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The primary antagonist is the human heart. So deep.
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Sep 21, 2013 17:20
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Which Cersei? Book Cersei is an irredeemable monster. Show Cersei, thanks to the new scenes they've thrown in since they're not restricting themselves to POV characters, less so. One of the most interesting elements of watching the show has been seeing the Cerseis diverge. I'm curious whether they'll bring her back to monster mode at some point or keep making her more and more sympathetic. If they want to go total evil, the obvious moment would be after Joffrey kicks it, but I could also see them playing that as "aggrieved mother" like they did Cat's final moments at the end of the Red Wedding.
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Sep 21, 2013 17:41
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The primary antagonist is George RR Martin. It is by his will alone events are set into motion. It is by the sauce of buffalos that thoughts acquire speed, the lips acquire stains, stains become a warning.
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Sep 21, 2013 17:46
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Fatkraken posted:The Primary Antagonist is the entire Aristocracy and the system that means if one rich guy kills one other rich guy, it's suddenly perfectly OK to fling a hundred thousand innocent farmers and fishermen into a meatgrinder. Even the "good guys" are willing to set in motion events which will kill tens of thousands for the sake of one or two posh people. Pre-Stoneheart Brotherhood were pretty good. :beric:
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Sep 21, 2013 17:48
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Blade_of_tyshalle posted:The primary antagonist is George RR Martin. It is by his will alone events are set into motion. It is by the sauce of buffalos that thoughts acquire speed, the lips acquire stains, stains become a warning. The final book will give new meaning to "death of the author"
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Sep 21, 2013 17:54
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The problem with both Cersei and Jamie is that they're technically intelligent people but have very little self-awareness, thus they end up doing all this short-sighted, boneheaded poo poo but they still think they're clever because they can get away with it for the most part. Jamie getting his hand lopped off forced some introspection on him, and I think he's finally starting to realize how much of his actions were actually influenced by his subconscious and unfounded assumptions; he had to have his identity stripped away to see what he truly was. Cersei might be getting to that place as well: she's lost her power, her dignity, what she sees as her beauty, and Jamie. With everything that mattered to her gone, it'll be up to her to see if she can make an identity from what's left, or retreat further into bitterness. Unfortunately she's always been more petty, insecure, and cruel than her siblings. I think there's a chance for her, but it's not a very good one.
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Sep 21, 2013 20:38
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I think it's likely Cersei will die before long so there's not much time for her to be redeemed.
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Sep 21, 2013 22:22
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Maybe if Cerci had not just been handed the keys to Ser Robert Strong. Now that she has immunity from prosecution I think she is going to get worse instead of better.
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Sep 22, 2013 00:08
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Blind Melon posted:Maybe if Cerci had not just been handed the keys to Ser Robert Strong. Now that she has immunity from prosecution I think she is going to get worse instead of better. I really want Cleganebowl, though I know it would wrap up multiple important threads a little too cleanly for that card to be played in the beginning/middle of TWOW. Cersei's immediate future is one of the few things where I can't bet money on what is going to happen, but I trust GRRM to see things through in the best way possible.
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Sep 22, 2013 00:18
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Crisco Kid posted:The problem with both Cersei and Jamie is that they're technically intelligent people but have very little self-awareness, thus they end up doing all this short-sighted, boneheaded poo poo but they still think they're clever because they can get away with it for the most part. Jamie getting his hand lopped off forced some introspection on him, and I think he's finally starting to realize how much of his actions were actually influenced by his subconscious and unfounded assumptions; he had to have his identity stripped away to see what he truly was. She still has Tommen. Maybe she'll get him that lion they keep in Casterly Rock and she'll get eaten.
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Sep 22, 2013 01:26
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Merlinicus posted:Is there actually a consensus that Cersei is redeemable? I wouldn't be surprised if it not only never happens, but she eventually becomes the primary antagonist to the final central plot arc. No. She just needs to loving die. She's done far too much stuff during the course of the story to be redeemable as far as I am concerned.
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Sep 22, 2013 02:26
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Redemption isn't really a thing in this story. As long as she is interesting and the plot allows she should stay.
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Sep 22, 2013 02:46
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I feel bad for Cersei, not because her actions deserve pity but because there are occasional hints that she could have been a much better person had things happened slightly differently. I think any "redemption arc" is going to have to involve Cersei going as low as she can go and confronting past mistakes. I don't think she will be able to atone for all her actions but she may be able to adjust her future behavior into a slightly more sane direction. I'm not sure how much worse Cersei's paranoia and insanity can get. There doesn't seem to be anywhere to go but up.
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Sep 22, 2013 03:42
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I don't think Cersei will ever be redeemed, I just don't think she was put in a position to be anything besides a slimeball and that isn't her fault
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Sep 22, 2013 03:46
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QuoProQuid posted:I think any "redemption arc" is going to have to involve Cersei going as low as she can go and confronting past mistakes.
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Sep 22, 2013 14:16
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Fatkraken posted:The Primary Antagonist is the entire Aristocracy and the system that means if one rich guy kills one other rich guy, it's suddenly perfectly OK to fling a hundred thousand innocent farmers and fishermen into a meatgrinder. Even the "good guys" are willing to set in motion events which will kill tens of thousands for the sake of one or two posh people. The High Sparrow. Faith-led peasant revolution? Sign me up. Westeros will be a workingman's paradise until Arya leads an army of Others to extinguish humanity.
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Sep 22, 2013 15:20
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The Little Kielbasa posted:The High Sparrow. Faith-led peasant revolution? Sign me up. Westeros will be a workingman's paradise until Arya leads an army of Others to extinguish humanity. Except that the High Sparrow will burn/hang the entire North for being filthy demon lovers. I agree that he seems like a comparatively good guy now, but that's mostly just because he is giving Cersei a bad time. He's already got a quasi-Inquisition going, it wont be long until the Faith starts burning heretics. Although burning is more R'hllor's thing.
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Sep 22, 2013 15:24
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I don't know about that. I mean, I'm as "hurrrrr religion is dum" as any goon, but I haven't seen any evidence that The High Sparrow wants to launch a religious crusade against the North. The sparrow movement seems different than the other contenders for power in that it actually give a poo poo about the peasantry. Even if that's a lie, it's hard to see THS as worse than the secular alternatives. And I assume he's working with/for Varys, which would be some check on potential abuse.
The Little Kielbasa fucked around with this message at 16:37 on Sep 22, 2013 |
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Sep 22, 2013 16:31
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I'd never considered if the High Sparrow was working with Varys. That might make sense as one of Varys's efforts to destabilize the contenders for the Iron Throne in advance of Aegon's arrival. He could even be trying to set up a parallel to the original Aegon the Conqueror's arrival in Westeros, where the Faith of the Seven endorsed him - if the High Sparrow used his growing grassroots power to deem the Lannisters and Tyrells ungodly and call for the return of the Targaryens, Aegon might find his road to the iron throne considerably eased. And when it comes to aristocracy being good or bad, I'd say it's mostly the system that's to blame. Sure, the especially evil and abusive nobles are still evil and abusive, but the ones who mean well and try to be good are forced to play the game whether they want to or not. It's what happens when your authority and legitimacy springs from a perception of personal strength and leadership, especially when you mingle family life and politics - not going to war to avenge your father and put the rightful heir on the throne makes you look personally weak, which could also result in rebellion or invasion. It's better to judge nobles (as with pretty much everyone in ASoIaF) by the good they try to do despite the limits of their position in society.
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Sep 22, 2013 16:58
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QuoProQuid posted:I feel bad for Cersei, not because her actions deserve pity but because there are occasional hints that she could have been a much better person had things happened slightly differently. Could you name one because I'm drawing a blank here. If Cerci being Cerci is not her fault than nothing anyone does is ever their fault. Ramsay can blame his parents and Reek. The Mountain his headaches. Tywin his childhood trauma from his father. And so on and forth.
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Sep 22, 2013 17:41
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Cersei doesn't simply make "bad choices". She's not Ned or Catelyn, doing what seems right at the time but is kind of boneheaded since you have more information than they do. Cersei makes "bad choices" because she's delusional, arrogant, and more than a little ignorant. She makes bad choices because she's willfully incapable of making good ones.
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Sep 22, 2013 17:47
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She also gets off on ordering people to murder puppies.
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Sep 22, 2013 17:51
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Literally. She also told Jamie to kill Arya. I don't even try to spell names right anymore. iOs autocorrect has ruined me.
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Sep 22, 2013 18:36
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Rewatching the show with a Summer Child at the moment, it's interesting seeing his reactions. He was spoiled on Ned Dies 'cause of the internet, and Drogo dropping dead from a boo-boo, he also knew there would be dragons and had picked up a few bits and bobs about the second season but is a complete blank slate for season 3, which we've just started. Hand chop elicited a good reaction, we'll be doing Drogon fucks up Astapor tonight and probably get to the Bear and the Maiden Fair today or tomorrow, and the Red Wedding before the end of the week. He keeps asking "where is this? What's going on?" during the Theon bits which I suppose is what they were going for and he hasn't twigged that Barry is the bastard of Bolton. He also thinks that maybe Dany is going to get some ships and team up with the Starks... Fatkraken fucked around with this message at 13:37 on Sep 23, 2013 |
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Sep 23, 2013 13:32
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Fatkraken posted:He also thinks that maybe Dany is going to get some ships and team up with the Starks... It can still happen!
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Sep 23, 2013 13:36
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Fatkraken posted:He also thinks that maybe Dany is going to get some ships and team up with the Starks... Not the first time I've heard that. I hope the mass-crucifixions and banishing Jorah will get some of the  Khaleesi~~ people to rename their daughters to something normal. Not all, but some.
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Sep 23, 2013 14:12
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Fatkraken posted:he hasn't twigged that Barry is the bastard of Bolton. Ser Barristan is Roose's bastard?! 
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Sep 23, 2013 14:44
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Blade_of_tyshalle posted:Ser Barristan is Roose's bastard?! 
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Sep 23, 2013 15:34
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Someone really needs to buy Alfie Allen one of those.
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Sep 23, 2013 19:31
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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So... he wears a shirt with his own name on it? Man, I don't get Game of Thrones at all.
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Sep 23, 2013 21:32
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MrBims posted:Not the first time I've heard that. I hope the mass-crucifixions and banishing Jorah will get some of the You don't think those Meereen slavers who nailed those kids up didn't deserve what came to them? Sure Khaleesi may be a bit of a goofy name, but people who did that have already seen that Dany has a capacity for cruel justice. See Astapor, Mirri Maz Duur, etc etc.
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Sep 24, 2013 05:36
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The audience has a lot of tolerance for brutal justice so long as the character appears competent, strong and has momentum on their side. So far in the show Dany's spent the whole time clawing her way up from nothing, constantly on the move, growing her army and killing every rear end in a top hat that gets in her way - all fairly straightforward and entertaining for a TV audience, especially when anyone else with a shred of audience sympathy gets stalemated and shanked. The second season and Qarth was a drag for a lot of people I know, but season 3 and probably all of season 4 are pretty much the peak of Dany's material. It'll really only be when/if the whole Mereen situation sets in and then drags on that people will start to lose patience. It was bad enough for book-readers, but TV has an especially hard time with arcs that are deliberately frustrating and meant to show the weaknesses of a character (reference: people annoyed last season at the Ramsay and Theon scenes because they succeeded at dragging on and being disorienting). I'll be interested to see what they do to salvage that particular arc, although maybe if they only have to stretch it over a single season before Dany's The Winds of Winter material it'll just be like Qarth 2.0.
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Sep 24, 2013 06:53
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I've said it before, but politicking, intrigue, and backstabbing are this show's bread and butter and I expect the Meereen stuff to play much better on TV. Also if you read AFFC and ADWD combined, Meereen is one of the many problems with the two books that melts away. It actually moves at a steady, escalating pace, and the TV show won't cockblock us by ending right before everything explodes in the giant battle that we've been building to. Honestly the #1 fault with those books was the dumbshit decision to separate them out by character.
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Sep 24, 2013 17:43
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CapnAndy posted:I've said it before, but politicking, intrigue, and backstabbing are this show's bread and butter and I expect the Meereen stuff to play much better on TV. I particularly like the contrast between Cersei and Dany, in that both are loving everything up but only one of them is fully aware of it.
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Sep 24, 2013 18:02
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CapnAndy posted:
I don't have an e-reader, so I'm actually tempted to buy some cheap secondhand copies of the paperback editions of AFFC and ADWD and do a razorblade-and-binding-glue physical version of Ball of Beasts. It would probably end up as three volumes.
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Sep 24, 2013 18:36
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CapnAndy posted:I've said it before, but politicking, intrigue, and backstabbing are this show's bread and butter and I expect the Meereen stuff to play much better on TV. I don't think that was the biggest problem. The larger problem was mainly in ADWD cutting out two climactic battles/scenes to finish the book. If they'd moved like 100 pages of ADWD back to AFFC and then put those two battles back into ADWD, I think things would have evened out quite well.
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Sep 24, 2013 23:24
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Fatkraken posted:I don't have an e-reader, so I'm actually tempted to buy some cheap secondhand copies of the paperback editions of AFFC and ADWD and do a razorblade-and-binding-glue physical version of Ball of Beasts. It would probably end up as three volumes. Do you have a smartphone or tablet you can use? Because something like the Kindle app or Stanza works fine. The Little Kielbasa posted:I don't know about that. I mean, I'm as "hurrrrr religion is dum" as any goon, but I haven't seen any evidence that The High Sparrow wants to launch a religious crusade against the North. The sparrow movement seems different than the other contenders for power in that it actually give a poo poo about the peasantry. Even if that's a lie, it's hard to see THS as worse than the secular alternatives. And I assume he's working with/for Varys, which would be some check on potential abuse. The High Sparrow working with Varys is something I hadn't considered, but actually makes a lot of sense. I'm quite looking forward to (hopefully) finding out what he's been up to for the past two books.
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Sep 25, 2013 06:56
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webmeister posted:Do you have a smartphone or tablet you can use? Because something like the Kindle app or Stanza works fine. I have a broken laptop that I've repurposed as a desktop and Nothing Else. But I rather like physical books, and it would be a fun little craft project if I can find copies for super cheap. Me and the Summer Child should be getting to the Red wedding tonight. He's pretty sure that Mrs Robb (can't remember her show name) is gonna bite it, but I don't think he's prepared for just how much of a disaster is around the corner. Fatkraken fucked around with this message at 11:27 on Sep 25, 2013 |
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Sep 25, 2013 11:25
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Dolash posted:The audience has a lot of tolerance for brutal justice so long as the character appears competent, strong and has momentum on their side. So far in the show Dany's spent the whole time clawing her way up from nothing, constantly on the move, growing her army and killing every rear end in a top hat that gets in her way - all fairly straightforward and entertaining for a TV audience, especially when anyone else with a shred of audience sympathy gets stalemated and shanked. The second season and Qarth was a drag for a lot of people I know, but season 3 and probably all of season 4 are pretty much the peak of Dany's material. I think the show will treat the whole atmosphere around her differently. Just so far, the show's managed to take out a lot of Dany's poor decisions and frustrations and instead portray her as a Christ-type superwoman. In the books, I got the impression that she went from broken little girl, to a brief moment of belonging as Drogo's Khaleesi, and then after that everything goes downhill as she uses her dragons over and over to bargain for and show power and fucks up every decision that she has to make herself. As the story progresses further she becomes a sad, sad stereotype with her over-emotional outbursts and ~~Darrrioooo <3~. The show's done a good job at making her likeable and a general force to be reckoned with. The only bitterness is that we know "the truth" from reading the books. That's what I think her storyline is going to be one of the biggest departures from the book. Not 'what' events happen, but how they happen, and how we are supposed to feel about her.
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Sep 25, 2013 15:38
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Baldbeard posted:In the books, I got the impression that she went from broken little girl, to a brief moment of belonging as Drogo's Khaleesi, and then after that everything goes downhill as she uses her dragons over and over to bargain for and show power and fucks up every decision that she has to make herself. As the story progresses further she becomes a sad, sad stereotype with her over-emotional outbursts and ~~Darrrioooo <3~. I think you're being a little harsh on the fucks up every major decision. Shes actually not doing too badly as far as decision by people in power go in these books.
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Sep 25, 2013 16:17
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