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I'm on the fence about being very worried and excited that the combat engine is being rewritten again. It just sounds like what happened to EX 2nd where it went through so many rewrites and had so many left overs from previous formats that it was left a hot mess afterwords.
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Sep 19, 2013 03:06
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I trust them with the combat engine completely, although the "superior opponents" rule sounds a bit hacky and I adamantly believe that exalts should regenerate 5m/round out of combat as well as in. If you ask me, there are two mechanical things to worry about: 1. Deliberately imbalanced chargen (disparity-producing BP/XP divide, traits that cost points in chargen but are free in game, etc) 2. The phrase "Martial Arts" being used to describe both an Ability (which is sometimes used to perform martial arts, but also sometimes used not to perform martial arts) and a type of Merit, and a type of "Technique", and a type of Charm
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Sep 19, 2013 03:10
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Excelsiortothemax posted:I'm on the fence about being very worried and excited that the combat engine is being rewritten again. It just sounds like what happened to EX 2nd where it went through so many rewrites and had so many left overs from previous formats that it was left a hot mess afterwords. The mock-up of the dodge charm tree gives me some hope that the system will be mechanically decent since it has more than five charms in it and I doubt it's just iterations of 'dodge better than the last charm'. I'm not expecting it to be great, but I'll be very surprised if I'm house-ruling things before I even start the first game. I'm more worried about things like Hero Rides Away or the Ebon Dragon charm tree that let you troll people's memories showing up in the core book (as opposed to at some much later date or in the form of 'hey here's some charms that people at our game table made up').
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Sep 19, 2013 07:11
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I just hope the vast majority of that dodge charm tree is available at say, Essence 3 and they aren't wasting a ton of time developing charms at a game level no one in their right mind plays at. Or they could make some of the higher essences actually playable instead of an escalating scale of ridiculous. That'd be okay too.
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Sep 19, 2013 19:13
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Pretty sure they've said they're not really interested in writing Essence 6+ charms, and that going above Essence 5 boosts your motes and your fighting skills without giving much in way of new powers (except for 1 or 2 unique-to-you charms that are huge and cool that they're not going to write).
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Sep 19, 2013 19:18
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mistaya posted:I just hope the vast majority of that dodge charm tree is available at say, Essence 3 and they aren't wasting a ton of time developing charms at a game level no one in their right mind plays at. From what I've read the devs want to do both of these things.
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Sep 19, 2013 19:32
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I'd be happy if they had a clear divide, even if it's a new book if high level charms built around Essence 6+
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Sep 19, 2013 19:53
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Excelsiortothemax posted:I'd be happy if they had a clear divide, even if it's a new book if high level charms built around Essence 6+ They've explicitly said they want to avoid that. They'd rather not create a caste of invincible NPCs that can break your stuff without you being able to do anything about it. Nobody likes to fight a creature that can only be hit with magic weapons when the GM never gives any out.
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Sep 20, 2013 13:48
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Excelsiortothemax posted:I'd be happy if they had a clear divide, even if it's a new book if high level charms built around Essence 6+ However you will also be able to beat the Essence 6 guy as an Essence 5 guy, given the power of friendship and/or treachery and/or Batman.
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Sep 20, 2013 17:05
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Nessus posted:
But how are you going to convince the Dragon-Blooded, the Infernal, and the Sidereal to work together in the first place?
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Sep 21, 2013 12:20
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Punting posted:[/b] If it's like the games I'm in, they have a threeway relationship. They may or may not also be all female.
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Sep 21, 2013 12:33
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Ferrinus posted:While they ran as far as possible from the actual no-bones(heh)-about-it rape powers that featured in the initial Abyssals preview, the Exalted writers appear to be clinging to the otherwise-harmless tastelessness with incredible tenacity. Given the Dracula and World of Darkness influences inherent in Abyssals I'd be surprised if sexual references ever go away completely. That said I'd also be surprised and disappointed if those sorts of charms ever amounted to "50%" of Abyssals content. There are nine published Deathlords, of which the Lover is one of them. Personally if I were the unlucky bastard tasked with cleaning those up I'd probably take a leaf from Dracula and allow the use blood-drinking as a metaphor. (Although I really hope the re-animation charm just disappears. That one was just plain not a good charm.) Anyway, I'm happy to see Breeding become less of a mandatory-if-you-don't-want-to-suck background. Good decision.
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Sep 21, 2013 13:56
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Skeletal/mummified Abyssals with precious jewels and metals pressed into their bones or hypnotic haunting occult tattoos on their shriveled skins should be totally capable of inspiring a lust for gold/jewels/unbidden tomes/etc. The idea of a haunting Abyssal that makes you desire things is cool, but the "oh yeah we didn't learn anything from how gross 2e ended up" overt sexuality-as-a-charm thing was a really lovely preview. lol I wonder how much of the charm rewrites that are going on right now are removing gross sexuality as components of powersets.
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Sep 21, 2013 20:24
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Mexcillent posted:
None of them. The Exalted designers and fanbase have both demonstrated that that's what they want in an Exalted book. Rape ghosts was effectively a test balloon; anyone who was bothered by that or anything else said by the designers in the aftermath dropped their pledge, so there's now a self-selected group of backers who range from indifferent to enthusiastic for that kind of content and are wholly willing to pay for it. If they want to sell supplements, why wouldn't they cater to the market they've already cultivated and their desires? People who were turned off by rapey content dropped their pledge; people who were turned on by it got their friends to invest in the kickstarter, and that ended up being a net positive for the team. If you don't think that this is what the designers want to write, I'd just remind you that it's "only rape if you Holden them down and stick it in".
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Sep 21, 2013 20:54
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Mexcillent posted:lol I wonder how much of the charm rewrites that are going on right now are removing gross sexuality as components of powersets. Sexuality in Exalted has been there since day one. Sexuality in Exalted powersets isn't a particularly new thing either. (People always forget the Sidereal Socialise tree that's been in the game since first edition, ironically enough, probably because it was well written.) I honestly don't think it's going to get dropped as a general thing. What made the proposed Abyssal charms a bad idea was including sexuality that was both direct and explicitly abusive in nature and the fact that it was written in a pretty hackneyed manner that played it up in the style of trashy porn novels. (And presenting it in a fashion that didn't make it very clear whether it was going to be a particularly major focus of a social charmset or just a minor charm branch, but primarily the abusive stuff itself.) Hidingo Kojimba fucked around with this message at 01:15 on Sep 22, 2013 |
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Sep 22, 2013 01:05
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Don't forget completely useless for anything other than abusive sexual relationships.
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Sep 22, 2013 01:29
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My biggest worry is that I know Hatewheel really likes Martial Arts and is going to end up with a Martial Arts Godstat. I don't want to be punished for not investing in MA, but the fact that Martial Arts has it's 'Martial Arts XP' or whatever it's called that isn't your normal XP you spend for Martial Arts charms makes it feel like you will have to favor MA or you're going to end up falling behind. I wouldn't worry as much but Hatewheel did write Cobra Style. The Rape charms frustrate me because, though I did back the kickstarter- and still do-, but I dislike them, and whenever people get mad at the development staff for not releasing spoilers, someone always goes 'Well we've proven we can't handle it with the Abyssal previews, you saw how people reacted to that.', and just shut their ears to the actual problems with it. I feel like it's this weird cycle where the developers could ease my fears about the 'Martial Arts God Stat' fear, but they don't want to and when I mention 'I wish they would' the fanbase goes 'well of course they aren't, look at how bad we (meaning everyone else) is.'
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Sep 22, 2013 01:38
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My biggest disappointment is that this whole debacle has made me realize how toxic the majority of the fanbase actually is. Well, actually. It's probably better to know sooner than later.
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Sep 22, 2013 01:41
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Stallion Cabana posted:My biggest worry is that I know Hatewheel really likes Martial Arts and is going to end up with a Martial Arts Godstat. From what I remember of the last round of spoilers the "martial arts XP" concept has been dropped and replaced with "Solar XP" (name subject to change) that can be spent on martial arts, spells or evocations.
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Sep 22, 2013 01:46
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Zereth posted:Don't forget completely useless for anything other than abusive sexual relationships. Eh. Even that I think can be made to work if written well enough. Just most writers aren't talented enough and should avoid anything that blatant. (Cash and Murder Games from the aforementioned Sidereal charm tree is basically an abusive relationship charm. It's just not inherently sexual and the imagery is mostly either metaphor or inferred from the rest of the charmset. Don't think it's ever had a peep of controversy.)
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Sep 22, 2013 02:04
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to me, the problem was, why in the world would you use those as the preview? Did they really have no other charms at all, period, they could use, other then those, to put in there? Infernals got those cool Adorjan based charms. Were there no Stealth charms for Abyssals? Then, it got worse when even Holden said 'Yeah, I wouldn't use these charms at my table.' Why the gently caress are you writing them then? Why pick charms you yourself wouldn't use as a preview for an entire splat?
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Sep 22, 2013 02:07
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Stallion Cabana posted:to me, the problem was, why in the world would you use those as the preview? Yeah, no idea what was going through their minds there. I suppose it's possible they really didn't have any other charms at all and those were the only coherent things on Hatewheel's hard-drive at the time to dump in a preview. I mean Abyssals is probably way forward in their release schedule. But maybe I'm just making excuses as a long time fan of the game. Anyway, it was a dumb idea and I really hope the next time they release any kind of promotional document whoever writes it will get a sufficiently ruthless editor to give it a look-over. Hidingo Kojimba fucked around with this message at 02:20 on Sep 22, 2013 |
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Sep 22, 2013 02:17
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I feel that it was completely intentional, that they knew what sort of poo poo they were stirring, and I'm also 95% sure that Holden was (poorly and offensively) arguing for John Morke's decision. Morke has made it perfectly clear on the official Exalted forum that he likes testing people by specifically choosing which information he's going to release, so that he can watch the reaction. The Lady charms was just another example of that. I'm not sure what information he got from it, save that there aren't enough people who care to worry about their opinion, so he's just going to go on ahead with the offensive bullshit. While Holden's opinion and position changed (and re-changed, and re-changed...), I didn't see anything like that from Morke, and he's the top dog on this.
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Sep 22, 2013 02:30
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Hidingo Kojimba posted:Eh. Even that I think can be made to work if written well enough. Just most writers aren't talented enough and should avoid anything that blatant. (Cash and Murder Games from the aforementioned Sidereal charm tree is basically an abusive relationship charm. It's just not inherently sexual and the imagery is mostly either metaphor or inferred from the rest of the charmset. Don't think it's ever had a peep of controversy.) The 1e Sideral charms were all about having to use your strange tools in creative ways to accomplish your goals (sometimes you couldn't really do so without being a horrible person), but the previewed abyssal charmtree just let you do a couple of very, very specific things with almost no flexibility.
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Sep 22, 2013 02:32
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BryanChavez posted:I feel that it was completely intentional, that they knew what sort of poo poo they were stirring, and I'm also 95% sure that Holden was (poorly and offensively) arguing for John Morke's decision. Morke has made it perfectly clear on the official Exalted forum that he likes testing people by specifically choosing which information he's going to release, so that he can watch the reaction. The Lady charms was just another example of that. I'm not sure what information he got from it, save that there aren't enough people who care to worry about their opinion, so he's just going to go on ahead with the offensive bullshit. While Holden's opinion and position changed (and re-changed, and re-changed...), I didn't see anything like that from Morke, and he's the top dog on this. Yeah, I've been wondering: do we have any reason to buy this, as opposed to calling bullshit on the puppetmaster defense? Even if it is true, why is it a defense and not juvenile asshattery?
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Sep 22, 2013 02:44
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It's basically an argument between being a lovely person, or being a lovely person who's also stupid. From what I've seen of Morke, it's the former, but there's no real reason to believe it can't be the latter - I'm just guessing from my brief interactions with him, along with what I've seen from his interactions with other. Holden is obviously both, that's not really a subject for debate.
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Sep 22, 2013 02:55
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So looking forward to this being out so people can judge it on content.
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Sep 22, 2013 03:12
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If only... there was some way... to preview the book's content...
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Sep 22, 2013 03:26
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Stephenls posted:So looking forward to this being out so people can judge it on content. I'm not saying the book will be bad. In fact if anything I'm thinking the opposite. I think it's going to be very good, there's a lot of things that have been suggested will be really good. But that doesn't mean I can't be upset about some ways the previews have been going, does it? I gave significant amounts of money to the kickstarter and I think it'll be a worthwhile investment to me, but in that same way, because I paid for the kickstarter, I feel I have a certain amount of right to go 'Well, the previews haven't been very good and there's been so little said I'm not even sure how much of the book is done'
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Sep 22, 2013 03:29
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Stephenls posted:So looking forward to this being out so people can judge it on content. Come on now. As Ferrinus humorously suggests, you guys have really brought that problem on yourselves with your dearth of actually giving us anything concrete about the content in question. And as I will suggest now, how I judge the content of your book means less than nothing about how I judge the content of the character of the people writing it.
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Sep 22, 2013 03:34
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Mind you, it's not like complaints about the apparent insistence of the devs to have a twelve-charm cascade of social powers that only work on people your character has sex with somehow stops being applicable if we have some more data on the combat system. Like, that is content, as far as we know. Similarly, I'm pretty well sure that when I crack the Ex3 book open I'm going to see a chargen system with flat trait purchases despite the fact that many in-play trait purchases have either scaling costs or no cost whatever, and bonus points whose dot exchange rates have only a vague resemblance to experience point costs. Writers who've bothered to comment at all have steadfastly stuck to their guns about this. So it's really not like people are getting all in a tizzy over stuff besides actual, literal content.
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Sep 22, 2013 03:39
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Stephenls posted:So looking forward to this being out so people can judge it on content. Don't want to get all 'Holden victim-blamey', but if you guys were going to get all butthurt about people thinking your game will have creepy, juvenile rape poo poo in it, why do a content preview full of creepy, juvenile rape poo poo? (Totes rhetorical. I know the answer to that question.)
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Sep 22, 2013 03:39
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Stephenls posted:So looking forward to this being out so people can judge it on content. As opposed to judging the previews by their content? Dude isn't wrong, Cash and Murder Games is the Manacle & Coin to Sex Ghost Prana's Savant & Sorcerer cover art. There's been so little information leaked, and when we do get stuff its not always encouraging. Martial Arts XP, hell everything Martial Arts, Infernals preview walkback, Abyssals's Charmset, Hatewheel's bureaucracy chat a few months back, Exalted vs. the WoD, etc. I really hope the book is great, I have a wandering peddler character concept that is going to make a fun Eclipse Caste I want to play. I'm just not willing to pony up cash on the brand name alone; I did that for all of 2e, not again. Ferrinus posted:Similarly, I'm pretty well sure that when I crack the Ex3 book open I'm going to see a chargen system with flat trait purchases despite the fact that many in-play trait purchases have either scaling costs or no cost whatever, and bonus points whose dot exchange rates have only a vague resemblance to experience point costs. Writers who've bothered to comment at all have steadfastly stuck to their guns about this. So it's really not like people are getting all in a tizzy over stuff besides actual, literal content. Is this actually confirmed? That's kind of unforgivably stupid at this point. I'll accept a 3-charm branch off Husband-Seducing Demon Dance that only works if you are wearing harem pants and grinding a metal pole if, in exchange, we can move entirely to a flat trait purchase system that is used in char-gen and for in-play advancement. Hatewheel gets something, we get something, it's a good deal. Calde fucked around with this message at 03:55 on Sep 22, 2013 |
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Sep 22, 2013 03:39
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Stephenls posted:So looking forward to this being out so people can judge it on content. The last tidbit you all gave us was a 1995 Powerpoint slide of probably-not-final dodge charm names in a definitely not final tree-format. So yeah, discussions are going to circle around to the last interesting thing until there's something new to care about. Also whatever the thinking behind that Lover tree was, you basically made anyone keeping their pledge after that point deal with having to defend themselves against some really ugly accusations of condoning rape-fantasy in elf games. We don't loving appreciate it.
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Sep 22, 2013 04:37
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I don't want to use the WW forums because I have players in the game who frequent them, but none of them have SA accounts. In addition to this, most of them are also the people I would be relying on for balance chat, and I want to surprise them rather then sap the fun out of the game. Goons of the Exalted Thread, would you guys be willing to look at some fluff and charms that I write to make sure they're decently balanced?
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Sep 22, 2013 05:08
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Stallion Cabana posted:I don't want to use the WW forums because I have players in the game who frequent them, but none of them have SA accounts. In addition to this, most of them are also the people I would be relying on for balance chat, and I want to surprise them rather then sap the fun out of the game. Is Brony Colt Cabana really posting on SA? In MY forum?
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Sep 22, 2013 05:32
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Winson_Paine posted:Is Brony Colt Cabana really posting on SA? In MY forum? I'm not a Brony, I lost a toxx to Serenio about Wrestlemania. Edit; you can ask Hulkamatt. He'll back me up, since it was in his sub-forum. Stallion Cabana fucked around with this message at 05:51 on Sep 22, 2013 |
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Sep 22, 2013 05:43
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Stallion Cabana posted:I'm not a Brony, I lost a toxx to Serenio about Wrestlemania. Hahah, don't sweat it. Although if you ARE the actual Colt Cabana you nearly clocked my ex with a chair once.
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Sep 22, 2013 06:09
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Winson_Paine posted:Hahah, don't sweat it. Although if you ARE the actual Colt Cabana you nearly clocked my ex with a chair once. I am not, unfortunately, I think Senerio just likes him so he picked him as the 'pony' of choice.
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Sep 22, 2013 06:11
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So, CM Punk is obviously a Zenith Caste, I think we all know that. I feel that Danielson is our violent, brutal Dawn, and El Generico is our mysterious and flippy as gently caress Night. I'd want Colt Cabana, given his podcast and general appearance of being a friendly, amiable and fun-loving guy, to be our Eclipse. I'm stuck on who takes the Twilight slot, here, though.
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Sep 22, 2013 06:19
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