade the police it's used to help them evade decency and good taste.
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Sep 21, 2013 03:28
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TV Tropes hasn't created Nadsat - its unintentionally created 1984's Newspeak. Think about it. TV Tropes takes complex, nuanced ideas and compresses them into bite-sized phrases, destroying the meanings and any nuance they may have ever had. "Alex DeLarge is portrayed as a psychopath who robs, rapes, and assaults innocent people chosen at random for his own amusement" becomes "Alex DeLarge is a Complete Monster Jerkass Woobie Evil is Sexy Anti-Hero.", and all the meaning in the first sentence is completely lost to anybody who reads it. "“Don't you see that the whole aim of Tv Tropes is to narrow the range of thought? In the end we shall make thought-crime literally impossible, because there will be no words in which to express it." - Fast Eddie.
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Sep 21, 2013 03:45
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Scrappy Mechanic is a page listing every single mechanic from video games that irritates Tropers. What's that, they have a real life section? Let's see what they put-quote:Involuntary public erections are horribly embarrassing at best, and they could get you put on the sex offenders register if it happens in the presence of children, even though they can be caused by a variety of things other than sexual arousal, such as a full bladder or friction from clothing. . . . Okaaaaay then, TvTropes. Guess we know what your priority is.
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Sep 21, 2013 05:30
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Who the hell was Spice World made for? TV Tropes has no idea. They get there in the end, kind of. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UncertainAudience. quote:Spice World. The Nostalgia Chick comments on how she has no idea who it was being marketed towards, given that some of the jokes were clearly meant for adults (such as men in thongs and one of the girls suggesting that they get naked for a young boy in the hospital), but other jokes seemed more geared for kids, or at least would be unfunny to adults. Of course, you could make much the same point about the band themselves, so maybe the target audience was just "Spice Girls fans". Maybe. Maybe. We may never know.
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Sep 21, 2013 07:29
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Good lord, this is pure tropers.txt right here.ZI Ltoid 1991 posted:I'm actually a fan of the genre I going to deconstruct (shounen, with some elements from western superhero comics), and I think those people make the best deconstructions who're actually the fans of the genre.
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Sep 21, 2013 23:48
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You hear that? That's the sound of Derrida turning in his grave.
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Sep 21, 2013 23:53
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I always threat tropes with respect.
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Sep 21, 2013 23:54
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Is anybody here actually prepared to explain what the original definition of deconstruction is?
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Sep 22, 2013 00:07
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DStecks posted:Is anybody here actually prepared to explain what the original definition of deconstruction is? Considering Derrida could never actually give a coherent definition (to the point that Michel Foucault accused him of being deliberately abstruse so as to deflect all criticism), it's pretty much whatever you want it to be. He did claim there were things that deconstruction wasn't, and pretty much every use of the term on TV Tropes falls into that category. So there is that. Vincent Van Goatse fucked around with this message at 00:16 on Sep 22, 2013 |
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Sep 22, 2013 00:13
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^^^Also;ZI Ltoid 1991 posted:Satires are basically deconstructions. No, they're satires. That's why they have their own definition and everything. Tropers love to use academic sounding words without understanding their meaning or context.
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Sep 22, 2013 00:21
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TV Tropes can be summed up in four words: cargo cult media criticism.
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Sep 22, 2013 00:26
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DStecks posted:Is anybody here actually prepared to explain what the original definition of deconstruction is? Vincent Van Goatse posted:TV Tropes can be summed up in four words: cargo cult media quote:We are also not a wiki for bashing things. Once again, we're about celebrating fiction, not showing off how snide and sarcastic we can be.
Sham bam bamina! fucked around with this message at 00:48 on Sep 22, 2013 |
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Sep 22, 2013 00:30
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| # ? May 25, 2024 00:25 |
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Sham bam bamina! posted:To my extremely cursory knowledge, it's a school of analysis that treats an author's cultural and personal assumptions as part of their text itself and seeks to perfectly understand each element of the text in terms of its relation to every other element. And I might be wrong about this part, but I think that it's also understood that this kind of perfect understanding is fundamentally impossible because of the reader's own cultural and personal assumptions, but that it's still an ideal to be pursued. Yeah, deconstruction's one of those concepts that has sides: either you absolutely love it and tend to go into a reverie rather than explaining if someone asks you about it, or you don't love it and struggle to articulate it. I don't love it, it pisses me off, so I'm outside it. But one of its key elements is the absolute opposite of troping: it resists definitions. Derrida argued that to define anything was to create a hierarchy - that to say something is X is to say it's not-X, and the human tendency is to say that either X is better than not-X or vice versa. So, take the 'western superhero comics' they mentioned. Superman stands for 'truth, justice and the American Way'. Right there you have a hierarchy: to accept Superman, you have to accept that 'the American Way' is superior to other ways, and from there, you work towards imperialism. The Internet-stupid solution would be to draw a Superman comic where the American Way is bad. Derrida wouldn't be for that either, because that just reverses the hierarchy and now somebody else is on the bottom. A deconstruction would be a take in which you recognise that 'the American Way' is a hierarchical concept, and hence unstable - you show ways in which the text both supports and contradicts the hierarchy. But it's the concept of hierarchy you're against, not America itself. People call Watchmen a deconstruction, and you could argue the case, thought I don't know what Derrida would say. But it does present superheroes as both noble and ignoble, protective and destructive, strong and weak, just and unjust, and so on, and contains in Dr Manhattan an alternative to the hierarchies in which you're simply detached and above any given outcome. It's not because it's got swears in it. Deconstruction is about creative uncertainty, and about undermining definitions as much as possible. Troping, on the other hand, is what MinistryofLard said - it's about creating a Newspeak in which everything is pre-defined until all uncertainty is eliminated. They deserve to be haunted. (I wouldn't say that nerd Newspeak is unique to TVTropes. I've always hated 'grok' for that reason - so many people use it to mean 'I'm far too innocent to understand basic human behaviour, I just don't grok it, so asking me to be reasonable is rejecting my true self!' But TVTropes is the Mecca of nerd Newspeak.) Or, if you ask TVTropes: quote:Jacques Derrida (July 15, 1930 – October 9, 2004), was a Jewish Frenchman born in Algeria who popularised the term Deconstruction. Amusingly enough he was originally named "Jackie" after the famous actor Jackie Coogan, but changed it to the more proper Jacques when he moved to France. Because yeah, let's start with what's important here. And let's end properly too: quote:Naturally, a lot of people found all of this really annoying. Always a controversial figure, Derrida has often been accused of being trivial or needlessly confusing, but remains highly influential within the arts and humanities. Which are not, of course, what we're studying here. The one thing you could say tropers and deconstructionists have in common is that they both have a one-size-fits-all approach, and a bad deconstructionist can be nearly as annoying as a troper, in a more rarefied way. But that's not Derrida's fault, that's just stupid people ruining everything.
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Sep 22, 2013 08:38
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