|
How significant was Cable Street, anyhow? The Public Order Act of 1936 seems like it would have been more effective at getting uniformed fascists off the streets. What happened to the BUF afterwards? It doesn't seem like Britain went particularly fascist. The splendor of fascism(these guys always have a militaristic spectacle in their demonstrations) is probably a large part of its allure. It's fantastic and exciting and different. Take that away and maybe people begin to evaluate them more on a matter of their political positions.
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2013 23:48
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 26, 2024 11:40 |
|
|
staticman posted:Violence is ONLY good as a last resort, and I realize that if leftist and the oppressed retaliate, it's gonna be a full blown extermination against them. There must be better solutions than violence and peaceful protesting, as GD and the police will steamroll both. Cool story, however it's completely irrelevant. By all means, attempt to re-enact the mistakes of the Reichsbanner Schwarz-Rot-Gold and Roter Frontkämpfer-Bund, just don't be surprised when somehow the cops once again end up arresting way more leftists for it then literal fascists.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2013 23:49
|
|
|
Install Windows posted:Cool story, however it's completely irrelevant. By all means, attempt to re-enact the mistakes of the Reichsbanner Schwarz-Rot-Gold and Roter Frontkämpfer-Bund, just don't be surprised when somehow the cops once again end up arresting way more leftists for it then literal fascists. I'm not advocating an offensive campaign against the Fascist (as much as we all would love to see the Fash get bashed) and it would be suicide if that happened, I'm simply asking what can be done. I there I wouldn't there's going to be sanctions against Greece if GD and police start start moving to the extermination phase of genocide.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2013 23:58
|
|
|
http://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/20...lking+Greece%29 Tension was high at the antifa protest that was taking place at Kalogiron Square outside the metro station “Dafni” in Athens on Friday evening. Some 500 people had gathered to protest the stabbing of left musician Pavlos Fyssas by a member of extreme-right Golden Dawn. Suddenly a young man on motorbike approach the crowd and started to turn rounds. According to Greek media, protesters started to ask him questions about his ideological and political beliefs. They managed to encircled him. The man suddenly took out a gun and fired three shots in the air. Allegedly to scare the crowd and free himself from the protesters. Citing police sources, media report that the man was a special guard (policeman) off duty and that he had used his service weapon. He was taken to police station in Dafni and is being currently interrogated.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2013 23:59
|
|
|
The Greek police are actually taking disciplinary action against a GD officer? Finally some light in the abyss. 
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2013 00:03
|
|
|
staticman posted:I'm not advocating an offensive campaign against the Fascist (as much as we all would love to see the Fash get bashed) and it would be suicide if that happened, I'm simply asking what can be done. I there I wouldn't there's going to be sanctions against Greece if GD and police start start moving to the extermination phase of genocide. There's several things that can/need to happen to effectively fight off Golden Dawn. First, they need to be exposed for the scum they are. They are doing plenty of this on their own, but whatever media protection they have needs to go. Second, the police force needs to be neutralised. By this I literally mean "made neutral". It is a very valuable asset for the Golden Dawn as thanks to police support/overlap they can get away with a lot of things they do, while anti-fascists see zero tolerance. How this would happen is a mystery. Finally, and most importantly, the economy needs to recover, which requires an end to the doctrine of endless austerity. As long as people live in an economic depression as the one Greece is experiencing they'll be pushed to extremism, and forces such as the Golden Dawn will always receive support.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2013 00:05
|
|
|
staticman posted:The Greek police are actually taking disciplinary action against a GD officer? Finally some light in the abyss. More likely, they wanted to get him off the streets before he got torn to pieces, and the "interrogation" is them just sitting on him till things cool off a little.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2013 00:12
|
|
|
Well, looks like they're actually going to ban them. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323808204579086964287464066.html ATHENS—Greece is moving to effectively outlaw the extreme-right Golden Dawn party by asking prosecutors to declare it a criminal organization, days after police say a self-professed member confessed to killing a left-wing rap artist. The government presented prosecutors with a legal file late Thursday that it says shows Golden Dawn acted as an organized criminal gang—a felony under Greece's penal code—and declaring it a threat to public order. The file is based on some 30 previous cases over the past year where members or followers of the party—which is known for its extremist views and tactics against immigrants, gays and political rivals—have been charged with illegal acts, Party chief Nikos Mihaloliakos has described the government's actions as a "witch hunt" and, on Friday, Golden Dawn lawmaker Ilias Kasidiaris said the party would sue Public Order Minister Nikos Dendias and others for defamation. The impetus for the government action was the slaying early Wednesday of 34-year-old rapper Pavlos Fyssas. The police investigation has allegedly found a direct link between the party and the killing, a senior government official familiar with the matter said.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2013 13:32
|
|
|
a bad enough dude posted:Well, looks like they're actually going to ban them. Yeah, but who's going to enforce that ban?
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2013 13:43
|
|
|
staticman posted:Violence is ONLY good as a last resort, and I realize that if leftist and the oppressed retaliate, it's gonna be a full blown extermination against them. There must be better solutions than violence and peaceful protesting, as GD and the police will steamroll both. That's the exact logic used by the centre-left in Germany, though. The "moderates" in the SPD had a history of complying with the authorities and accepting that the state was a tool that would repress leftism, therefore they supported giving more power to the right wing through supporting the terrible Weimar Republic, with its Reich President who ruled with dictatorial powers, rather than throw in with the KPD in creating a legitimately democratic state. I don't see how anyone can look at the repression carried out by the right in Germany and conclude that the left should have been more timid.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2013 18:02
|
|
|
Cute how you ignore the whole thing that was going on with Stalin attempting to pull the strings in the KPD at the time, which the SPD were obviously not too keen on.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2013 18:16
|
|
|
Install Windows posted:Cute how you ignore the whole thing that was going on with Stalin attempting to pull the strings in the KPD at the time, which the SPD were obviously not too keen on. The SPD were being disgusting opportunists long before Stalin was a factor. From The Coming of the Third Reich by Richard Evans: The power to rule by decree was only intended for exceptional emergencies. But Ebert, as the Republic's first President, made very extensive use of this power, employing it on no fewer than 136 separate occasions. He deposed legitimately elected governments in Saxony and Thuringia when they threatened, in his view, to foment disorder. Even more dangerously, during the 1920 civil war in the Ruhr he issued a backdated decree applying the death penalty to public-order offences and retrospectively legitimising many of the summary executions that had already been carried out on members of the Red Army by units of the Free Corps and the regular army. It was significant that on both occasions these powers were used to suppress perceived threats to the Republic from the left, whereas they went virtually unused against what many saw as the far greater threat to it posed by the right.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2013 18:28
|
|
|
Yeah you might want to reread that so you can comprehend it this time. It's almost like acting out as a leftist was a great way to be killed in Germany and previous attempts to enact full revolution in that manner were brutally repressed.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2013 18:32
|
|
|
Install Windows posted:Yeah you might want to reread that so you can comprehend it this time. It's almost like acting out as a leftist was a great way to be killed in Germany and previous attempts to enact full revolution in that manner were brutally repressed. A great way to be killed by "leftists" quote:Trophy-ko says: lmao
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2013 18:33
|
|
|
Install Windows posted:Cool story, however it's completely irrelevant. By all means, attempt to re-enact the mistakes of the Reichsbanner Schwarz-Rot-Gold and Roter Frontkämpfer-Bund, just don't be surprised when somehow the cops once again end up arresting way more leftists for it then literal fascists. What exactly were their mistakes? If you mean getting killed, then yeah there's no getting around that when fighting Nazis. If however, you mean the Nazis gaining real power, I'd lay the blame for that at the feet of the Hindenburgs, Meissner, Schleicher and von Papen for being absolutely retarded with their politicking.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2013 19:27
|
|
|
Install Windows posted:Yeah you might want to reread that so you can comprehend it this time. It's almost like acting out as a leftist was a great way to be killed in Germany and previous attempts to enact full revolution in that manner were brutally repressed. I'm pretty sure he's claiming that the collaboration of the SPD with the right is what condened the left. Stalin is somewhat irrelevant because the SPD was actively working with the right since at least they gave their unanimous support to the first world war. Again, bashing leftists for what basically defending themselves ignores the center-left social democrats (or liberals in the U.S.) simply putzing around desperatly searching for a middle ground and always siding with the right. Since center leftists have a mind of their own they should also be responsible for their actions. In fact, when you look at the last two decades of European politics, the center-left should be considered in even worse terms than the right.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2013 23:49
|
|
|
Raskolnikov38 posted:What exactly were their mistakes? If you mean getting killed, then yeah there's no getting around that when fighting Nazis. If however, you mean the Nazis gaining real power, I'd lay the blame for that at the feet of the Hindenburgs, Meissner, Schleicher and von Papen for being absolutely retarded with their politicking. The "fighting leagues" of the political parties ended up allowing everyone to paint each other as dangerous violent people terrorizing the streets. All of these groups, from all sides, did a lot more "pre-emptive" and just plain unprovoked violence than they ever did plain self-defense. This combined with existing distrust and anti-democratic sentiment (and it should never be underestimated just how much of that there was then! tons of Germans were all about reducing things back to the pseudo-democracy available under the Kaiser's rule) to make "we must protect ourselves from those leftists" even more of the German public than otherwise - this was also why rightist unprovoked violence tended to be glossed over. Mans posted:I'm pretty sure he's claiming that the collaboration of the SPD with the right is what condened the left. Stalin is somewhat irrelevant because the SPD was actively working with the right since at least they gave their unanimous support to the first world war. The SPD generally saw it as the hard right's desire to bring back Kaiser-esque monarchy in control and the KPD's ever increasing tendency to obeying Stalin as essentially the same thing - and since their entire point is to have democracy obviously they didn't want either. You're not "basically" defending yourselves when you have organized street gangs who go around starting fights just for the hell of it, which is what all of the "fighting leagues" did, sorry. Again, we're talking about the lead up to Hitler here, which involved over a decade of stuff past the German civil war. Nintendo Kid fucked around with this message at 00:20 on Sep 22, 2013 |
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2013 00:06
|
|
|
Mans posted:Again, bashing leftists for what basically defending themselves ignores the center-left social democrats (or liberals in the U.S.) simply putzing around desperatly searching for a middle ground and always siding with the right. Mans posted:Since center leftists have a mind of their own they should also be responsible for their actions. In fact, when you look at the last two decades of European politics, the center-left should be considered in even worse terms than the right.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2013 00:15
|
|
|
Omi-Polari posted:According to what terms? According to communists. Liberals and centrists tend to get fired upon by both extremes because both fascists and communists consider them to be in league with the other.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2013 00:40
|
|
|
Fojar38 posted:According to communists. Because they literally were, see the above quotation.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2013 00:53
|
|
|
No, they literally weren't. I don't think it's really asking you too much to actually look into what the SPD at the time was - it contained both a very monarchy friendly wing, which Ebert was a part of and which had been in control of the party under the Empire due to the fact that the Kaisers were perfectly happy to interfere with political parties as well as the other wing which had participated in just those revolts and insurrections that Ebert covered putting down. Over the course of the Weimar period, most of the monarchy friendly wing drained off to the various restorationist/monarchic parties. Nintendo Kid fucked around with this message at 01:01 on Sep 22, 2013 |
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2013 00:54
|
|
|
Install Windows posted:No, they literally weren't. I don't think it's really asking you too much to actually look into what the SPD at the time was - it contained both a very monarchy friendly wing, which Ebert was a part of and which had been in control of the party under the Empire due to the fact that the Kaisers were perfectly happy to interfere with political parties as well as the other wing which had participated in just those revolts and insurrections that Ebert covered putting down. The above poster said liberals and centrists, anyone who participated in the Ruhr uprising wasn't a liberal or a centrist.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2013 01:04
|
|
|
In a thread about combating fascism the discussion is about why communists are utopian idiots and liberals are collaborationist scum. Does the right have this same problem?
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2013 01:10
|
|
|
Enjoy posted:The above poster said liberals and centrists, anyone who participated in the Ruhr uprising wasn't a liberal or a centrist. Then by your own argument the SPD was not a problem.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2013 01:11
|
|
|
Rent-A-Cop posted:In a thread about combating fascism the discussion is about why communists are utopian idiots and liberals are collaborationist scum. Does the right have this same problem? They've got a similar, though more muted one, wherein traditional conservative parties tend to view fascists as useful idiots to be used and then marginalized/disposed of, and fascists tend to view traditional conservatives as romantic nationalist morons who never get anything done. Among themselves, fascist parties also have a hard time cooperating due to national identity chauvinism being a pretty defining factor for fascist, and also as historically the elite of any given fascist party tend to be cretins with will to power, but little ability to competently and effectively use power once obtained. I don't know that they accuse each other of being traitors to the cause or seek to purge fellow travelers/deviationists as much as the left seems to, though. Captain_Maclaine fucked around with this message at 01:26 on Sep 22, 2013 |
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2013 01:16
|
|
|
e: ending the derail
Enjoy fucked around with this message at 01:21 on Sep 22, 2013 |
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2013 01:18
|
|
|
Rent-A-Cop posted:In a thread about combating fascism the discussion is about why communists are utopian idiots and liberals are collaborationist scum. Does the right have this same problem? It appears to be exactly the same on the other end of the political spectrum. "Only my extreme is the true path, and all you dirty, spineless, equivocating centrists enable the otherside through inaction!". However, this is at a rhetoric level, I can't pretend to know enough at politics to actually say whether centrists are better for one political spectrum or the other, but more that any given centralized power would be vested in maintaining and expanding what power it does have (until critical incompetency), so any political sect which is overt in the needs to remove that centralized power will be treated with animosity. So maybe it's not a truly conscious effort for liberals to support fascism and psuedofascist movements, but rather by being in power they are more threatened by extreme lefts willingness to depose them overtly, while fascists prefer to subvert the government as the conservative nature of the movement doesn't require significant change to the existing power structure?
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2013 01:25
|
|
|
Captain_Maclaine posted:They've got a similar, though more muted one, wherein traditional conservative parties tend to view fascists as useful idiots to be used and then marginalized/disposed of, and fascists tend to view traditional conservatives as romantic nationalist morons who never get anything done. Among themselves, fascist parties also have a hard time cooperating due to national identity chauvinism being a pretty defining factor for fascist, and also as historically the elite of any given fascist party tend to be cretins with will to power, but little ability to competently and effectively use power once obtained. There is also that during particularly the interwar period of Fascism, most of the countries where the Fascists eventually got power were either still monarchies or had just recently had a monarchy deposed. Most of the conservative parties involved were in favor of either continuing and strengthening an incumbent monarchy or in restoring a strong monarchy. They tended to view the fascist obsessions with blatantly authoritarian leaders as being perfectly compatible with bringing back powerful monarchies. Your typical conservative political party in interwar Europe would have loved to have a Hitler so long as that Hitler had a crown and a history of recent inbreeding. Similarly your fascists tended to be just peachy with having puppet royalty for legitimacy where necessary.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2013 01:34
|
|
|
"Subtle" isn't the word that I would use to describe fascists. The enemy of liberalism is extremism on either the left or the right. Really what it comes down to is determining which brand of extremism is the larger threat to a liberal society and that changes depending on circumstances. Liberals have allied with both fascists and communists if one of them got too strong or influential. It has nothing to do with finding either to be ideologically "better" because liberals don't like either, and everything to do with what is necessary to sustain and perpetuate liberalism.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2013 01:34
|
|
|
Omi-Polari posted:According to what terms? Install Windows posted:The SPD generally saw it as the hard right's desire to bring back Kaiser-esque monarchy in control and the KPD's ever increasing tendency to obeying Stalin as essentially the same thing - and since their entire point is to have democracy obviously they didn't want either.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2013 14:41
|
|
|
Install Windows posted:The "fighting leagues" of the political parties ended up allowing everyone to paint each other as dangerous violent people terrorizing the streets. All of these groups, from all sides, did a lot more "pre-emptive" and just plain unprovoked violence than they ever did plain self-defense. This combined with existing distrust and anti-democratic sentiment (and it should never be underestimated just how much of that there was then! tons of Germans were all about reducing things back to the pseudo-democracy available under the Kaiser's rule) to make "we must protect ourselves from those leftists" even more of the German public than otherwise - this was also why rightist unprovoked violence tended to be glossed over.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2013 16:50
|
|
|
It's like Rosa Luxemburg murder never happened or something?
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2013 17:51
|
|
|
Mans posted:The KDP was increasingly obeying Stalin because they were loving shot at on the streets by proto fascists and afterwards by actual fascists while the SPD did nothing by tip toe along the issue. They gave unanimous support for the first world war and for the curshing of the uprising of post-war. Of course the KDP would try to find foreign allies, they could actually search for one back then instead of slowly being stabbed to death one by one while liberals claimed their deaths to be tragic but their defensive actions to be as bad as fascist action. And that very foreign ally made them persona non grata in Germany. Plus you're still conflating late Empire SPD and late Weimar SPD pretty heavily even though they were at heart quite different parties due to the realities of power at the time.And the cute refrain returns that everyone except the KDP were liberals, which is actually quite adorable even though it has nothing to do with history.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2013 18:02
|
|
|
Rent-A-Cop posted:In a thread about combating fascism the discussion is about why communists are utopian idiots and liberals are collaborationist scum. Does the right have this same problem? Oh no, they are way more open about hating their allies. That said, from a non left-radical viewpoint I can get that it's confusing, but when one holds a revolutionary viewpoint, the ways and means of said revolution becomes pretty important and grounds for heated debate. A holder of a non-revolutionary viewpoint has it way easier, 'cause you can rest assured that nothing you opine on matters to the people who make the decisions.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2013 08:07
|
|
|
Tias posted:Oh no, they are way more open about hating their allies. That said, from a non left-radical viewpoint I can get that it's confusing, but when one holds a revolutionary viewpoint, the ways and means of said revolution becomes pretty important and grounds for heated debate. A holder of a non-revolutionary viewpoint has it way easier, 'cause you can rest assured that nothing you opine on matters to the people who make the decisions. That also true of a revolutionary viewpoint, at least in most places.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2013 08:15
|
|
|
Certainly, but the revolutionary viewpoint has the potential to abolish power structures.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2013 10:22
|
|
|
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24210061 Greek police generals resign after neo-Nazi killing. Thats scary. I didn't think such high ranking cops would be supporters of GD.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2013 20:50
|
|
|
bpower posted:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24210061 I didn't think they'd ever face any negative consequences for it.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2013 01:13
|
|
|
Regardless, I'm positively surprised they felt the pressure to quit, and didn't just dig in and prepare for a coup or something similarly unpleasant.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2013 06:42
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 26, 2024 11:40 |
|
|
It's all well and good that these fuckers got the boot, but the question is who they'll replace them with. If people this high up are GD sympathizers then it's pretty much certain that the problem isn't contained to the regular beat cops and that the police force is in fact shot through with fash from top to bottom, so where will you find competent, non-fascist people to replace them with? What I'm worried about is that they will just promote people who are just as big assholes as those who were suspended and pretend that everything is OK with that.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2013 08:41
|
|
